385 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

I belive that you are making some rather unfounded assumptions Beren082. You claim that a king/queen is above all else a symbol. While this may be true in present day Europe, I wonder what you base assumption on. In the medieval world the norm was that the King was the ruler, not some figurehead symbol, at least if the King had the strength to be it. And that includes being able to keep the throne by whatever reason needs be.



I also think it is unfair to claim that Anora would make a terrible queen, as most game endings where she rules I have seen mentions her being a very good and effective ruler.



I know a lot of us are grown up on idealized fantasy where the true King is a great moral figurehead and all that, but I still belive that in real life Alistair would make a worse King just because he doesn't want to be King. A leader who does not want to be a leader may sound like a a model for the dream of the incorruptible leader, but in my view it hardly ever works. Alistair would probably be open for manipulation simply because he could not be bothered with learning all the political wheelings and dealings going on around him.



To me Anora is akin to Elizabeth I of England. Elizabeth I refused to marry anyone so she wouldn't have to hand over the reigns to a man. She used her political skills to survive all her contenders, had her sister murdered on dubious charges and ended up one of the greatest monarchs of English history.

[SageGaspar]

I don't think Anora's particularly bad compared to anyone else in the game, but I don't see why you'd ever put her on the throne unless you were concerned about keeping Alistair for your own character.

Alistair has a reason to support the wardens, he is interested in the future of Ferelden, he displays some real emotion (if a bit too much at times), and you know he has more than just a convenient relationship with the truth and honoring agreements. He has both your character and Eamon to guide him.

Anora follows her own agenda. Maybe you're inconvenient so you get bumped off later on. Maybe once the immediate threat of the Blight is over she stops aiding the wardens at all. Maybe she slaughters all the City Elves en masse because they create problems and she can get away with it.

There's this nebulous concept that Anora is more capable because she is stone cold and used to playing politics, but I just don't see that as a persuasive argument. Would you vote for a blatant liar and schemer whose political ideologies are completely different from yours just because you think they're better at manipulating the system?

Modifié par SageGaspar, 03 décembre 2009 - 12:23 .

[Akka le Vil]

tmp7704 wrote...

I'd say it's rather the case of her thinking she is what's best for Ferelden (she says as much when you ask her why she should be the queen) and seeing to it by all means necessary. Which blurs that oh so convenient line between "selfish ****" and "dedicated ruler".

Considering her actions, it seems pretty clear that she may thinks that she's best for Ferelden, but that's NOT her motivations to be put on the trone. Her motivations are totally, utterly selfish.

She betrays you if you don't support her claim to the throne. There is no way in Hell that backing her father leads to a better outcome than putting Alistair on the throne. She does that simply because once you refuse to make her queen, she's more chance of becoming queen by supporting her father, well-being of Ferelden be damned.

She is not a humble yes-woman when dealing with the player, but a character with own very strong opinions and quite separate goals. Which apparently irks some alot, perhaps because they come with expectation the game world should be nothing but their sandbox malleable as they please.

That's quite petty of you, I expected better.

What people dislike in her is not the quality of her portrayal, but the character itself. She IS well done, fleshed out and with a mind on her own. She is a GREAT character. But she's a great character that has despicable actions. She's hated for the same reason Irenicus was hated (at least by people not falling into the "Draco in Leather Pants" dumb worship) : she's a well-written despicable character.

[Xandurpein]

I keep seeing people claim she betrays you. Just exactly where does she break a promise or trust with you? If anything she is very clear by what she wants from you. Ally with her and she helps you, oppose her and she opposes you.

May I also point out that we as players have the advantage of knowing Alistair (and ourselves) a lot. To her we are just a bunch of unknown adventurers who demand that she gracefully step down from a throne she have every right to believe is hers by right, just because we saved her ass from a jail.

I agree that she is far from a paragon of virtue. She is a realistic politician and with a personal agenda. That does not equate into "totally, utterly selfish" or anything else.

I could equally argue that Alistair is unfit to rule, on the basis that he is willing to assume a crown he doesn't want or himself believe he could handle well, solely out of spiteful revenge. Not to mention that he then quits the war against the darkspawn if you don't kill Loghain. That is in my book at least as selfish an action than anything Anora does. Anora does a good job of pointing it out herself.

