385 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyberpunk]

Isaantia wrote...

You can't execute Anora. Alistair puts her in the tower.  I'm just going to pretend I hired Zevran to execute her for me.

We think exactly alike...except I married Anora on my Human Noble :O:O. Zevran of course stays....

[Toroi]

A very large portion of the "Anora is a selfish ****tch" crowd is just a bit naive, I think.  Now, anyone arguing that Anora is a selfless, good-hearted lady of impeccable honesty would be way off the mark, but I simply don't see her as this evil wench so many seem to see.  Not sure I've read any post where someone figured out her real motivation.

Think about it, what is the usual end fate of a deposed ruler?  Death, or maybe life locked in a tower . . . .

Anora's only way to have any kind of a life after this mess is resolved is to remain queen.  Her actions don't make her evil, they show that she's fighting for her life.  I can understand, and even admire, some well-planned scheming in the interests of self preservation.

Nor do I think the evidence shows that she doesn't care about the blight.  She does start to question her father, hence the imprisonment.  Don't forget the cutscence where she's trying to convince her father to let Orlais help.  She also, honestly believes she's a good ruler, and the evidence would seem to show that she is.  Does she have flaws?  Yes.  She seems to share the general racism of the majority of the people in Ferelden, for example.  Again, this isn't in and of iteself, evil - she's a product of her times.

As for her being a bad queen because of all that's going on, she has never had real power.  She led behind the scenes because her husband didn't care to deal with all the administrative tasks of being king.  She never led the armies, for example.  With her husband dead, she is now at the mercy of her father and Arl Howe.  She couldn't directly oppose them.  And she does seem to genuinely love her father, so she can be expected to try and not believe the worst of him right off the bat.

I think if you go through the events and try and put yourself in Anora's shoes, she comes across more as someone who really wants the best both for Ferelden and herself.   She uses the only tactics she has available to achieve her ends.

Modifié par Toroi, 04 décembre 2009 - 06:28 .

[Cyberpunk]

Toroi wrote...


Think about it, what is the usual end fate of a deposed ruler?  Death, or maybe life locked in a tower . . . .

Anora's only way to have any kind of a life after this mess is resolved is to remain queen.  Her actions don't make her evil, they show that she's fighting for her life.  I can understand, and even admire, some well-planned scheming in the interests of self preservation.

Arl Eamon: Do you swear fealty and renounce all claims to the throne for you and your heirs?

Anora: I will never do that

Arl Eamon: ...then you have just become a threat.


Okay, explain that? Anora would have been perfectly fine and healthy should she have sworn fealty to Alistair and renounce any claim to the throne.

So she has no excuse to be so power greedy. She just is though and deserving of the Zevran's blade.

And if she had the best interest of Feralden in mind, she would have supported Alistair and finally let Feralden have a united front against the Blight. Really she endangers her own life out of pure greed for power. And she is so prideful that she cannot accept defeat and so gets locked up in the tower.

Modifié par kooaznboi1088, 04 décembre 2009 - 09:19 .

[tmp7704]

kooaznboi1088 wrote...

 Really she endangers her own life out of pure greed for power.

This really makes no sense does it? I mean how is that "out of greed for power" when for all she knows she is just committing a suicide by refusing to stand down? (Alistair's decision to put her in the tower comes to her as surprise because like she says, she wouldn't be anywhere near as nice if the places were switched. And she indeed isn't in scenario where that switch does happen)

If the power was indeed all she wanted she'd just swear whatever oath she's supposed to, then staged a coup few months/years down the road (much like in the reverse scenario she fears Alistair would)  If anything it shows an opposite -- there's things she just won't do out of emotional reasons, throne and life be damned. Again, not unlike Alistair's own outburst over Loghain.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Toroi, you're basically right. I'm sure she would actually be a good ruler. But she's too much of a politician to be trusted.

[Krigwin]

Toroi wrote...
A very large portion of the "Anora is a selfish ****tch" crowd is just a bit naive, I think.  Now, anyone arguing that Anora is a selfless, good-hearted lady of impeccable honesty would be way off the mark, but I simply don't see her as this evil wench so many seem to see.  Not sure I've read any post where someone figured out her real motivation.

I've outlined what I believe to be Anora's true motivations in a detailed post earlier on in this thread. You're welcome to disagree with it and provide your own hypothesis if you so choose.

