385 réponses à ce sujet

[CluelessDude]

tmp7704 wrote...

CluelessDude wrote...

Irrelevant.  From Anora's point of view, whatever your reasons, you've thrown your lot in with hers, even after having accepted the possibility that it's a trap.

Or rather inconvenient?  From Anora's point of view you're doing something to protect your own skin, nothing more. Whether you're actually going to do something for her only becomes established later, in Eamon's estate. That is, if you don't blow it by revealing her presence sooner.

Motive doesn't enter the equation.  Actions speak louder than words.  Being the pragmatic power-broker type (so-called by her defenders), Anora would be the first to tell you that the only important thing is who's committed to aliy with whom.

Precisely. Revealing her presence the moment your so-well-skilled crew runs into something bigger than a couple thugs... well, that's not sort of action that shows much commitment, is it?

The PC is already in Howe's estate.  The PC has made no move directly to harm Anora, or even threaten her in any way.  Thus, you've already accomplished the enormous task she originally asked of you in obvious good faith, regardless of your motivations, which remain at the very least unclear to her..

I note that you've made no attempt to address just how absurd her plan is.  "Yeah, when my father's men show up, I'll be safer if I remain an anonymous, presumed friend of my father's sworn enemy, rather than showing myself as his daughter."

And

"Who cares who has to die, including the dude who just saved me, for my aforementioned, stupid plan to go forward!"

So it's reasonable for her to get all whiny because the PC decided to out her -- which anyone with half a brain would realize is the safest option for all concerned -- instead of surrendering himself to likely death?  After the PC already went to that enormous effort to save her?

It doesn't make sense.  At all.  Unless Anora's a snake.

Modifié par CluelessDude, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:41 .

[tmp7704]

Yorenec wrote...

Everyone of them actually. They don't claim, but the entire game paints a pretty good picture of her being a horrible wartime ruler, not to mention all the stuff in the alienage going on during her five years with Cailan.

Well, the thing is if the game claims the opposite (rather than say, if it didn't claim anything at all) then really i don't think i can selectively question it just because it doesn't match my personal impression. Same reason i don't really question say, the claim about Bhelen turning out to be good for dwarves in the end.

In the other playthrough, it says she pisses off the Orlesians because it was built close to their embassy.

Ahh this is very interesting. I got the 'statue was mostly ignored' resolution even though it also was built next to the embassy. Now i have to wonder if it's random or somehow influenced by the events in game. In any case yes, given such possible outcome it does show as not the wisest move.

[Cyberpunk]

Ahh this is very interesting. I got the 'statue was mostly ignored'
resolution even though it also was built next to the embassy. Now i
have to wonder if it's random or somehow influenced by the events in
game. In any case yes, given such possible outcome it does show as not
the wisest move.

Statue was mostly ignored by Feraldens btw.

[tmp7704]

CluelessDude wrote...

The PC is already in Howe's estate.  The PC has made no move directly to harm Anora, or even threaten her in any way.  Thus, you've already accomplished the enormous task she originally asked of you in obvious good faith, regardless of your motivations, which remain at the very least unclear to her..

Ehh but no. Motivations *are* important. Consider the following analogy:

you're riding in a car with another person. This person out of sudden exclaims "omg there is a bomb under my seat! please disarm it!" (or we both die. If you fail or choose not to act at all we both die, too)

you do as told and disarm the bomb. At this point and basing on this action alone the person you're with cannot really tell if you did it because you didn't want to see them dead, or simply just to save yourself and without regard for what happens to them.

Now if your next move is to shove them out of the car while it's going full speed ahead, that can resolve such doubt, wouldn't you say? And revealing Anora's presence to person who for all you know might be planning to kill her is quite like such move...

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:54 .

[Xandurpein]

The statue is not random. It becomes a landmark of importance if Loghain sacrifices himself to kill the Archdemon. Then he is redeemed in the eyes of the people and Anora can make him a public hero.

[Yorenec]

Xandurpein wrote...

