110 réponses à ce sujet

[Headrusher]

You my friend, have put more thought into the ending, than any and all of the Bioware writers.

This is the real tragedy here that I see.

[RShara]

OP I am linking to your post whenever people are accused of not thinking about it deeply enough

[Billabong2011]

This is.... utterly brilliant.
I don't...... have anything else to say. I am blown away. This was extraordinarily well thought out; very perceptive of you. I look forward to reading the rest!

((P.S. Bioware should hire you as their lead writer. Just saying.))

[Madecologist]

RShara wrote...

OP I am linking to your post whenever people are accused of not thinking about it deeply enough

Hehehe. I know. The truth is... the more I think about the ending... the more I Hulk out about it. I don't know why some assume we hate it because we don't get it. Oh we get it alright... we get it all too well.

[Talhydras]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

They cease the slaughter of the Quarians once they have decisively won their independence, and develop themselves in peace.

While I don't recall any definitive numbers on pre-Morning War population numbers for Rannoch, I think we can assume it was probably in the billions; the Migrant Fleet's down to less than a hundredth of that. I know Legion states that the Geth broke off pursuit of the Quarians once they had won and that implies that the Geth merely waged a war of independence, but I have to admit there's a pretty big gulf between securing freedom and safety and annihilating 99 out of every 100 quarians.

So what do you think? Plothole, feature, or reflective of my own lack of lore mastery? For instance, was it mentioned that the quarians in desperation decided on a massive thermonuclear bombardment of their homeworld that happened to catch most of their people in the firestorm? Was the Quarian resolve so steely that the Geth were reduced to annihilating the Quarians en masse, as every Quarian could rationally be conceived of as an immediate threat? Or does Legion have a rose-tinted flashlight when it looks back on the Morning War, and only thinks of the 'noble' goal of achieving freedom for its people instead of what unavoidably must have been an unimaginable slaughter of hundreds of millions. Could it be a lack of information on the Morning War as well - that the Quarians were exiled with some far larger portion of their population intact after the first bout with the Geth and the Morning War really was a series of conflicts the Quarians lost decisively, each time with greater casualties, until they were reduced to their current numbers?

There's other wrinkles too - I can justify both positive population growth and negative population growth of the Quarians in their migrant days. Rapid population decline due to extremely limited numbers of ships and nobody willing to help them, plagues, huge refugee die-offs, or perhaps slow population growth as the flotilla expands and total housing capacity increases with it.  Either scenario changes the proportion of the Quarian race the Geth annihilated - possibly even increasing it.

I dunno. Just fishing for your thoughts here, as the character of the morning war as a fight for freedom for the Geth or species-scale butchery very much ties into the Frankenstein theme of ME.

Modifié par Talhydras, 24 mars 2012 - 10:35 .

[Vox Draco]

I add a comment mostly because so much good work should not be buried under the avalanche of new threads and posts added every minute.

And of course I want to credit the author. Quite an interesting read.

But again, it makes me sad to think that Bioware obviously didn't care about their own creation as much as "some" of their "more passionate" fans.

And once more I have to think about "artistic integrity"...For me, that should also mean "If you believe to have a brilliant and artistic idea...integrate it PROPERLY into your masterpiece!"

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Kawamura wrote...

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

Firstly, there is the fact that Frankenstein's Monster suddenly becomes the driving thematic element of the entire trilogy. It was not before, and I will take the time to show this, but that is the topic of another discussion.

Yes. It's almost three am, so I might be a bit reptative or forgotten what else you wrote in here, but this was very important to me to see verbalized by someone else. I got into a conversation with someone who I don't really respect intellectually and they were essentially trying to tell me that the point of ME was the awareness of futility and Frankenstein's monster. 

I might be reading you incorrectly, but it seems to me that you're talking about how the issue that ME focuses on is not so much Frankenstein's monster, but determinism vs the individiual's ability to change their world on their own, with only the help of other similar individuals and not god-like outside powers. I feel that the shift in focus to Frankenstein's monster is part of that sudden and jarring thematic shift, and that it could've been done, but it would have had to have been done far, far earlier and with more explanation than what was given.