Think about it, what is the usual end fate of a deposed ruler?  Death, or maybe life locked in a tower . . . .

Anora's only way to have any kind of a life after this mess is resolved is to remain queen.  Her actions don't make her evil, they show that she's fighting for her life.  I can understand, and even admire, some well-planned scheming in the interests of self preservation.

I already answered this, earlier:

I cannot fault her for wanting to stay alive, but here's just the
thing: she could not have possibly known her fate if Alistair was to be
made King beforehand. She doesn't know Alistair and could not have
predicted he would lock her up, and indeed there is no way to kill her
in the game (nor do I believe Alistair would be bloodthirsty enough to
order her execution). This means her purpose was not to stay alive, but
rather to keep her throne instead, and she premeditated her schemes
before she even met you based on this purpose.

Anora already decided the fate of you and Alistair before she even met you. She premeditated her schemes (which involve killing you and Alistair) in cold blood. It's highly possible she could have remained on in some kind of advisor capacity, like Arl Eamon or Wynne, or else been allowed to live some kind of normal life or return to her life before she married Cailan. Alistair is not a killer, I do not believe he has it in him to order Anora's execution, and indeed the worst he does is lock her up in a tower, only because someone else told him she would be a threat. Don't forget, one of the options available is to even marry Alistair! Plus, life imprisonment doesn't sound that bad considering if you had the option available to you in this game, I'd have her executed along with Loghain.

She is not fighting to keep her life, but rather her throne. Whether this is for altruistic reasons or not is certainly up for debate, I personally believe it's not and ingame evidence more than supports my opinion.

Nor do I think the evidence shows that she doesn't care about the blight.  She does start to question her father, hence the imprisonment.  Don't forget the cutscence where she's trying to convince her father to let Orlais help.  She also, honestly believes she's a good ruler, and the evidence would seem to show that she is.  Does she have flaws?  Yes.  She seems to share the general racism of the majority of the people in Ferelden, for example.  Again, this isn't in and of iteself, evil - she's a product of her times.

Again, what evidence is this? You get a few lines about her being a "skilled governor" and a couple of lines about some of the people of Denerim liking her or some nonsense. Then there's the Alienage thing. But, okay, let's assume that she is indeed a good ruler. There is evidence still that Alistair is a better one, hardened or not.

As for her being a bad queen because of all that's going on, she has never had real power.  She led behind the scenes because her husband didn't care to deal with all the administrative tasks of being king.  She never led the armies, for example.  With her husband dead, she is now at the mercy of her father and Arl Howe.  She couldn't directly oppose them.  And she does seem to genuinely love her father, so she can be expected to try and not believe the worst of him right off the bat.

You just said there is evidence she was a good ruler. How can this be if she never ruled? You can't have it both ways - either she had no real power and therefore it's not her fault that the nation was driven to civil war and elves were being raped and kept as slaves, or she did have real power, in which case someone needs to provide an explanation for the poor state of Denerim under her rule.

I think if you go through the events and try and put yourself in Anora's shoes, she comes across more as someone who really wants the best both for Ferelden and herself.   She uses the only tactics she has available to achieve her ends.

Is one of those tactics betraying you at the Landsmeet and allying herself with her father, which she has spent a great deal of time working with you to bring down, simply because you don't agree she should be Queen?

I put myself in Anora's shoes. I looked at it every which way and played through the Landsmeet in every way I could think of. There are only two explanations for the sum of all her actions in the game - either she is exceptionally stupid and childish, which I don't think anyone in the world believes, or she is a snake.

[velmyn]

tmp7704 wrote...
If the power was indeed all she wanted she'd
just swear whatever oath she's supposed to, then staged a coup few
months/years down the road (much like in the reverse scenario she fears
Alistair would)  If anything it shows an opposite -- there's things she
just won't do out of emotional reasons, throne and life be damned.
Again, not unlike Alistair's own outburst over Loghain.

Of course, she's angry because she just lost the power struggle. This just puts her on the same level as Alistair, if not worse. Alistair's outburst is motivated by indignation...Anora's is motivated by...what? Do you honestly think that her attachment to the throne is because of her belief that she is the only hope for Ferelden? Besides, I thought part of the Anora 'appeal' is that she's able to can her emotions and do whatever is necessary for the country? (which included playing politics against her own father)

By swearing the oath of fealty, Anora is effectively letting go of any claim on the throne she has. Given she doesn't have any true blood connection to Theirin, any future prospect for regaining power flies out the window...and as a consequence, her treatment would have been much better.