If anything Alistair is as flawed a character as Anora. I have been going thorugh various alternative endings and nothing has left me with a stronger feeling of betrayal as when Alistair decides to betray not only the MC, but the Grey Wardens as well, when I refused to give in to his petty revenge. In truth both Alistair and Anora looks pretty ugly in a situation that brings out the worst in them, but maybe that can be said for a lot of us.

This whole discussion leads me to believe that our first impression of both Anora and Alistair in the conflict over who should rule is very much influenced by the choices we made in the very first play of the Landsmeet. I was didn't really want to let Alistair to rule, because he obviously didn't want to. I couldn't see any way for my character to order Loghains death after he had surrendered and Riordan (who has a lot higher rank in the Grey Wardens than Alistair) suggested he could join the Grey Wardens. I felt utterly betrayed by Alistair. I can only asssume that those who saw a situation that brought out the worst in Anora the first time feel differently. The point is that I think that for many of us the emotional impact the first time we play it through is so big, it colors our subsequent interpretation on alternate endings or a deeper understanding of the characters.

So big applause to Bioware for making characters impact so heavily on us.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 03 décembre 2009 - 01:42 .

[cglasgow]

Anora sends her handmaiden to beg you to rescue her from Arl Howe's mansion. The bargain there is that in return for you risking your lives to save hers, she will then back you. So yeah, there is a betrayal going on here.

[cglasgow]

And, a more general question.



At what point in the game does Anora ever do or say anything

that serves the best interests of anyone other than Anora?



Yeah, that's exactly what I want ruling Ferelden, Queen Anora the Self-Centered. You've got to be a bit of a nasty **** to survive in the queen business, yes, but its equally as bad for the populace being ruled if they get the entire ****.

[ExistsAlready]

It's not all bad. You can rescue her, say you'll support her in the Landsmeet and when it comes down to you to pick the next ruler of Fereldan, laugh in her face and give it to Allistair.

[Xandurpein]

The point I tried to make above is that it is equally valid to ask: At what point in the game does Anora ever do or say anything that does not serve Ferelden as she sees it. You and I have different opinions on that cglasgow, but I'm arguing that this is mostly based on different scenarios we have created in our minds from the facts we've been given.



It is perfectly reasonable to argue that Alistair is willing to sacrifice Ferelden, the Grey Wardens and everything else, KNOWING there is real Blight coming, all for the sake of his petty revenge. What makes him fit to rule anything?

[Anacronian Stryx]

In my first playthrough i was very wary of her because i was sure she was a secret blood mage who had bend the mind of her farther to set everything in motion so she could become the sole ruler - on the next playthrough i just found her self serving, no worse than everybody else.

[Akka le Vil]

Xandurpein wrote...

The point I tried to make above is that it is equally valid to ask: At what point in the game does Anora ever do or say anything that does not serve Ferelden as she sees it.

That was actually answered in the post RIGHT BEFORE your previous one :
She recognizes that Ferelden is going to crash into the ground with the civil war and the Darkspawn's invasion, that her father has gone mad and the like.
She knows you're the only hope.

Still, if you ever tell her that you'll support Alistair (yes she may pretend he's a poor choice as a king, but that's still much better than her father), she'll betray you and pretend you've captured her (while you came at her rescue AT HER DEMAND) and throw her lot again with her father.
Proves that she's not looking for the best of the nation, but only for her crown.

[Cyberpunk]

You know...Zevran is very useful once you become King alongside Anora...

*wink*

All in the name of self defense of course.

Modifié par kooaznboi1088, 03 décembre 2009 - 03:22 .

[Saurel]

Something about Anora's deer caught in headlight look bothers me when combined with her back stabbery.

[Chalenheri]

A side question of putting Anora on the throne: If she executes Alistair and you - being the only grey warden - die slaying the demon, there will be no grey wards any more, will there?



Another thing to mention:

When they show Loghain during the cut scenes making a move against the hero and anora is present, she does not seem to be very happy about it...



