385 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Alocormin wrote...

I always go with Alistair as an elf, though.  I wonder if you could become royalty as an elf with Anora? 

I don't think it's possible for the same reason Alistair won't take an elf as official wife if he's made the king.

I picked Anora over Alistair with my elf because she came across as competent, reasonable enough and willing to keep rocking the boat to minimum (preferable with the Blight sweeping across the country) ...  while i didn't have heart to push Alistair into position he claimed over and over he never wanted and frankly with his personality didn't seem best suited for.

That there is still racial tensions with the elves in her ending i find actually preferable over the alternative that comes with Alistair's ruling -- the latter is too much like rainbows and kittens ending and feels very unrealistic in comparison. Racial tensions and prejudice don't disappear just like that, token elf in the Landsmeet or not. Plus, Anora has less reasons than Alistair to act nice towards all elves just because one of them turned out ok, so her behaving more like a human ruler probably would made sense all things considered.

[TuringPoint]

Well, Alistair's ending doesn't say prejudice disappears. It says it continues pretty healthily in fact, if I recall. But there's no crush in the Alienage resulting from his rule; I think anyone other than Alistair, including Cailan on the throne, would've crushed the alienage, and it's a little unfair to isolate Anora as being the one who would do that, as if it indicates her creating strife that wasn't already going to be there.

But if I were King, I would do what Alistair did, even if I weren't descended from an elf.

My elf goes with Alistair because she's a little less politically savvy and believes in her friends, or something along those lines.

Modifié par Alocormin, 03 décembre 2009 - 09:12 .

[Xandurpein]

Yorenec wrote...

...Alistair's tantrum is more justified.

His tantrum is because he feels he was betrayed and that something which is generally considered a great honor is tainted, and to an extant, he's right.

So you argue that he thinks that the honor of the Grey Wardens is more important than defeating the Blight? If Alistair thinks so he is not very fit to rule in my book. Personally I think he simply lost it becuase he blames Loghain for Duncan's death. I played a Cousland male and I wanted to kill him badly for being rsponisble for my parents death, but I choose to remain above that, in the interest of Ferelden.

[velmyn]

Of course, if there's a riot you have to suppress it somehow. The thing is, wouldn't a competent and decent ruler actually try to do something about the alienage in favor of stability? (regardless of whether he likes the elves or not) Unless he/she simply wanted an excuse to exterminate the elves...(which I don't believe to be the case)

The ability to keep people happy, or at least in check is the mark of a good politician...and even if that elven elder was a token presence just to appease the elves(which also I don't really believe to be the case) it worked, and no huge civil unrest came as a result of it.

Cailan's naive and not an effective ruler...that much is true. Though I can hardly agree that if he actually knew about what was going on in the alienage he would have allowed it to get so bad that they would riot. It's all pure speculation...of course...since we don't see enough of him. (the only thing I recall is him saying that his attendants won't let him go to the alienage.)

Modifié par velmyn, 03 décembre 2009 - 10:31 .

[BlueEyes_Austin]

Beren082 wrote...

Hey, I played through twice both letting Anora rule and then Alistair. When I let Anora take the throne, while she was relatively component, her actions caused alot of strife and unrest throughout the kingdom even causing major problems with the elves in and out of the alienage. while when I made Alistair take the throne, he gave the elves a nation of their own and began to talk peacefully with them, he rebuilt the grey wardens to nearly their former glory, he was loved nearly everyone under his rule, and for the most part, peace reigned. I'd say that says it all.

If you take ther Grey Warden boon from Anora they also get built up and have a seat of power as well.

[Beren082]

yeah, but you have to convince her to do that. left to her own, she would disregard the order entirely. Alistair takes an active roll in restoring it to it's former glory. plus you have all the other results, which are pretty convincing to me that Alistair (hardened or not) makes a better ruler.

[phordicus]

anora's a power-hungry **** who only wants what's best for her.

[Reader81]

Xandurpein wrote...

I keep seeing people claim she betrays you. Just exactly where does she break a promise or trust with you? If anything she is very clear by what she wants from you. Ally with her and she helps you, oppose her and she opposes you.