She refuses the oath 'specifically' because she wants to hold onto the throne.(despite all evidence that her cause is lost) Even in exile, she has a far better chance as a 'deposed' monarch than in freedom as one who 'resigned' of regaining the throne. As a deposed monarch, she could argue that the throne was usurped(however a stretch that may be, given Alistair's claim), but if she abdicates and then tries to stage a coup...what is she going to say?

"You know erm...I know I resigned from the throne...but hey I was just kidding...I want it back so support me and fight against someone I 'accepted as my legitimate King!'"

She'd be lucky if the entirety of Ferelden doesn't point at laugh.

Lacking a large enough(or any even) loyal following that would do as she says without questioning her cause or justifications...not to mention Alistair is quite popular regardless of what you do to him, the idea of a coup is pretty unrealistic. As Loghain himself says, by the end of the Landsmeet it's 'over.'

Modifié par velmyn, 04 décembre 2009 - 10:31 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Ya know... What I find funny about this argument is that through all my playthroughs, she hasn't betrayed me or freaked out. Then again I considered Alistair's feelings foremost over the land that was constantly telling him to ****** off only to say RULE US afterward, I'd feel the same way about them buggering off if I was in his shoes.



So when I played Politics, Alistair got the throne with Anora if I was a dude and Anora got it if I was playing a chic. I saved the filthy masses from a damned blight, let the buggers save themselves from stupid politics. Stilled turned out alright overall, give or take a gaff or few from Anora.

[XOGHunter246]

shes an opportunist

[Axterix]

She's the rightful ruler of the land and she does it well.



Saw no reason whatsoever to hand the land over to an unacknowledged, wishy-washy no view of the future, daddy issued guy who didn't want to be king. Who, being a Warden, really shouldn't be involved in politics anyway.



I did try and set up Alistair to marry Anora though. Figured that'd be the best route. Anora's competency tempered by Alistair's goodness. My human noble's attempt to do what was best for her land. Unfortunately, Alistair threw a hissy fit about me sparing Loghain long enough to fight in the final battle, so the marriage thing didn't go off as planned. But that was all the more reason to leave Anora as Queen.

[Xandurpein]

Krigwin wrote...

Anora already decided the fate of you and Alistair before she even met you. She premeditated her schemes (which involve killing you and Alistair) in cold blood.

I assume you can produce some sort of evidence for this statement. I am not saying it's not within the realm of possibility (stretching it a bit), and you are certainly allowed to hold that opinion, but to state this as an obvious truth without evidence is ridiculous, seeing as you demand evidence from others.

Krigwin wrote...

You just said there is evidence she was a good ruler. How can this be if she never ruled? You can't have it both ways - either she had no real power and therefore it's not her fault that the nation was driven to civil war and elves were being raped and kept as slaves, or she did have real power, in which case someone needs to provide an explanation for the poor state of Denerim under her rule.

It is clearly stated in the codex that Anora had a lot of the real power as long as Cailen was king. When Cailen died Loghain assumed the real power and Anora could no longer control the kingdom as she had before. She proved herself a reasonably competent ruler taking care of running the country as long as Cailen was King, but was not primarily responsible for what happened when Loghain took over.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 04 décembre 2009 - 11:38 .

[037686]

Axterix wrote...

She's the rightful ruler of the land and she does it well.

No, she isn't.

Real-world Royal succession has never fallen to the party who married into the Royal line. It falls to the next heir of Royal blood, which she is not. If Cailan/Anora has a child, it would be that child, as the son of the reigning monarch. In a case where is no offspring, it would pass to the dead King's possible brother, then sister, and circulate outwards from there.

She has no more right to her position than anyone, and significantly less than many. Frankly, Arl Eamon has a better claim than her - as do many others.