I think Anora and Bhelen would be a perfect match

[Saurel]

Chalenheri wrote...

A side question of putting Anora on the throne: If she executes Alistair and you - being the only grey warden - die slaying the demon, there will be no grey wards any more, will there?

In Fereldan...elsewhere however...

[tmp7704]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Considering her actions, it seems pretty clear that she may thinks that she's best for Ferelden, but that's NOT her motivations to be put on the trone. Her motivations are totally, utterly selfish.

I don't think we can really make that call, not knowing what her thoughts actually are. I accept this is how you view her but i'm not really convinced, not seeing anything what i could consider conclusive evidence in the actual game.

She betrays you if you don't support her claim to the throne. There is no way in Hell that backing her father leads to a better outcome than putting Alistair on the throne.

I think she doesn't see it this way, because she considers Alistair to be a weak man, nice but as unsuited to be the 'real' king as her own husband was. This is her own words when you speak with her about this subject. And really, without the meta-gaming and basing just on what you see in the game it is rather hard to disagree with that.

Keep in mind if Alistair's claim fails, the result is the banns falling unanimously behind Loghain -- Arl Eamon claims as much before you depart for the Landsmeet. So one way or the other the country does become united and ready to face the Blight. The only difference becomes the person it's united behind.

She puts her bet on a person she considers a better option not just for herself. This is why i don't think it can be concluded with any certainty she's only interested in herself. If anything, the writers managed to muddle the picture enough to make one able to doubt that.

That's quite petty of you, I expected better.

Well it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular if it helps. I honestly consider it to be working explanation given how much of complaints about her nature really boils down to "**** didn't do as i expected her to and she didn't support me". Which when you think of it is not very far from Anora's own stance -- a player resents her because they believe they are "what's the best for Ferelden" and she essentially disagrees with it, which somehow automagically makes her wrong and/or despicable.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 décembre 2009 - 03:44 .

[Yorenec]

Chalenheri wrote...

I think Anora and Bhelen would be a perfect match

Bhelen is actually a good ruler, and he's not really an a-hole, he just understands how ruthless dwarven politics are.

Anora is an a-hole, this is evident by the fact she won't hesitate to turn on you in a heartbeat, and that she almost risks war with the Orlesians by building a statue of the man who incessantly slandered them near their embassy.

She's also a mediocre ruler at best.

[tmp7704]

Yorenec wrote...

Bhelen is actually a good ruler, and he's not really an a-hole, he just understands how ruthless dwarven politics are.

Anora is an a-hole, this is evident by the fact she won't hesitate to turn on you in a heartbeat

Bhelen also won't hesitate to turn on anyone in a heartbeat. Don't kid yourself, if that trait makes Anora "an a-hole" then he is no different.

and that she almost risks war with the Orlesians by building a statue of the man who incessantly slandered them near their embassy.

She's also a mediocre ruler at best.

This goes completely against the game itself -- the ending states Anora proves herself to be a very good ruler, and there's nothing about the statue sparking any sort of controversy.

Really, if Anora is such a bad option why would we have to resort to making up stuff to show just how bad she is?

[mscotch]

I think the best ending I saw is if you have Anora and Alistair marry, especially if you toughened Alistair up on his personal quest and told him to make his own decisions. They end up being an effective team.

[Yorenec]

tmp7704 wrote...

Bhelen also won't hesitate to turn on anyone in a heartbeat. Don't kid yourself, if that trait makes Anora "an a-hole" then he is no different.

I said "you", by "you" I mean the person who is helping them/has helped them get the throne. Who has Bhelen turned on really?

Trian- deserved it begin with.
Dwarf noble PC,-who while not particularly deserving it, was the favorite child of the king, the same king who essentially turned his back on his race by being an idiot and adhering to stupid traditions that were driving them into the ground. Bhelen thought if the second child got the throne, they'd be just like the king. Whilst it probably wasn't the best course of action, I understand his reasons for doing it given the circumstances.
Harrowmont- see the king.

You could argue that Anora does it for the same reasons that Bhelen does if you want, but I wouldn't.