Or something. Like I said, it's three am. 

Well there is a lot of overlap between themes of self-determination and free will, and what I call here Frankenstein's Monster. The latter is a much more specific trope or theme.

But I would 100% agree with you that the question of individual identity and free will is one of the major themes of the trilogy, and in terms of sheer content, it takes precedence over what I discuss in this post. Until the ending, that is.

That is definitely something I plan to go over in the future.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Talhydras wrote...

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

They cease the slaughter of the Quarians once they have decisively won their independence, and develop themselves in peace.

While I don't recall any definitive numbers on pre-Morning War population numbers for Rannoch, I think we can assume it was probably in the billions; the Migrant Fleet's down to less than a hundredth of that. I know Legion states that the Geth broke off pursuit of the Quarians once they had won and that implies that the Geth merely waged a war of independence, but I have to admit there's a pretty big gulf between securing freedom and safety and annihilating 99 out of every 100 quarians.

So what do you think? Plothole, feature, or reflective of my own lack of lore mastery? For instance, was it mentioned that the quarians in desperation decided on a massive thermonuclear bombardment of their homeworld that happened to catch most of their people in the firestorm? Was the Quarian resolve so steely that the Geth were reduced to annihilating the Quarians en masse, as every Quarian could rationally be conceived of as an immediate threat? Or does Legion have a rose-tinted flashlight when it looks back on the Morning War, and only thinks of the 'noble' goal of achieving freedom for its people instead of what unavoidably must have been an unimaginable slaughter of hundreds of millions. Could it be a lack of information on the Morning War as well - that the Quarians were exiled with some far larger portion of their population intact after the first bout with the Geth and the Morning War really was a series of conflicts the Quarians lost decisively, each time with greater casualties, until they were reduced to their current numbers?

There's other wrinkles too - I can justify both positive population growth and negative population growth of the Quarians in their migrant days. Rapid population decline due to extremely limited numbers of ships and nobody willing to help them, plagues, huge refugee die-offs, or perhaps slow population growth as the flotilla expands and total housing capacity increases with it.  Either scenario changes the proportion of the Quarian race the Geth annihilated - possibly even increasing it.

I dunno. Just fishing for your thoughts here, as the character of the morning war as a fight for freedom for the Geth or species-scale butchery very much ties into the Frankenstein theme of ME.

Without an official cannon source, it's hard to say for sure. From what I know about it, the information provided is pretty vague.

I would think that any of the things you mentioned are plausible. I personally would trust Legion's word, because he never lies that I know of (except for one lie of omission). The fact that the Quarians are still resentful over the ordeal and entertaining the idea of an all out war to retake their homeworld even while Reapers are invading the rest of the galaxy would seem to show that they have a lot of resolve on the matter. It is likely that they didn't give up lightly.

Given the state of life in the Flotilla I would assume that their numbers were at least stifled, if not decreased, for some time after the Morning War. Possibly for any of the reasons you brought up.

Honestly, if they didn't put it in the game, odds are they didn't really think about it or think we needed to know.

[Rombomm]

Oh my... this is just... Wow.

Good job. Hope somebody from Bioware gets to read this.

[bahamutomega]

Madecologist wrote...

But the Catalyst is right! It's a kid. So what it says has to be true!

Alright, I am being sarcastic. But I do agree, the Catalyst's thematic veto that it throws down is against the themes that seemed to have been naturally building up in the whole series. It's not even clever on its own either. "The created will always rebel against the creator." Fact. There is nothing unique, original or clever about it. Then add in that one of the solution is to rewrite the galaxy. Seriously... where did that come from?!

It is like you are watching an episode of Outer Limits, and not even one of the good ones. Like one of the really bad ones like the Femi**** planet or something like that (I wish I was making this up).

Also, the use of the child as the Catalyst is transparent. It is obvious they wanted us to 'accept' and believe the Catalyst, so they make it the child. Because it is the child we will be sympathetic to it. Because kids are good and innocent and always right... I hope I am wrong about this. Because if I am right... it is a slap to the face to the player. You convince the audience to believe, you don't tell them to believe.