[Toroi]

Too much grasping at straws here, I think. For example, I've yet to see evidence she had premeditated her schemes to have the PC and Alistair killed in cold blood. Also, as for giving up rights to the throne for her and her children, yeah, great option. Let's ask Harrowmount how well he did by pledging allegiance to Bhelen. . . . Of course, I think it would be stupid to deny that she wants to be queen. Sorry, but is wanting to keep your position as queen evil? I can't see why, especially when your replacement is Alistair. Yes, in the epilogue we learn he does a good job, but he fails to impress on first meeting - to put it kindly.



Also, she does "rule without power" for about five years. She does the actual governance because she is supported by her dreamer husband who lets her do it. However, he holds the actual power. When he dies, she no longer has the support and is left to fend for herself. A pretty scary situation for her, I'd imagine.



All the evidence shows me is that she is indeed a wily politician and very much out to protect herself, both her life and her position. Losing the queenship for her at worst means death, at best it means loss of everything except her life. Of course she'll refuse to give up her claims, its all she's got left. She's not nearly as "good" a person as Alistair, but she's not some evil fiend, either.



Just goes to show how people can see the same evidence so differently.

[tmp7704]

037686 wrote...

Real-world Royal succession has never fallen to the party who married into the Royal line. It falls to the next heir of Royal blood, which she is not. If Cailan/Anora has a child, it would be that child, as the son of the reigning monarch. In a case where is no offspring, it would pass to the dead King's possible brother, then sister, and circulate outwards from there.

It works like that in some real-world countries, in some others it work(ed) different. Based on information from the Codex and such Ferelden seems to be one of these places where it works different -- it's the freeholders who ultimately get to decide about who is put on the throne shall the current ruler perish. Being of royal blood can be a plus when vying to get chosen but little more than just that.

[velmyn]

Toroi wrote...
Also, as for giving up
rights to the throne for her and her children, yeah, great option.
Let's ask Harrowmount how well he did by pledging allegiance to Bhelen.
. . . Of course, I think it would be stupid to deny that she wants to
be queen. Sorry, but is wanting to keep your position as queen evil? I
can't see why, especially when your replacement is Alistair. Yes, in
the epilogue we learn he does a good job, but he fails to impress on
first meeting - to put it kindly.

...and refusing to swear the oath does what?

Anora has good reason to think that she may be executed anyway...but the fact that Arl Eamon even bothers to ask shows that he at the very least is willing to be civil on this matter. Of course, Anora does what every smart person would do and shows him the finger.

Nobody is arguing that she's bad just because she wants to be Queen...it's what she's willing to do for it. It's obvious that power matters to her more than Ferelden. Add the results when she finally does become Queen, or lack thereof(unless anyone shows otherwise), it begs the question whether all her political maneuvering(or backstabbing if you will) was worth it.

Toroi wrote...
All
the evidence shows me is that she is indeed a wily politician and very
much out to protect herself, both her life and her position. Losing the
queenship for her at worst means death, at best it means loss of
everything except her life. Of course she'll refuse to give up her
claims, its all she's got left. She's not nearly as "good" a person as
Alistair, but she's not some evil fiend, either.

Just goes to show how people can see the same evidence so differently.

So we DO agree that she considers holding onto power more important than what happens Ferelden. Fine by me.

Modifié par velmyn, 05 décembre 2009 - 12:31 .

[cglasgow]

The point is, Anora had absolutely no reason to believe that staying queen was her only hope of staying alive and free. Arl Eamon says flat-out that as long as she acknowledges Alistair as king and yields her claim, nothing will happen to her. And its Arl Eamon talking, not Arl Howe -- dude has a reputation for keeping his end of a bargain.

So, her refusal at this point isn't about survival, its about wanting that shiny shiny crown no matter what.

Note also that Arl Eamon, before the Landsmeet phase, says that he hopes to defeat Loghain politically and quickly because otherwise he would have to surrender to Loghain to save the kingdom. There is no time for any kind of civil war, or else the darkspawn will win. Arl Eamon is willing to take a knee if that's the only way to keep Ferelden from being destroyed.

Anora? When its her turn to face the same choice, she makes the exact opposite decision.

Modifié par cglasgow, 05 décembre 2009 - 12:36 .

[tmp7704]

velmyn wrote...

Of course, she's angry because she just lost the power struggle. This just puts her on the same level as Alistair, if not worse. Alistair's outburst is motivated by indignation...Anora's is motivated by...what?

