110 réponses à ce sujet

[Si777]

If BW put half as much thought into the ending we wouldnt be here
really good peace,

[billida]

i post so that more people can read this.

Good job, the theme shift was also my main problem with the ending.

[Novouto]

Very good read. Helps put into words why we all know the ending is wrong.

[-PG-Skyre]

Great read and lots to think about. Cheers mate.

[Timberley]

I would definitely agree with you OP.

You definitely expressed in more eloquent terms what I have been thinking. The Geth-Quarian war was worked through as an alternative to the classic idea of the Frankenstein's Monster parable, and the shades of grey involved with all of the characters invoked feeling one way or another.

The further theme of individuality was explored when Legion voluntarily gave up 'his' life so that the other Geth would experience the concept of each unit being (for want of a better word) a person. To give it a bit of a religious slant, in this case Legion was the prophet leading his flock towards a new country (that of individual expression), through the Red Sea of prejudice and mistrust that had built up on both sides throughout the centuries.

Furthermore, in the Krogan-Salarian situation, the gnostic ideas bring forth the Salarians as the Demiurge. In this case (assuming you took the paragon path) the demiurge sacrifices himself to allow the created to flourish (I may be mixing my metaphors - I'm not as knowledgable with the gnostic ideas as I am with others) without his interference. Not quite heading towards the enlightenment of the Geth, but a start.

The fact that our previous experiences with the races had said much about the value of the individual within society, and the creation of a 'shared unity' (if you will) that the Protheans lacked (their singular empire making them predictable), to counter such bold assertions made by the Catalyst, made the various subtleties of the Geth-Quarian and Krogan-Salarian that much richer, and the ending seem that much more crass and out of sorts in its attempts to be profound.

But, this might just be a comparative retread of your original post. (The short hand version, if you will! )

Tim

[Cyneburh]

Great read, OP. You definitely brought to light something I had been trying to pinpoint, that the ending sacrificed the previous established characterization of the geth.

The Catalyst's logic was like an out-of-left-field thesis without any evidence whatsoever. Worse, even, in that our own experiences in the game outright contradict his supposed inevitable, indisputable truth. The writers could've done themselves a favor by at least letting the Catalyst give a little exposition on its origin and, since it apparently came up with the idea for the Reapers, their origin as well.

One of the ideas I've been toying around with is that the Catalyst was an AI that either witnessed from the sidelines the destruction of the organic race that created it, or even participated in it. Sometime in the aftermath, though, it either regretted (being an AI) its actions, or approached the issue like a machine would and determined that the remainder of organic and synthetic life in the galaxy should be held to the same standard. This latter idea would work especially if the Catalyst was originally some sort of sentinel program meant to safeguard information regarding its race--such as Vigil. Overall, it's the "corroded prerogative" idea I've seen floating around here quite a bit.

...But we're not given any sort of explanation like this. And people can argue until they're blue in the face about a dying Shepard not really being at liberty to discuss philosophy and history, but Shepard didn't absolutely have to be put into that situation prior to this much-anticipated unveiling, either.

[Ampmaster]

Applause sir, a very interesting analysis on the subject.

[Personuknow]

I read through this thread last night, and thought it was very sound and well thought out.

What prompted me to post, and what I didn't read last night, was your name, OP.

Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

[dbl219]

I took the time to read the entire post, and I'm thoroughly impressed. Intriguing, engaging, and presented as a classic dialectic.

The more analyses of the ending I read, the more I become convinced that the ending was thrown together with little thought for its greater significance in regard to the themes of the series as a whole. Otherwise I find myself at a loss as for how to explain how thoroughly they have bungled their own mythos.

[Uratxekatlitza]

Great post OP! I look forward to your future analyses.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

I can't wait to read your other thematic discussions on the game and I hope you find the time you need to go over all of them.

Do you think there might be enough importance to dedicate a section to starchild's absolutism? The entire series was about self-determination and then the Catalyst only deals in absolutes (omg it's a Sith!)

Modifié par Mighty_BOB_cnc, 25 mars 2012 - 06:51 .

[Toalhinha]

Amazing post, OP!
That's how I felt in the end. Legion was one of my favorite characters and I tried so hard to bring peace to the Quarian/Geth conflict, and that's exactly why: The social, ethical and philosophical inquiries involved in everything about their existence..
I thought the writer's had actually nailed the A.I./Synthetic life dilemma, and instead they threw it all out the window with that horrendous Godkid logic.