May I also point out that we as players have the advantage of knowing Alistair (and ourselves) a lot. To her we are just a bunch of unknown adventurers who demand that she gracefully step down from a throne she have every right to believe is hers by right, just because we saved her ass from a jail.

I agree that she is far from a paragon of virtue. She is a realistic politician and with a personal agenda. That does not equate into "totally, utterly selfish" or anything else.

I could equally argue that Alistair is unfit to rule, on the basis that he is willing to assume a crown he doesn't want or himself believe he could handle well, solely out of spiteful revenge. Not to mention that he then quits the war against the darkspawn if you don't kill Loghain. That is in my book at least as selfish an action than anything Anora does. Anora does a good job of pointing it out herself.

If anything Alistair is as flawed a character as Anora. I have been going thorugh various alternative endings and nothing has left me with a stronger feeling of betrayal as when Alistair decides to betray not only the MC, but the Grey Wardens as well, when I refused to give in to his petty revenge. In truth both Alistair and Anora looks pretty ugly in a situation that brings out the worst in them, but maybe that can be said for a lot of us.

This whole discussion leads me to believe that our first impression of both Anora and Alistair in the conflict over who should rule is very much influenced by the choices we made in the very first play of the Landsmeet. I was didn't really want to let Alistair to rule, because he obviously didn't want to. I couldn't see any way for my character to order Loghains death after he had surrendered and Riordan (who has a lot higher rank in the Grey Wardens than Alistair) suggested he could join the Grey Wardens. I felt utterly betrayed by Alistair. I can only asssume that those who saw a situation that brought out the worst in Anora the first time feel differently. The point is that I think that for many of us the emotional impact the first time we play it through is so big, it colors our subsequent interpretation on alternate endings or a deeper understanding of the characters.

So big applause to Bioware for making characters impact so heavily on us.

Or Alistair feel betrayed by you by failing bring a justice or  righteous, make you transgressors yourself and other by spare Loghains' Live if he keep doing a evil and harm to other people? Hmmm! Good ruler is care for people and people let's them be ruler longer., Bad ruler is do not care for other but themself has a very short live and will force to removed in many way. Of coures Bad ruler lie and try get foolish people think they are good rulers. How do we know Alistair want  revenge or Justice in order not to hurt or messy other people's life in future? I didn't play full game to find out though, don't forget, cause harm other or harm other is evil. Do Loghains cause harm other or harm other? Hmmm.

[cglasgow]

Another point regarding Alistair is that all the while he was being raised, it was "made very plain to him" (his words) that he was not to even dream of trying to lead any rebellions or make any grab for power.



Remember that inconvenient royal bastards have, historically, sometimes ended up dead. Alistair has spent his entire life being groomed and shaped to be afraid of power. He's pretty much been told that if he tries a power grab, he'll be executed.



And now, all of a sudden, he's expected to put himself forward as a claimant for the throne. Of course, this is because his half-brother is now dead, and he's the only blood heir left on the planet. Circumstances have altered cases. But its going to take him a little while to catch up emotionally, and to have it sink in that he's actually allowed to think about being king now, instead of having that be a death penalty offense.

[ybrik68]

I played a human noble(rogue), and took Anora's hand in marriage and now I get to be her king, forget Allister and take it for yourself.

[TuringPoint]

Beren082 wrote...

yeah, but you have to convince her to do that. left to her own, she would disregard the order entirely. Alistair takes an active roll in restoring it to it's former glory. plus you have all the other results, which are pretty convincing to me that Alistair (hardened or not) makes a better ruler.

What other results, besides the alienage bit?

You know, a good politician isn't going to be a Ghandi.  That doesn't mean a Ghandi couldn't be a politician, but the nature of a politician is the power struggle and the definition of one's enemies, which is not Ghandi-like.  I doubt anyone railing against Anora would have the political interest to be a political Ghandi.  It's possible to seek political change without being defined by your enemies or making enemies, but there will be people deciding that you're their enemy if you do anything they disagree with.

Alistair reminds me of George Washington, at best.  I think George Washington was just fine, but if George Washington had been president for as long as a King rules, I honestly wonder how well off we'd be.