I should really stop thinking about the end... it always works up a good mad in me.

they used the kid because they wanted to us to connect the child we saw in the beginning of the game (and the dreams) - the child was expected to guilt Shepard into making one of those three choices.  the Catalyst couldn't damn well show up as a reaper or as a huge, disembodied head (a la Wizard of Oz).

[nomoredruggs]

Interesting post.

It's nice when you get people that can eloquently explain why we feel so disconnected from the ending.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...
My disappointment stems from the amount of potential here that is
ignored. Instead of asking questions or encouraging thought about what
artificial life means from either a literal or symbolic standpoint, the
ending thoughtlessly closes the debate. Instead of a rich and layered
allegory pointing to the will of humanity and its place in the Cosmos,
there is a simple and formally invalid argument which supports itself
with its own premise. What drove us to this conclusion?


Are
artificially created or manipulated life forms, being self-aware,
deserving of respect, dignity and rights? “No,” says the Catalyst.


“The created will always rebel against their creators.”


And that is all.

When the Catalyst started to explain his motivations, I actually liked it because I thought Shepard would have a chance to argue the point with him.  Silly me.

Also, if you broaden the definition of 'the created' then don't the uplifted Krogan kind of fit this theme as well, albeit from a different perspective?

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...


When the Catalyst started to explain his motivations, I actually liked it because I thought Shepard would have a chance to argue the point with him.  Silly me.

Also, if you broaden the definition of 'the created' then don't the uplifted Krogan kind of fit this theme as well, albeit from a different perspective?

Why do you think I said,

"Are artificially created or manipulated life forms, being self-aware, deserving of respect, dignity and rights?"

Very perceptive, my friend. However, I am saving that particular question for my discussion of what I consider the next major theme of the ending; Transhumanism.

[Baronesa]

Wodnerful post, and as Gyroscopic_Trout said, it is linked with the whole Krogan theme. Now I'm really looking forward to read your take on it.

I said this before on one of those buried threads... If you can accept spacebrat's logic, then you surely didn't cured the genophage and let the Rachni queen die. Appeals to genocide, no matter how sugar coated or disguised, are still appeals to genocide.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Baronesa wrote...

Wodnerful post, and as Gyroscopic_Trout said, it is linked with the whole Krogan theme. Now I'm really looking forward to read your take on it.

I said this before on one of those buried threads... If you can accept spacebrat's logic, then you surely didn't cured the genophage and let the Rachni queen die. Appeals to genocide, no matter how sugar coated or disguised, are still appeals to genocide.

Yo're right, and now that you mention it, that is something I wish I would have worked in. The ending goes through a lot of trouble to redefine morality and the identity of life in general to make genocide and coercive eugenics more palatable.

[Utopianus]

Excellent post! Maybe one day people will be writing essays about Mass Effect as they are now writing about Star Wars.

[Chai Te]

Very well thought out and presented. I look forward to the next part.
This shift in theme upset me and the absolute way it was presented stuck in my craw, but there was no way I could express that as well as you have.

[dgumb]

Excellent post, marking this for later. Look forward to reading the rest of your analysis. Thanks.

[nitefyre410]

 Op this was an Amazing read and I can not wait for part two... so bum and a    

 

for you... this is very good and shows you have a much better understanding of the themes that Bioware was trying to present then they do.. 

good job. 

[Lupus Canivus]

Excellent read, well done.




Hold the line!

[Sarz91]

Fantastic post. You've managed to present your points and thought on the matter in a readable and interesting way. Something I could not do. I can only hope that more people read this as opposed to aimlessly posting about a poor ending. Thank you.

[chrrue_]

Nice read

[Cobra's_back]

Excellent post. Thank you.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

Why do you think I said,

"Are artificially created or manipulated life forms, being self-aware, deserving of respect, dignity and rights?"

Ah, missed that bit, my bad.

Love the analysis by the way.

[Enichan]

Excellent analysis of yet another reason why the Ending doesn't work, even if taken in isolation and accepting its premise of what the themes of the Mass Effect series really are.