The statue is not random. It becomes a landmark of importance if Loghain sacrifices himself to kill the Archdemon. Then he is redeemed in the eyes of the people and Anora can make him a public hero.

She builds it regardless is what we're talking about.

Yes it becomes relevant if he sacrifices himself, but if he gets executed, she still builds it, and it's worthless, and she's still wasting money because of her personal feelings.

That's what we're talking about.

[Xandurpein]

Are you seriously going to argue that Anora is evil because she erects a statue in rememberance of her father, because the public doesn't agree with it? If so I belive you have very narrow standards.

Another point about Anora is that dynastic struggles like those between Alistair and herself usually ended up with the loosers dead or inprisoned for life. Just read up on english medieval history. It is not farfetched to imagine that Anora believes that she is fighting for her life. I haven't explore all options, but it seems that a lot of ends where Alistair becomes King, she ends up locked away in a dungeon. This was standrad practice at the time to avoid dynastic struggles, not some punishment for being particularily evil.

Sure she is not the paragon of goodness who allows herself be executed or locked up forever in a dungeon, for the good of Ferelden or something. Would you?

Modifié par Xandurpein, 03 décembre 2009 - 05:43 .

[TuringPoint]

I think she sides with Loghain against you because she can't fathom, perhaps not unselfishly, how Alistair would be a better ruler than her.



I think she wants, in the best of all possible worlds, for Loghain to stop acting behind her back, and we are shown that he acts behind her back and is not particularly in alignment with her overall political agenda. Loghain might not be aware of this, but it is so. Still, she sees herself as the best caretaker for the country, that much would be lost if she let that go. This is probably something Loghain encouraged her to think for quite a while.



She wants you to help her get rid of Loghain, but she's not heartless enough to want him executed outright - what would you honestly think of her if she set in plan a series of events to kill her father for taking any authority of the country whatsoever?



Compare that to putting in motion a plan to getting him and his misguided actions away from the seat of power, but hopefully not dead, which would require the Warden's support? And conditionally, without the Warden's support, what should she do, being the only qualified ruler left? Make sure she is still ruling in some capacity, at least. So she adopts Loghains position, takes his side, and if you decide not to take her side proactively and simply want to benefit with a Warden on the throne? What would she expect except to be thrown into the tower at the castle, with a Warden on the throne? Alistair of all people, someone who doesn't know the first thing about ruling, in the middle of a war?



I hope you consider that she does not know the consequence of her every action, cannot read the future, and has no idea what a Grey Warden actually does. In the end the Grey Wardens get what they need, to save Ferelden, and what else do you really want? Isn't that what's important?

[TuringPoint]

In summation, you are all right not to trust her, but to find only bad intentions in her actions is total folly.

[Xandurpein]

Alocormin wrote...

In summation, you are all right not to trust her, but to find only bad intentions in her actions is total folly.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Serianalae]

Power corrupts! Absolute power corrupts absolutely.



Anora has been on the throne and ruled the country AND LIKED IT! That's why she is bad for the country, because she is selfish. Only someone who has to rule because he must will always remember the burden of responsibilities put on him. Someone who just likes the power / prestige involved will ignore the responsibility and will do only what is good for himself and not for his people. Think about some politicians and you can see the hunger for power and the corrupted spirit it caused.



This game is awesome for the moral choices given to us. Sadly too few seem to think about what it implies for their own personality. If you are ok with Anora on the throne you arent a nice person to the core, but rather have a somewhat uncaring attitude like she has. The same with Morrigan's request on the last evening. You can choose to put Anora on the throne and not agree with her in your heart ... just to have a different ending though.

[Yorenec]

Xandurpein wrote...

Are you seriously going to argue that Anora is evil because she erects a statue in rememberance of her father, because the public doesn't agree with it? If so I belive you have very narrow standards.