I just find it exceedingly naive to believe the nobility of Anora's court would expect anything more than what she did to the Alienage.  It is common place, as we are shown and told repeatedly in the game, to be exactly that brutal to the elves and even more.  Aside from it just not showing a lot of empathy on her part to do that to the elves, it is naive to believe those with a basically barbarian, superstitious, medieval, pre-enlightenment world in every way that Ferelden is would just step up for the elves suddenly and say, "never mind, we were wrong," when the game shows us and tells us that's not what happens.  If they game gave us something else to suggest the elves had some hope of improvement in their lifestyle, I would accept it and recognize that the gameworld cultures are ready for that enlightenment.

Modifié par Alocormin, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:51 .

[Xandurpein]

Reader81 wrote...
Or Alistair feel betrayed by you by failing bring a justice or  righteous, make you transgressors yourself and other by spare Loghains' Live if he keep doing a evil and harm to other people? Hmmm! Good ruler is care for people and people let's them be ruler longer., Bad ruler is do not care for other but themself has a very short live and will force to removed in many way. Of coures Bad ruler lie and try get foolish people think they are good rulers. How do we know Alistair want  revenge or Justice in order not to hurt or messy other people's life in future? I didn't play full game to find out though, don't forget, cause harm other or harm other is evil. Do Loghains cause harm other or harm other? Hmmm.

If you let Loghain live he actually does change and redeem himself. But even if Alistair does not know this and can be forgiven for believing Loghain would do more evil in the future, it's still no excuse. The Grey Wardens duty is to stop the Blight. The Blight is basically the end of every living being in Ferelden. I would tend to agree with those who think it's a character flaw in Anora that she can value her quest for the crown higher than fighting the Blight under some circumstances, but she doesn't know for real it is a Blight. Alistair knows it. By the time I got my character to Landsmeet I would have been prepared to see Howe on the throne if truly thought it would be the only thing that stopped the Blight. (I would still had killed him when the Blight was over!)

It is Alistair who betrays the Grey Wardens and everything they stand for. I have no proof of why he does it. The reason why I want to believe that Alistair loved Duncan so much as the father he never had that his mind snapped, is that any other possible explanation just makes him such a terrible person in my book.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 04 décembre 2009 - 07:27 .

[Original182]

This thread still going on? The epilogue should clearly answer who will be a better ruler.

Based on what happened to the elven alienage, it seems clear that Anora is not as capable a ruler as she claims. How can someone who is supposedly intelligent, clever, smart, use such a draconian and uncivilized method of "solving" the alienage problem?



So what you think of Alistair or Anora is irrelevant. You should only look at their actions, so using the epilogue is the best way to answer the question of who the better ruler is.

[velmyn]

Out of curiosity...if you leave Anora to rule alone, what does she actually do? Does she do anything besides simply being a 'skillful ruler'?

To restate my opinion on the issue of the Alienage...simply doing things the same way they've always been done says absolutely nothing about Anora's supposed skill as a ruler. It's pretty obvious that while she doesn't care about the elves, she isn't particularly genocidal either.

Now, it's clearly stated that she had to use force to suppress said riot, and that means that enough people outside of the alienage got hurt that she had to do something about it. After that, racial tensions increase...meaning the 'volatile' situation in the alienage just gets worse...leaving the possibility of future riots.

Preventing that with further suppresion is essentially ruling with fear...which is a very, very clumsy way of playing politics. Considering the possible damage to other civilians, keeping the elves content(without giving them too much...if you don't care about them) is definitely preferable.

In any case, either Anora wasn't skillful enough to contain the situation despite her savvy, or she simply didn't care about the risk to her own people(humans...soldiers, some no doubt were hurt during the riot). Neither are marks of a skilled politician.

In contrast, dismissing what Alistair did simply because the entirety of Ferelden didn't develop a knife-ear fetish overnight is unfair. Look at the real-life parallels...the Emancipation Proclamation was...how many years ago? Some of the racial tensions still survive nonetheless. He may have not done a whole lot, but at least he did SOMETHING.

Either:
Alistair took a step in the right direction...trying to help the situation in the Alienage, and inviting the Dalish to live alongside the humans...
Or:
Alistair actually knows his politics, and keeps the elves in check by giving them the illusion that they finally have a say in the court. (judging his character, I doubt this...but maybe hardened? intentionally or not, the result is satisfactory)

Modifié par velmyn, 04 décembre 2009 - 11:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Alocormin wrote...