This goes completely against the game itself -- the ending states Anora proves herself to be a very good ruler, and there's nothing about the statue sparking any sort of controversy.

Really, if Anora is such a bad option why would we have to resort to making up stuff to show just how bad she is?

I'm not even really going to respond to this because it shows you're basing all of your opinions off your one and only playthrough.

Modifié par Yorenec, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:05 .

[tmp7704]

Yorenec wrote...

I said "you", by "you" I mean the person who is helping them/has helped them get the throne. Who has Bhelen turned on really?

Anora did not turn on my character when i supported her in getting the throne. She does turn on the player if she is not supported, but then so does Bhelen (try to declare Harrowmont the king in the Assembly and see how well that idea flies with Bhelen)

I'm not even really going to respond to this because it shows you're basing all of your opinions off your one and only playthrough.

No, please do respond. What playthrough results in the game claiming she's a mediocre ruler, and in the political tensions with Orlais?

edit: incidentally it'd appear you have only completed a single playthrough yourself so uhmm. well, should i apply the same reasoning to your own opinions?

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:15 .

[CluelessDude]

Maria Caliban wrote...

So what you're saying is..

Maria Caliban wrote...

Others came in with different expectations, and when they pick the ‘screw Anora’ option, they‘re surprised at what looks like a backstabbing.

That you came in with difference expections, and when you picked that option were surprised at Anora backstabbing you.

Anora (through her servant):  "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi!  I'm being held captive by Arl Howe, and I fear for my life!"

Player Character dutifully rescues her, killing countless Howe cronies and even the man himself.

Anora:  "Thanks.  BTW, don't reveal my identity, even though you're obviously covered with the blood of scores of Howe's men, and can therefore obviously protect me!"

Ser Cauthrien:  "Halt!  You stand accused of kidnapping Queen Anora, even though we're in Arl Howe's estate, and not in some hideout of yours, and therefore I'd have no plausible way of arriving at this extremely inconvenient moment without being tipped off by somebody ahead of time!"

Player Character:  "You're hot.  Um, I mean, you seem a reasonable sort.  You hesitated to obey Loghain in that Ostagar cutscene and all, so let me just level with you:  I'm rescuing Queen Anora from the evil clutches of Arl Howe!"

Anora:  "Ser Cauthien, help!  I'm being kidnapped!"

Player Character:  "Seriously?"

Between the PC and Anora, at that point in their relationship, it's only the PC who has demonstrated that he's trustworthy -- by, like, you know, risking life and limb and going all medieval in Arl Howe's estate.  At that point, regardless of her wishes, Anora owes the PC a gesture of good faith, not the other way around.

Given that the PC's party has already demonstrated nigh-absurd combat skill, and given that anyone with half a brain could see that Loghain's gone koo-koo for Coco Puffs, it isn't unreasonable to expect that Anora might indulge an attempt to reason with Ser Cauthrien.  Anora knows that Loghain wouldn't have her killed.  Does she really think she'd be any safer as an anonymous, disguised companion of the PC if the crap should hit the fan?

Realistically, that's not a reasonable expectation, even though the game gives her the option to disappear magically untouched by the melee.  It's far more likely she'd either die in the crossfire, or be captured along with the PC, than it is that she'd be spared due to her disguise.

On the flipside, the PC, who by this point has seen countless acts of betrayal committed by Loghain and his agents, has zero reason to believe that his life will be spared if he surrenders to Ser Cauthrien -- which, again, realistically, is the most likely (and even at that, implausible) way to let Anora escape unscathed.  What exactly has Anora done for the PC by that point to justify such a reckless act of faith on the PC's part?  

The whole thing just isn't very well plotted out, unless you read it from the point of view that Anora's a snake.

In short, there is no "screw Anora" by that point.  You've already gone above and beyond for someone you have no good reason to trust.  Quid pro quo, and all that jazz. 

Modifié par CluelessDude, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:22 .

[tmp7704]

CluelessDude wrote...