Also indignation, perhaps? Her father just got his head publicly looped off and the guy who did it is about to become the ruler of the country, despite her honest belief (based on years of personal experience with his half-brother) he's a poor choice compared to her. I wouldn't really blame her if her reaction to it was "well screw it then and you all too, you get what you deserve and just kill me right here; at least i get to see my Father again when you do".
 

Do you honestly think that her attachment to the throne is because of her belief that she is the only hope for Ferelden?

I think it's part of the attachment. Not really the melodramatic black-white "the only hope" stuff that's useful for these forum debates to marginalize the other side's position, but she just knows she can govern the country well as she's already been doing it for years with good result. If you know you're good at something and that it can do many people good and you get opportunity to do this very thing, then doing nothing about it and letting it just pass would be pretty stupid.

She refuses the oath 'specifically' because she wants to hold onto the throne.(despite all evidence that her cause is lost) Even in exile, she has a far better chance as a 'deposed' monarch than in freedom as one who 'resigned' of regaining the throne. As a deposed monarch, she could argue that the throne was usurped(however a stretch that may be, given Alistair's claim), but if she abdicates and then tries to stage a coup...what is she going to say?

Except she realizes perfectly well that refusing to swear the oath means death sentence. She is not going to become "deposed monarch" in such case, she's going to become the next corpse on the Landsmeet carpet. Which also answers your question regarding what she could say afterwards if she did as told -- that she had no choice but to give up her throne or be executed on the spot. A perfectly plausible claim since it's apparently typical way to handle such cases at least in Ferelden (if i recall right it's Arl Eamon who calls for it and no one really but Alistair flinches at the thought?)

[tmp7704]

cglasgow wrote...

So, her refusal at this point isn't about survival, its about wanting that shiny shiny crown no matter what.

But she is not going to keep the crown if she says "no" at that point and she knows it. Honestly, even a total imbecile completely oblivious to the politics would know it, and she is neither.

To claim that her motivation at that point is wanting to keep the crown simply makes no sense. It's like saying the guy who stands in front of the speeding train clearly is doing it because they wants to stop it*. If they are complete idiot sure, maybe. But if they aren't i'm afraid such explanation just doesn't fly.

*) doing it in a manner that ensures the train don't have room to actually stop, just to make it clear.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 décembre 2009 - 12:54 .

[Toroi]

Again, I wouldn't argue that she doesn't want the shiny crown. She most definitely does. But how, exactly, is that sacrificing Ferelden? She could quite legitimately believe that she'd do a better job as queen in fighting off the blight than Alistair would. He's a nice guy, but never given any indication he'd be a good leader - quite the opposite, he has always preferred to be a follower.



And if I was Anora, I'd take any promises of freedom from Arl Eamon with a grain of salt. After all, Alistair is going to be king, and he rather stridently insisted on her father's death. I'd be a bit worried in her shoes. Also, what's left for her even if she is allowed to live free afterwards? With her father's betrayal, she won't have any status or position. She becomes a tavern wench somewhere? She might almost prefer death to that kind of humiliation, really. She strikes me as rather proud, after all.



She's not about to be sainted, but there are simply so many possible downsides to her situation that its just hard for me to accept that she's some evil fiend that puts herself above Ferelden. I think she rather loves her country and there is nothing in the game I've seen so far that indicates otherwise. Politicians battle it out all the time to win elections, often quite nastily, and yet they get elected. All she's doing here is being a politician.

[Krigwin]

Xandurpein wrote...
I assume you can produce some sort of evidence for this statement. I am not saying it's not within the realm of possibility (stretching it a bit), and you are certainly allowed to hold that opinion, but to state this as an obvious truth without evidence is ridiculous, seeing as you demand evidence from others.

Her very first action upon being made acting ruler, in the event of Loghain being kept alive, is to execute Alistair. She doesn't even try to tiptoe around it and maybe give some kind of nonsensical excuse about Alistair being insane or mentally unstable or something (after all, he did just throw a humongous tantrum), she states very explicitly that she wants Alistair dead because he is a possible future threat to her power. This in spite of the fact that you and Alistair have risked life and limb and even braved possible imprisonment on her behalf, all to help put her on the throne. She never even gave him a chance. Do you really believe this was a spur of the moment decision, especially for someone as methodical and calculating as Anora?