Well, Alistair's ending doesn't say prejudice disappears. It says it continues pretty healthily in fact, if I recall. But there's no crush in the Alienage resulting from his rule; I think anyone other than Alistair, including Cailan on the throne, would've crushed the alienage, and it's a little unfair to isolate Anora as being the one who would do that, as if it indicates her creating strife that wasn't already going to be there.

Don't think so. If oyu talk to Cailan as a city elf, he clearly shows sympathy for their plight and promises that he will change things for hte better. Alas, he never manages to, due ot Loghains backstab.
Hence, my character hates Loghain even more, as he destroyed one big opportunity to make things better for the elves. And then went into the opposite extreeme with the slavery bit. OH yeah..his head is so gonan roll when I finish this playtrough.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...

Yorenec wrote...

...Alistair's tantrum is more justified.

His tantrum is because he feels he was betrayed and that something which is generally considered a great honor is tainted, and to an extant, he's right.

So you argue that he thinks that the honor of the Grey Wardens is more important than defeating the Blight? If Alistair thinks so he is not very fit to rule in my book. Personally I think he simply lost it becuase he blames Loghain for Duncan's death. I played a Cousland male and I wanted to kill him badly for being rsponisble for my parents death, but I choose to remain above that, in the interest of Ferelden.

You argue that Loghian is needed to defeat the blight. You argue that there's no one alse in all of Denerim you can make a Grey Warden. And you're wrong on both accounts.
Killing Loghain is jsut as much in the interest of Ferelden as sparing him. In fact, in any realistic scenario, killing him would be more in the countries interest.
I'm sorry, but Allistair is completely justified.

[Lotion Soronarr]

On another not, is there any difference between endings is Allistair is hardened or not.



And:



Allistair (hardened)

Allistair (hardened) + Anora

Allistair (not hardened)

Allistair (not hardened) + Anora

Anora alone

Anora + PC

[Cyberpunk]

Allistair (hardened): Effective ruler. Elf in court. Popular king. No tensions. Grey Wardens strengthened.
Anora alone: "skillful" ruler. Alienage massacred. Statue of Loghain in front of Orlesian embassy.
Alistair (unhardened): Very popular king. No tensions. Elf in court.

Modifié par kooaznboi1088, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:52 .

[Cyrilix2]

This thread is quite interesting, so if you'll let me speak, I think Krigwin has debated this better than anyone else. I say, awesome job on the debating and for keeping me entertained! I hope to read more of these kinds of threads!

[Lotion Soronarr]

What about Allistair + Anora? Any changes?

And I'm kinda surprised that Allistair doesn't restore the GW's without being hardened...

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 décembre 2009 - 02:12 .

[Cyberpunk]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What about Allistair + Anora? Any changes?

And I'm kinda surprised that Allistair doesn't restore the GW's without being hardened...

Alistair does, but he does more if you harden him. Basically he does the same thing for the Grey Wardens if not hardened: give thems land. Maybe a bug in the epilogue.

I never let Anora marry Alistair and rule so I cannot answer your question. And Loghain always dies.

Modifié par kooaznboi1088, 04 décembre 2009 - 02:18 .

[taxtell]

I really wish there was the human female noble option:

Marry Alistair, become queen, execute Anora.



*grin*

[Original182]

taxtell wrote...

I really wish there was the human female noble option:
Marry Alistair, become queen, execute Anora.

*grin*

There was a guide teaching you how to be queen. So I think it's possible.

[Isaantia]

Original182 wrote...

taxtell wrote...

I really wish there was the human female noble option:
Marry Alistair, become queen, execute Anora.

*grin*

There was a guide teaching you how to be queen. So I think it's possible.

You can't execute Anora. Alistair puts her in the tower.  I'm just going to pretend I hired Zevran to execute her for me.

[Original182]

Isaantia wrote...

Original182 wrote...

taxtell wrote...

I really wish there was the human female noble option:
Marry Alistair, become queen, execute Anora.

*grin*

There was a guide teaching you how to be queen. So I think it's possible.

You can't execute Anora. Alistair puts her in the tower.  I'm just going to pretend I hired Zevran to execute her for me.

Well 2 out of 3 ain't bad.