[GigaTheToast]

You are so much smarter then me it's not even funny. At least I understood your ideas and vocabulary but there's no way I could articulate them as perfectly.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Timberley wrote,

The further theme of individuality was explored when Legion voluntarily gave up 'his' life so that the other Geth would experience the concept of each unit being (for want of a better word) a person. To give it a bit of a religious slant, in this case Legion was the prophet leading his flock towards a new country (that of individual expression), through the Red Sea of prejudice and mistrust that had built up on both sides throughout the centuries

.

There are definitely a lot of symbolic parralels. Legion's goal before he dies is to bring the flame of Enlightenment and individual identity, something which is stolen or forbidden knowledge, to his fellows... in this we see both Prometheus and Lucifer. He sacrifices his life own life and identity to this end, which brings on a Messianic allusion. And, as you said, he is delivering his people out of a dark period in history and you rightly surmise that the comparison of a prophet can be drawn.

Symbolism is fun!

GigaTheToast wrote,

You are so much smarter then me it's not even funny. At least I understood your ideas and vocabulary but there's no way I could articulate them as perfectly.

It's not a contest! The fact that you can understand the ideas I'm trying to discuss belies that you are quite intelligent. Sometimes communicating ideas effectively can be quite a challenge, and I would say it is more of a quality born out of practice than intellect. Even so, it is a great compliment you pay to let me know that I have done my job well!

Thanks a lot for taking the time to read this, everyone. If you found it interesting and enjoyable then it was time well spent on my part. I will work on the next part, hopefully I will get the time to finish it early next week.

[Baronesa]

OP? Will you post part 2 as an update to your first post, or create a different thread?

I would rather we keep this thread alive, personally, but I'll follow the discussion anyway

EDIT:  COuld also use your second and third post if you ran out of space...  thankfully you have those "reserved" 

Modifié par Baronesa, 24 mars 2012 - 11:00 .

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Baronesa wrote...

OP? Will you post part 2 as an update to your first post, or create a different thread?

I would rather we keep this thread alive, personally, but I'll follow the discussion anyway

EDIT:  COuld also use your second and third post if you ran out of space...  thankfully you have those "reserved" 

I will probably use the two posts I took up already and keep it in this thread for as long as I can. I really have no idea how long it will end up being in the end, but I could see it fitting in here.

[CronoDragoon]

Great post. Legion's final act, which was upgrading the geth with Reaper technology so that they can become individuals, and therefore capable of making their own decisions, is completely ignored once the Catalyst boils the geth back down to "synthetic." It completely destroys the nuance of the geth situation that we had just spent 3? 4? hours both learning about and resolving.

[Amialis666]

I am tearing up after reading this...
Not only do you talk about gnosticism, of which I am a fan. (For a while I actually believed the premise was true. And still maintain it is a valid possibility.)

You also talk about my issues with the ending in ways i could never express.

It is clear that Bioware lacked insight into what the theme behind their games was really about.

Sure the Prometheus Complex theme has always been there but it seemed to be like a secondary theme...

The main one being the already stated  'Self-determination' .

I also felt as though the paragon theme of 'If we stand united, no matter the parts that make up our whole, we can make a change.' and the Renegades 'Victory/Survival/Change at all costs.' were more important. (I always held that paragon and renegade were more than just the simple Good/Bad. As I don't believe there is such a thing as objective morality to define what is good and what is bad/)

The catalyst throws both the self-determination and the paragons theme out the window, and what is left is a message of intolerance and justifications for genocide based on falisies and circular logic.

Edit: Really my issue with the endings is not that that shepard died or the mass relays were destroyed,  lack of closure, or even that bioware lied to us about the wide variety of endings, I can live with those issues... it has and always will be about the dissonance that occurs within those 5 minutes and the rest of the series.

Modifié par Amialis666, 25 mars 2012 - 01:44 .

[Amialis666]

Never read the ModernPrometheus, as what I had envisioned it would be about didn't appeal to me... but now that I know it has a gnostic theme behind it, I maybe very well have to.

Also bump.

[RStillwell]

Thanks for the post.  I found myself very confused after finishing the game and came to these forums to hopefully get a better understanding of what happened.  Most of what I read was simply people being unhappy about the ending, but nothing that was said really resonated with me.  This is the first post I read that really articulates why I was unsatisfied with the ending. 

It wasn't the ending cutscenes or invariance of the endings that really bothered me, but the fact that everything that happens after anderson dies is so disconnected from the rest of the story. 