Another point about Anora is that dynastic struggles like those between Alistair and herself usually ended up with the loosers dead or inprisoned for life. Just read up on english medieval history. It is not farfetched to imagine that Anora believes that she is fighting for her life. I haven't explore all options, but it seems that a lot of ends where Alistair becomes King, she ends up locked away in a dungeon. This was standrad practice at the time to avoid dynastic struggles, not some punishment for being particularily evil.

Sure she is not the paragon of goodness who allows herself be executed or locked up forever in a dungeon, for the good of Ferelden or something. Would you?

I never said anything about evil, nor did I once say I think she's an overall bad person. Good job shoving words into my mouth though.

I said she's an idiot who let her personal feelings get in the way, wasting taxpayer money on something the public doesn't care about and also potentially risking war with the Orlesians, when her entire job is to serve the public.

Eamon also specifically says "Anora, will you swear fealty to our new king?" . If she had done that, or renounced her claim publicly, I severely doubt she would have been executed or locked in prison knowing Alistair. He might have even let her stay on as an advisor. Instead, she let her personal feelings get in the way and threw a tantrum, earning her a trip to the tower.

[TuringPoint]

Well, I agree that a ruler needs to recognize that ruling is service.  

If Anora were uncaring and selfish, her epilogue after being coronated would not be so largely positive. As much as I love the elves, there are many different issues that Anora seems to actually address where Alistair doesn't address anything apparently, and it's uncaring to not be able to recognize the good in both paths.  I would tend to go with Alistair, though.

I think Anora isn't as uncaring as you would like to suggest, or that Morrigan is actually so evil as paranoia would suggest. I don't even see Morrigan as evil. I can see that choosing to go with her plan would be misguided, and possibly uncaring if you're convinced the Old God's are really bad by nature.

So building a statue to Loghain is risking war, is that what you're saying? Weird. Interesting idea though.

Modifié par Alocormin, 03 décembre 2009 - 06:53 .

[Yorenec]

   

If Anora were uncaring and selfish, her epilogue after being coronated would not be so largely positive. As much as I love the elves, there are many different issues that Anora seems to actually address where Alistair doesn't address anything apparently, and it's uncaring to not be able to recognize the good in both paths.  I would tend to go with Alistair, though.

    
    Most of Alistair's endings involve him appointing an elf to his court, and things overall improving in the alienage. A couple of Anora's involve her ordering a massacre in order to prevent rioiting or continue to ignore them, making things get worse.

  I think Anora isn't as uncaring as you would like to suggest, or that Morrigan is actually so evil as paranoia would suggest. I don't even see Morrigan as evil. I can see that choosing to go with her plan would be misguided, and possibly uncaring if you're convinced the Old God's are really bad by nature.

Uncaring, not really. Unfit for ruling by herself,  big yes. Personally, I don't think Morrigan is even remotely evil either. Uldred is the only character in the game that could be classified as truly evil. Branka is just really crazy, Flemeth is so-so but I would lean more towards power-hungry.

Alocormin wrote...

So building a statue to Loghain is risking war, is that what you're saying? Weird. Interesting idea though.

If I was the Orlesians, and a statue of somebody who spent more time slandering us instead of repelling a Blight was built near our embassy, I'd probably take offense to it also.

Modifié par Yorenec, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:03 .

[TuringPoint]

I perceive that similar things could be done in real life without the threat of immediate war. Still, I do find it a bit selfish. I just can't see Anora as 100% the worse for Ferelden, but I suppose if you're going to make a choice you might as well go all out.

Also, I will say that if this were not a video game, I would do more research on the candidates before deciding and I wouldn't be fooling around with things being fine either way.

I always go with Alistair as an elf, though.  I wonder if you could become royalty as an elf with Anora?  Also, what you say indicates that there is an ending where she doesn't cull the alienage?  I really despise that action, but yeah.

Modifié par Alocormin, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:05 .

[Riona45]

Serianalae wrote...

This game is awesome for the moral choices given to us. Sadly too few seem to think about what it implies for their own personality. If you are ok with Anora on the throne you arent a nice person to the core, but rather have a somewhat uncaring attitude like she has.