As for trying to get you dead, I've already pointed out all the ways she's planned that. Starting with sending you on a fool's errand into the lair of one of your most powerful enemies as the very first communication she has with you.

It is clearly stated in the codex that Anora had a lot of the real power as long as Cailen was king. When Cailen died Loghain assumed the real power and Anora could no longer control the kingdom as she had before. She proved herself a reasonably competent ruler taking care of running the country as long as Cailen was King, but was not primarily responsible for what happened when Loghain took over.

But a lot of these things - the Alienage, the crime, the civil war, were already occurring in the very brief 5 years that she was a behind the throne power, or governing without power, or whatever else you people want to use to try to justify her poor leadership. Do you not see how flawed this logic is? "She's a good ruler because of all the good stuff that happened under her rule, except for all of the bad stuff which is not her fault, and of course the bad stuff that happens in future if she is allowed to remain Queen, that doesn't count either."

Toroi wrote...
Sorry, but is wanting to keep your position as queen evil? I can't see why, especially when your replacement is Alistair.

No one is saying that it is. But consider the steps she takes to ensure that she remains Queen, and the steps she's willing to take against anyone who opposes her, some of those steps clearly being bad for Ferelden. Consider that she's point-blank unwilling to compromise or cooperate, and in fact willing to kill anyone who gets in her way, even those who have supported her willingly. There's being a politician, and then there's just being a cutthroat *****.

Toroi wrote...
And if I was Anora, I'd take any promises of freedom from Arl Eamon
with a grain of salt. After all, Alistair is going to be king, and he
rather stridently insisted on her father's death. I'd be a bit worried
in her shoes. Also, what's left for her even if she is allowed to live
free afterwards.

Like I said, it's highly possible she could've remained on in an advisory capacity like Eamon or Wynne. Alistair is forgiving and not nearly as quick to call for execution as Anora is, and after all she did just help you and Alistair bring down Loghain. Plus, you and Alistair did just, I dunno, rescue her and do everything that she told you to do. If she was sincere and, you know, not evil, she should be looking at you both as loyal allies willing to cooperate with her. If she really is in fear of her life as you claim, then the only explanations are either she's incredibly stupid, or she wasn't sincere and is really just a snake.

In the end, it comes down to two things:

1. Given the steps she's taken to remain Queen, those being the possible execution of Alistair, the numerous occasions she possibly betrays you even though you've risked your own life to help her, and the incredibly dubious "rescue me from Howe!" situation, is she truly doing what's best for Ferelden? Or is she just doing what's best for her? Does she even believe herself that the two are the same (again, remember her unwillingness to compromise and shaky at best track record)?

2. Are her actions within the game justified, even from her point of view? Even if you want to play the politican card and just say "oh, she's just doing some wily political manuevering, she's such a fox!"? Those actions being of course, setting you up, betraying you with Cauthrien, betraying you again at the Landsmeet, calling for Alistair's death, and in general using you like a toolbox. If you get played and her plans all succeed, was it justified in the end? 

[SarEnyaDor]

You don't even have to oppose Anora for her to turn on you, you can simply be too occuppied enchanting in your camp and forget to talk to her and then she's all "The Grey Wardens are liars! They're trying to destroy Ferelden blah blah besmirching my father, hero of River Dane..."

[Tamyn]

If she really cared about what's best for Ferelden she wouldn't lie to me about only wanting her father out of power (because he's crazy! she says), even if she couldn't be queen, then betray me at the Landsmeet and risk the deaths of the last Grey Wardens in Ferelden with the Blight on its doorstep.

She only cares about her power. Once that's secured, only then will she consider things like the survival of the nation. The only reason I see why she wanted to betray her father is because he locked her up, essentially removing her from power and possibly threatening her life. The fact that she turns on a dime to betray you (key to saving the nation), siding with Loghain (the crazy guy, remember?) again shows what a cold-hearted **** she really is.

If you and Alistair are locked up in Fort Drakon she very clearly doesn't want him rescued. She hopes to manipulate you into supporting her, because anybody's better than Loghain, right? The only way to not have her betray you at the Landsmeet is to promise her you'll support her claim to the throne. I got some small satisfaction lying to her about granting her my support then fully supporting Alistair at the Landsmeet instead. She has no surprised reaction when that occurs, strangely enough.