Looking forward to reading more.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

Amialis666 wrote...

Edit: Really my issue with the endings is not that that shepard died or the mass relays were destroyed,  lack of closure, or even that bioware lied to us about the wide variety of endings, I can live with those issues... it has and always will be about the dissonance that occurs within those 5 minutes and the rest of the series.

Honestly at this point now I don't even know what my main issue even IS anymore.  There are SO MANY sudden shifts in theme, narrative, and gameplay mechanics at the end, on top of a clumsy delivery and no explanations of any sort that it's hard to pick one out and pinpoint it as my main gripe.  It really and truly is as if a completely different studio and different team made the ending to some other game and somehow it ended up in Mass Effect.

RStillwell wrote...

Thanks for the post.  I found myself very confused after finishing the game and came to these forums to hopefully get a better understanding of what happened.  Most of what I read was simply people being unhappy about the ending, but nothing that was said really resonated with me.  This is the first post I read that really articulates why I was unsatisfied with the ending.

It wasn't the ending cutscenes or invariance of the endings that really bothered me, but the fact that everything that happens after anderson dies is so disconnected from the rest of the story.

Looking forward to reading more.

You might also be interested in checking these out as well.  I have found that they are all very well articulated, even though most are HUGE (and altogether represent probably an hour or two of reading).

Why you enjoy art and the one problem with Mass Effect 3
Musings of a Screenwriter: The Ending Thread
My thoughts on the ending as a writing/literature teacher and retail veteran....
A credentialed literature major, and his take on the ending.
An interesting post from the Penny Arcade forums.
"maintain[ing] the ... artistic integrity of the original story" =...
My open letter to ME3 writers
Colour-coding morality: the inherent problems of 'choice' in Mass Effect

And of course then there are all of those Forbes.com articles.

[spirosz]

I love this part "The Geth, who were once an intriguing race of synthetic Gnostic monks, have been demoted to boogeymen."

[Amialis666]

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

Amialis666 wrote...

Edit: Really my issue with the endings is not that that shepard died or the mass relays were destroyed,  lack of closure, or even that bioware lied to us about the wide variety of endings, I can live with those issues... it has and always will be about the dissonance that occurs within those 5 minutes and the rest of the series.

Honestly at this point now I don't even know what my main issue even IS anymore.  There are SO MANY sudden shifts in theme, narrative, and gameplay mechanics at the end, on top of a clumsy delivery and no explanations of any sort that it's hard to pick one out and pinpoint it as my main gripe.  It really and truly is as if a completely different studio and different team made the ending to some other game and somehow it ended up in Mass Effect.

Well it is my main issue, because consistity of main themes is one of basics of story telling. Knowing what message the viewer can take away from your story, and keep on rolling with it. The moral of the story, if you will.
Up until the last 5 minutes, we got the idea, that if we band together, or are willing to make sacrifices we will win.

But thats not what Bioware, who up until now was the master of story telling, decided we should take away. Instead it was, intolerance will always cause conflicts between the creator and the created. The only solution is the genocide of one of the groups.

That is why I am angry with bioware at the moment. The very aspect I used to love them for, is the very aspect they are now lacking. As much as I want to blame EA, I can't put full responsibility on their shoulders...

[RollaWarden]

I hope everyone on the ME BSN site here reads your OP, GodChild. While it's impossible to know the whether the ME development team were attempting, in fact, to echo Frankenstein complex motifs, the groundbreaking critical theories of Derrida and Foccault teach us that the artist, whether or not he/she is aware of the strands running through his/her art, are inevitably influenced by the traditions, the archetypes, the themes, and the tropes of those who have created art before the artist created his/her art. The artist who says "Well, the reader/audience may see these things in my art, but I never intended them" is an artist who fundamentally misunderstands the nature of art, and of artistic influence. The strands of the Frankenstein complex are indeed a hallmark of the ME series, and GodChild has explicated them perfectly. Bravo. Bravo.

And this is why the ending is so tragically poor.  It violates the themes which were so meticulously and often brilliantly explored through all but the last 10 minutes of the trilogy.

Modifié par RollaWarden, 25 mars 2012 - 03:14 .

[joshko]

Very interesting. Although to me the over story of Mass Effect has never had anything to do with synthetics vs organics. The Reapers just happened to be synthetic, but if they were organics would it be any different? Plus, the neither the Council nor humanity created the Reapers, they just showed up out of the blue(or black as it were).
To me it seemed more a tale of unity and perseverance rather than the Frankenstein Complex.