Wow, are you joking?  That was a pretty dumb thing to say.

Modifié par Riona45, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:06 .

[TuringPoint]

I was thinking she shouldn't rule by herself. Really, I find it hard to fathom my Cousland standing for her treatment of the Alienage, but there you go. That was an incompetent choice on her part.

I personally see this as: Justice with Alistair, more progress with Anora. I've been pushing that a lot, haha.

If there's any way to exert influence on Anora, I would certainly do it.  Considering her respect of you I think she would take it.  My Cousland is a very politically adept fellow himself, so I think he could stand up to her and be a match for her.  It depends on the writers to some extent, I suppose.  I realize she might in fact be too stubborn to let anyone have a say in anything, which is not a trait I greatly admire, but I can't imagine her being popular if she doesn't at least listen to her subjects.

Modifié par Alocormin, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:14 .

[Yorenec]

I would also say that if I were to make a tier list for optimal ruling, it would go like this. This is based off experience with the endings, and to a lesser extant, my own opinion.

From best to worst.
1: Hardened Alistair + female human noble ( if romancing him and it's a marriage of love)
2: Anora + hardened Alistair
3:TIE- Anora + male human noble and hardened Alistair+female human noble(political marriages, in this case they're fighting for power and it doesn't help one bit)
4: Hardened Alistair by himself
5: Unhardened Alistair + female human noble
6: Unhardened Alistair+ Anora
7:Anora by herself
8:Unhardened Alistair by himself

Modifié par Yorenec, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:36 .

[velmyn]

Alocormin wrote...

I perceive that similar things could
be done in real life without the threat of immediate war. Still, I do
find it a bit selfish. I just can't see Anora as 100% the worse for
Ferelden, but I suppose if you're going to make a choice you might as
well go all out.

Also, I will say that if this were not a video
game, I would do more research on the candidates before deciding and I
wouldn't be fooling around with things being fine either way.

I doubt anybody is saying that she's the absolute worst...It's the fact that people disagree on whether Anora is preferrable, acceptable, or inacceptable as a ruler. Big differences there.

That, and whether we dislike Anora as a character. She's well-written...of that I doubt anybody posting in the thread disagrees. She evokes strong emotional responses...and sometimes it blurs the line between whether we like or dislike this character and whether that affects her quality as a ruler...etc...whatever.

Alocormin wrote...
I was thinking she shouldn't rule by herself. Really, I find it hard to fathom my Cousland standing for her treatment of the Alienage, but there you go. That was an incompetent choice on her part.

I personally see this as: Justice with Alistair, more progress with Anora. I've been pushing that a lot, haha.

It entirely depends on what you see as 'progress'...In the case of Harrowmont and Bhelen it was less obvious...so it was a harder decision for me.

However in the case of Ferelden, Alistair improves the situation in the alienage, and even appoints the elder as a member of his council.

Anora on the other hand, whether by incompetence or apathy(depending on your opinion of Anora's capabilities) will potentially cause the situation at the alienage to degenerate enough to incite a riot,  which she has to suppress with force.

Alocormin wrote...
If there's any way to exert influence on Anora, I would certainly do it.  Considering her respect of you I think she would take it.  My Cousland is a very politically adept fellow himself, so I think he could stand up to her and be a match for her.

I believe if you two end up marrying, the epilogue describes 'what would have been a golden age' if the two of you didn't spend so much time fighting for control.

Alocormin wrote...
It depends on the writers to some extent, I suppose.  I realize she might in fact be too stubborn to let anyone have a say in anything, which is not a trait I greatly admire, but I can't imagine her being popular if she doesn't at least listen to her subjects.

Popularity in Dragon Age is such a sticky issue. (like everything else)

Bhelen wasn't particularly popular...but he manages to turn Orzammar into a more progressive, open society specifically by forcing his views. In a way it's surprising that Alistair draws parallels with him really...given that the situation of the Elves mirror that of the casteless, and appointing an Elven Elder to the council would most likely go against the wishes of not only the Banns but the citizens as well.