Between the PC and Anora, at that point in their relationship, it's only the PC who has demonstrated that he's trustworthy -- by, like, you know, risking life and limb and going all medieval in Arl Howe's estate.  At that point, regardless of her wishes, Anora owes the PC a gesture of good faith, not the other way around.

Even Arl Eamon points out the player has to go to Howe's estate because they basically have no other option. "If it's a trap we've already fell into it". You're not going to the estate to help Anora out of goodness of your heart. You're going there to remove what can potentially become queen's dead body and accusation the murderer was you.

Doing something out of necessity doesn't build trust.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:24 .

[CluelessDude]

tmp7704 wrote...

CluelessDude wrote...

Between the PC and Anora, at that point in their relationship, it's only the PC who has demonstrated that he's trustworthy -- by, like, you know, risking life and limb and going all medieval in Arl Howe's estate.  At that point, regardless of her wishes, Anora owes the PC a gesture of good faith, not the other way around.

Even Arl Eamon points out the player has to go to Howe's estate because they basically have no other option. "If it's a trap we've already fell into it".

Doing something out of necessity doesn't build trust.

Irrelevant.  From Anora's point of view, whatever your reasons, you've thrown your lot in with hers, even after having accepted the possibility that it's a trap.

You are therefore trustworthy, or at least she has far more reason to trust you (at least til you leave the freaking estate), than you have to trust her.

Motive doesn't enter the equation.  Actions speak louder than words.  Being the pragmatic power-broker type (so-called by her defenders), Anora would be the first to tell you that the only important thing is who's committed to aliy with whom.  Not whether or not they had warm fuzzy feelings about doing it.

Modifié par CluelessDude, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:27 .

[Yorenec]

tmp7704 wrote...

Anora did not turn on my character when i supported her in getting the throne. She does turn on the player if she is not supported, but then so does Bhelen (try to declare Harrowmont the king in the Assembly and see how well that idea flies with Bhelen)

Fair enough, I suppose I should have specified, nor was my initial argument that specific either. You're correct in saying she does not turn on you if you support her. My particular scenario is when you ask her to support Alistair at the landsmeet, she says yes, then turns on you anyway, and then when you make Alistair king, she again goes back on her word about supporting him, and throws a tantrum. As for Bhelen, well if you say you're going to support him initially/do his quests and then make Harrowmont king, then essentially you're turning on him first, so all bets are off.
If you say that you're going to support Harrowmont from the get-go, that's not really him turning on you consider you didn't have his support to begin with.

No, please do respond. What playthrough results in the game claiming she's a mediocre ruler, and in the political tensions with Orlais?

Everyone of them actually. They don't claim, but the entire game paints a pretty good picture of her being a horrible wartime ruler, not to mention all the stuff in the alienage going on during her five years with Cailan. Sure she's great at managing the economy, but the badness at being a wartime ruler offsets that, therefore she's an overall mediocre ruler.

As for the tensions with Orlais, that one I can't really answer since it seems to be random. I've done two different playthroughs where I did basically the same thing, in one of them the statue is fine, but nobody bothers with it except her. When now that I think of it, with that ending she wastes money building something that nobody actually cares for. Another sign of a mediocre ruler. In the other playthrough, it says she pisses off the Orlesians because it was built close to their embassy. 

That's probably something you can chalk up to the ending texts being buggy and contradicting things you do in game, but that she actually does that shows she's letting her emotions get the best of her, another sign of a mediocre ruler.

[tmp7704]

CluelessDude wrote...

Irrelevant.  From Anora's point of view, whatever your reasons, you've thrown your lot in with hers, even after having accepted the possibility that it's a trap.

Or rather inconvenient?  From Anora's point of view you're doing something to protect your own skin, nothing more. Whether you're actually going to do something for her only becomes established later, in Eamon's estate. That is, if you don't blow it by revealing her presence sooner.

Motive doesn't enter the equation.  Actions speak louder than words.  Being the pragmatic power-broker type (so-called by her defenders), Anora would be the first to tell you that the only important thing is who's committed to aliy with whom.

Precisely. Revealing her presence the moment your so-well-skilled crew runs into something bigger than a couple thugs... well, that's not sort of action that shows much commitment, is it?