Modifié par Tamyn, 05 décembre 2009 - 03:22 .

[velmyn]

tmp7704 wrote...
Also indignation, perhaps? Her father just got his head publicly looped off and the guy who did it is about
to become the ruler of the country, despite her honest belief (based on years of personal experience with his half-brother) he's a poor choice compared to her. I wouldn't really blame her if her reaction to it was
"well screw it then and you all too, you get what you deserve and just kill me right here; at least i get to see my Father again when you do".

Except that I recall she will still take the crown even if you have Loghain executed. The only thing that changes is you can't have Alistair marry Anora since she won't marry her father's executioner.

If it was indignation, Anora would refuse the crown no matter what if you have Loghain executed. On the other hand, if she honestly believed Loghain to be guilty and punishable(which you may pretend to believe if you support her from the start) she should be the one PUSHING for his execution.

It's not...

tmp7704 wrote...
I think it's part of the attachment. Not really the melodramatic black-white "the only hope" stuff that's useful for these forum debates to marginalize the other side's position, but she just knows she can govern the country
well as she's already been doing it for years with good result. If you know you're good at something and that it can do many people good and you get opportunity to do this very thing, then doing nothing about it and letting it just pass would be pretty stupid.

Of course, and the best way to do this is make sure you betray anyone who doesn't listen to you. It's nice that you felt the need to poke at the statement, since my point was that given what she's willing to do and her unwillingness to submit, she cares more about power than she does about Ferelden...or anyone.

tmp7704 wrote...
Except she realizes perfectly well that refusing to swear the oath means death sentence. She is not going to become "deposed monarch" in such case, she's going to become the next corpse on the Landsmeet carpet. Which also answers your question regarding what she could say afterwards if she did as told -- that she had no choice but to give up her throne or be executed on the spot. A perfectly plausible claim since it's apparently typical way to handle such cases at least in Ferelden (if i recall right it's Arl Eamon who calls for it and no one really but
Alistair flinches at the thought?)

Sigh.

The post I was responding to argues to the effect that she refuses to submit because it's the 'right thing,' and that if she was just manipulative she would submit and stage a coup later. It's not a very bright idea.

As to what she says...take a look at Chinese history for example. Pretty much every long-lasting dynasty was either built around killing off every single rival warlord, or 'forcing' the current ruler to 'willingly' abdicate. Those that tried to establish a dynasty without the capability to pull off one or the other were either laughed off or killed off.

Legitimacy(not just in the 'royal bastard' sense) is big deal. The nobility has power, true, but they also derive their strength from their vassals and men-at-arms. Even if the Bann or Arl himself sees the benefit, he still needs to find a way to motivate his troops: a cause. This was the same thing that happened during the Crusades...one of the reasons was that the Pope simply feared growing Muslim influence, but he motivated the faithful by claiming it God's will to reclaim Jerusalem.

Swearing the oath in the case of Anora, means severing all ties to the throne. She's essentially renouncing the best reason she could have ever had for such a coup. It would be akin to the Pope saying 'F Jerusalem...it doesn't count as a holy site' and then asking the European nations to retake it for him.

Staging such a coup anyway now means that she's not retaking what's 'rightfully' hers, she's stealing it...and how many neutral nobles do you think are going to be persuaded by such an empty cause? How will they convince their vassals? The majority of Fereldan nobility may be callous,(which I don't believe to be the case) but they're hardly anything like Arl Howe, and none are loyal enough to Anora that they would rally for her regardless.

So, even if the plan could be put into motion, it's likely to be a military coup, and that just adds another problem...how the hell is she going to do that? Nothing suggests that she's knows anything about war, and most likely Loghain is dead. The only one who might be loyal is her elven handmaiden.

Loghain was able to pull of what he did because he commanded the loyalty of his troops, including Ser Cauthrien. He was more or less a hero at the time...and THAT is why the nobility in Ferelden fell in line. Some still had reservations...if that shows how damn hard it is to keep the nobility in check.

No...there is no way swearing the oath would ever allow her to regain the throne...and that's my point. It's more likely that she's risking death so she can leave some chance at regaining the throne than her doing so because it's the right thing, or it's because she cares.

Personally, I think it's just her version of a hissyfit.

Modifié par velmyn, 05 décembre 2009 - 04:03 .