Modifié par velmyn, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:57 .

[Beren082]

Hey, I played through twice both letting Anora rule and then Alistair. When I let Anora take the throne, while she was relatively component, her actions caused alot of strife and unrest throughout the kingdom even causing major problems with the elves in and out of the alienage. while when I made Alistair take the throne, he gave the elves a nation of their own and began to talk peacefully with them, he rebuilt the grey wardens to nearly their former glory, he was loved nearly everyone under his rule, and for the most part, peace reigned. I'd say that says it all.

[Xandurpein]

Serianalae wrote...

This game is awesome for the moral choices given to us. Sadly too few seem to think about what it implies for their own personality. If you are ok with Anora on the throne you arent a nice person to the core, but rather have a somewhat uncaring attitude like she has. The same with Morrigan's request on the last evening. You can choose to put Anora on the throne and not agree with her in your heart ... just to have a different ending though.

I suppose it was too much to hope that this threead would stay above such, but since you choose to make this personal, let me respond on a more personal note.

I have unfortunatly no way of voting for someone who shares my views on how Ferelden would best be governed. Neither Alistair or Anora fit that bill. I still think people who are upset with Anora completly disregards Alistairs hissy fit if the player chooses not to kill Loghain... and what it implies about his true character. In fact I think that whoever tried to rule Ferelden the way I would really like to do it, would end up dead within a year. Trying to introduce modern democracy in a Medieval kingdom like Ferelden would likely end up very sadly.

To be honest I am inclined to excuse both Alistair and Anora for their worst tantrums. He or she ,depending upon your choice, would at the moment under temendous emotional stress. Maybe he or she just lost it. I for one think Alistairs story when he ends up as a drunk indicates that he probably consumes himself by selfhatred for what he did. I just can't accept the idea that Alistairs tantrum in OK, but Anora's isn't.

I also loved Alistair as a buddy. I also have a few really nice caring friends who I think are wonderful people, and I doubt would doubt would throw tantrums like he did, but I do not think they would be very good candidates to rule a medieval kingdom.

If I think a good ruler needs to want to be a leader, it is because I truly believe people who do not want to be leaders make very bad leaders. Those they lead aren't helped by good intentions. A King who do not want to be King, may be incorruptible, but he will soon do a lousy job, simply because he will, conciously or uncounciously, try to shirk form his duty. I think that wise paragons who rules solely out of duty, with no interest of their own are just constructs of theoretical philosophy, and I do NOT think that Alistair would fit the description.

I had a boss in my earlier career. He was a wonderful person, caring and a bit timid. He didn't really want to be a leader, he just wanted everyone to be happy. As much as I loved the man it was truly a disaster. He constantly tried to avoid difficult decisions and generally made a mess of everything. He wasn't a happy man either. He wanted to be nice and the result was misery.

Wanting to be a leader is not the same as wanting to be a tyrant. Certainly Anora is no paragon of virtue, I never claimed so. I merely thought that alone Anora, even with her obvious faults, would make a better ruler than Alistair. To be honest I didn't even have the heart to make him ruler as he so obviously didn't want to.

Now if some of you are, conciously or unconciously,  comparing a single Anora to an Alistair married to your MC, well maybe you as Queen could have made up for his deficiences, and I can understand you ending up on the other side of the fence, but that was not an option for me.

You are of course free to think that I am a heartless selfish person if you think so. It's really nothing I can do about.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:46 .

[TuringPoint]

Some people are saying she's absolute evil and there's no excuse for putting her on the throne, much less letting her live. That is the thing I feel most passionately about arguing against, and I was trying to clarify that I don't think she's perfect just because I'm opposing the other extreme.

People continue to respond to my posts as if I'm with the Anora camp, lol, and I'm not. Not really, although I do like her, and I'm trying to prove why liking her can be justified.  Let me try to clarify a little.

The only example people bring up with her "causing strife" is within the alienage.   However, she renewed foreign trade, passed laws to encourage better output from crops, started plans for a university, and rebuilt the capital and army. I don't remember anything so specific about Alistair, just that he was just and well-liked. The Alienage thing as well - does he really give an Elf a place in court even if the PC isn't one? I guess his mother was one, so that makes sense. And the Goldanna thing too, of course.

Not to suggest I think Alistair is "no better," but I seriously wonder if he would ever do such a thing for elves if he knew nothing about them, as Anora certainly doesn't. Mind you that it is common to deal with Alienage revolts in a similar way, and the epilogue with Alistair says that not much really changes for the elves, except for having a place in court and a little more hope of future progress.  Possible progress.  If you put Anora's industry to Alistair's heart it would be the best of both worlds. I don't think it's acceptable to squish people into further desperation when they're desperate, much less elves.  I have a fondness of the Alienage because of that being where my first character was from.

I know what the epilogue said about a golden age, blah blah blah, I couldn't care less. I was just expressing what my character would do. The possibility of a golden age suggests she's doing something right, and what I'm trying to get at, all I'm trying to get at, is that she is doing something right, and I have to say I respect that, and my Cousland would seek to complement that, not fight that.  Maybe that's not possible, but all in good time.

Other people might not care, or might just be focused on who everyone should choose, fine.

Bhelen was pretty popular, actually. He was more popular, which is why he was more effective after being crowned than Harrowmont is.

Modifié par Alocormin, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:58 .

[Riona45]

Xandurpein wrote...
Now if some of you are, conciously or unconciously,  comparing a single Anora to an Alistair married to your MC, well maybe you as Queen could have made up for his deficiences, and I can understand you ending up on the other side of the fence, but that was not an option for me.

It won't be an option for me either, because I'm playing a mage and would be forced to break up with the guy (who, by the way, remains "unhardened") if I made him king.  On top of that, he doesn't seem to want to be king in the first place, so who am I to force that on him?

Modifié par Riona45, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:57 .

[Yorenec]

Thing is, when you compare unhardened Alistair and hardened Alistair, it's essentially two different people. One doesn't want to be king at all, the other does. One whines all the time, the other whines maybe once.

As evident by my list, I would choose Anora over unhardened Alistair, every time.

However, she has nothing on hardened Alistair, it's not even a contest.

Both of them have their stupid tantrums at the landsmeet yes, anybody who tries to argue that one tantrum is stupid and the other isn't, is well frankly, an idiot.

My reason is that, all things considered, Alistair's tantrum is more justified.

His tantrum is because he feels he was betrayed and that something which is generally considered a great honor is tainted, and to an extant, he's right.

Anora's is simply because she didn't get her way, and similar to her father not being able to accept that things were different with the Orlesians, she was unable to accept that Alistair had changed.

Modifié par Yorenec, 03 décembre 2009 - 09:01 .

[TuringPoint]

Oh! One more thing.

As much as it might be a good sign for someone to abhor ruling, to a degree - that could be for one of a couple reasons, probably more than I can think of here. But the two reasons I have in mind are:
1. He is kind-hearted and doesn't want anything bad to happen because of his incompetence.
2. He really has no idea of what to do as a ruler and wouldn't be able to do much more than the bare minimum of what was required of him, if that. It's easy to get away with not being very good at what you do if people like you, and reading in between the lines I could see that Alistair as King's epilogue could be read that way.

Also, Anora's tantrum isn't just because she didn't get her way.  I disagree with that.  Neither is Alistair's, although I think that Anora's final tantrum can do relatively little harm while Alistair's tantrum results in one less Grey Warden going into the final battle, which is quite a price to be willing to pay.

Yet, Alistair's choice to have Loghain executed or for himself to leave the Wardens turns out fine.  I also find it enormously satisfying when he stands up and decides to become King because of it, even though it seems highly irrational and suspect, lol.

Modifié par Alocormin, 03 décembre 2009 - 09:06 .