[cglasgow]

Also, the idea that Anora was in fear for her life because her dad just got his head lopped off is ridiculous. Loghain is guilty of high treason in 31 different flavors. Anora is guilty only of being a losing politician.   Nothing in Arl Eamon's background even remotely suggests he has people killed for the sole "crime" of being politicially inconvenient.   (As opposed to, oh, Anora herself, see above re: Alistair's execution in some endings.)

Tangentially related, note Anora's cold-bloodedness in throwing her support back to Loghain: for a renewed shot at political power, she is willing to have the back of her husband's murderer.

Modifié par cglasgow, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:14 .

[Xandurpein]

Krigwin wrote...

Her very first action upon being made acting ruler, in the event of Loghain being kept alive, is to execute Alistair. She doesn't even try to tiptoe around it and maybe give some kind of nonsensical excuse about Alistair being insane or mentally unstable or something (after all, he did just throw a humongous tantrum), she states very explicitly that she wants Alistair dead because he is a possible future threat to her power.

That is your scenario and you are of course free to promote it, but it's not evidence. There have been numerous other equally valid explanations for her wanting to kill Alistair here. I do not defend her action, I think it is morally wrong, but I fail to how this proves that she intended to kill Alistair all along. It is equally possible it was a hissyfit, and it is in fact quite easy to talk her out of it. Let me also point out that there is no mention in the ending of Anora trying to have Alistair assassinated after the Blight. If he ends up a pathetic drunk, then how hard could he have been to kill?

Krigwin wrote...

As for trying to get you dead, I've already pointed out all the ways she's planned that. Starting with sending you on a fool's errand into the lair of one of your most powerful enemies as the very first communication she has with you

Why stop there? Why not include Duncan, Bann Teagan and just about any questgiver in the game into the conspiracy? They are all trying to send you into horrible dungeons full of enemies. Isn't it obviously a conspiracy to kill you? 
Don't confuse the game logic with murderous intent.

Krigwin wrote...

Consider that she's point-blank unwilling to compromise or cooperate... There's being a politician, and then there's just being a cutthroat *****.

It is very easy to talk Anora into pardoning Alistair, it doesn't even take a persuade check. You have options barter and to get her to cooperate, including marriage to the man you claim she is only out to kill. (and no... she does not try to assassinate Alistair when she marries him either!). She may have her priorities wrong about the Blight, which may or may not depend on ignorance, but whatever her faults, I do not see how you can claim she is not able to compromise, solely on the grounds that she has a major tantrum at the Landsmeet.

Krigwin wrote...

But a lot of these things - the Alienage, the crime, the civil war, were already occurring in the very brief 5 years that she was a behind the throne power, or governing without power, or whatever else you people want to use to try to justify her poor leadership. Do you not see how flawed this logic is? "She's a good ruler because of all the good stuff that happened under her rule, except for all of the bad stuff which is not her fault, and of course the bad stuff that happens in future if she is allowed to remain Queen, that doesn't count either."

Ferelden is a medieval kingdom, it's clearly not an ideal place to start with. The alienage and crime is part of Ferelden and not Anora's doing. The civil war is her fathers doing and Anora isn't even there to influence the events when Cailen and Loghain fall out, before Ostergard. The game states she ends up a competent ruler signalling a Golden Age for Ferelden. Ayone can of course argue that this or that decision of hers is wrong and in some cases I would agree. My opinion is that this does not equate to her being an overall bad ruler, but of course you are allowed to feel differently.

I don't mind discussing personal opinions of Alistair and Anora as rulers, as long as we separate facts from opinions, but on the whole I am only here to argue that Anora is a decent, if flawed monarch, not some evil mastermind. I belive that given the circumstances it is perfectly reasonable for a MC to decide that Anora would make a better ruler  than Alistair, even though I have no problem with other people choosing the other way. It is after all a matter of personal opinion. Then there is roleplay too. On my first play, my MC more or less fell for Anora (which may indeed be asking for trouble), my second MC didn't like her very much at all.

To me it ultimatly boils down to the question if I think that just because she really wants to be Queen, that fact in it self proves that she would not be a good Queen. I think that is not so, and I have already stated my reasons why previously.

It would also help if people tried their best to separate, fact, opinions and roleplay in arguments.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 05 décembre 2009 - 09:34 .