1807 réponses à ce sujet

[eschilde]

Mavkiel wrote...

Cons:
Morrigan gets the kid. Trusting her is a wee bit like playing Russian roulette. However, even assuming she intends to pull a flemeth and possess the child, she has to wait until the child comes to his/her full potential (It makes possession easier, even according to Morrigan). This gives you years to track her down and get the child back. If one informs the grey wardens of the kid and has the ear of the king, your resources are fairly large.

I think you'd be underestimating Morrigan if you think she'd be easy to find, considering her personal history and the fact that Flemeth's her mother. Well, less that she'd be easy to find, more that anyone who found her wouldn't come back to tell the tale.

The arguments for the dark ritual not being selfish are pretty weak, in my opinion. There's a lot of posts saying, 'But what if it turns out to be the savior!' or some such. That's a huge risk with very little to back it up. You don't _know_ that demonbaby will end up causing something bad, or good, but what you _do_ know is you could completely circumvent the problem by taking option b, which is sacrificing yourself/your companion, and that the whole magic ritual thing should be sending up some red flags, considering what happened to the Circle and Redcliffe.

Modifié par eschilde, 02 décembre 2009 - 09:32 .

[twincast]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The baby in question only coming into being because of the ritual to begin with, so even if you believe something dies, it's a zero-sum calculation at worst.

No, it's coming into being because you or Allistair slept with Morrigan.

Which wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the ritual, thus it's part of the ritual - especially since she seems to know for certain she'll conceive which implies there's magic involved in that Last Night to Remember already.

[mrao]

I find it funny that one of the endings has Morrigan running off with your mundane non-god love child, as long as you sleep with her some point during the game and refuse the ritual.

[Erasculio]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I think it's moronic to just assume you'll be able to control a entity that powerfull.

And it's stupidity to assume it won't try to survive, and thus will try to get rid of the thing that can corrupt it with a touch, ergo the darkspawn. Or do you think Morrigan would have all that trouble only to allow her new source of power to be corrupted and driven mad by darkspawn again?

You won't control the Old God, but you don't control Flemmeth or Morrigan, and it's thanks to those two that the current Blight has been stopped (otherwise the main character would have died with Duncan). Or do you fear anything you cannot control?

Mages can be extreely dangerous, but they are a known variable and safeties are in place (templars).

Ah, yes. Jowan and the abominations running around the Circle of the Magi show how well those "safeties" work.

You know nothing of how dangerous an Old God could be, nothing of Morrigans plans with it. In fact, everything you do know points that it's a bad idea.

So let's kill everything that is different, right?

I'm ashamed of how some people here are really so short-sighed to believe anything different is "evil", and that giving someone a chance at redemption is "selfish". After playing a game like Dragon Age, filled with racism and prejudice and fear-driven ignorance, it's sad to go to the game's forum and find the exact same attitude, made worse by a coating of self-righteousness

[Lotion Soronarr]

Doesn't change the fact that the child is concieved and it's your child.



Do you even bother to listen to what Morrigan sez?

So she made sure she will concieve? So what?

[RunCDFirst]

mrao wrote...

I find it funny that one of the endings has Morrigan running off with your mundane non-god love child, as long as you sleep with her some point during the game and refuse the ritual.

I hope it grows up to be just like her.

Erasculio wrote
So let's kill everything that is different, right?

Sounds about right.

I'm
ashamed of how some people here are really so short-sighed to believe
anything different is "evil", and that giving someone a chance at
redemption is "selfish". After playing a game like Dragon Age, filled
with racism and prejudice and fear-driven ignorance, it's sad to go to
the game's forum and find the exact same attitude, made worse by a
coating of self-righteousness

I'm not sure how this is really related to whether doing the dark ritual is selfish or not...

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 02 décembre 2009 - 09:37 .

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

mrao wrote...

I find it funny that one of the endings has Morrigan running off with your mundane non-god love child, as long as you sleep with her some point during the game and refuse the ritual.

I hope it grows up to be just like her.

Voiced by Claudia Black?

One can only hope!

[marshalleck]

eschilde wrote...

The arguments for the dark ritual not being selfish are pretty weak, in my opinion. There's a lot of posts saying, 'But what if it turns out to be the savior!' or some such. That's a huge risk with very little to back it up. You don't _know_ that demonbaby will end up causing something bad, or good, but what you _do_ know is you could completely circumvent the problem by taking option b, which is sacrificing yourself/your companion, and that the whole magic ritual thing should be sending up some red flags, considering what happened to the Circle and Redcliffe.

It's not an argument that the ritual isn't selfish. It's a counterpoint to the assumption that only 'evil' can come from the rebirth of an Old God. Given what very little is revealed about the whole thing, both hypotheticals are equally valid--i.e. pure speculation.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 décembre 2009 - 09:40 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Erasculio wrote...
And it's stupidity to assume it won't try to survive, and thus will try to get rid of the thing that can corrupt it with a touch, ergo the darkspawn. Or do you think Morrigan would have all that trouble only to allow her new source of power to be corrupted and driven mad by darkspawn again?

You won't control the Old God, but you don't control Flemmeth or Morrigan, and it's thanks to those two that the current Blight has been stopped (otherwise the main character would have died with Duncan). Or do you fear anything you cannot control?

It is the uncorrupted old god that calls to the darkspawn. A FACT clearly stated in The Calling.

And yes, I fear very powerfull, possibly world-endangering things even if I could control them. I fear a nuke.  I fear it even more if the trigger is in the hands of a child or hormon-driven teen. And with Morrigan as parent..Brrr.. a Temper tantrum and we're all gone.

Ah, yes. Jowan and the abominations running around the Circle of the Magi show how well those "safeties" work.

Right of Anullment anyone? Yes it works very well, thank you very much.

I'm ashamed of how some people here are really so short-sighed to believe anything different is "evil", and that giving someone a chance at redemption is "selfish". After playing a game like Dragon Age, filled with racism and prejudice and fear-driven ignorance, it's sad to go to the game's forum and find the exact same attitude, made worse by a coating of self-righteousness

I find it interesting that you are calling me short-singted, when you are so ready to ignore any possible danger.
If you cna't be bothered to look up all the facts and do the math, then you shouldn't be botehred to make a decision that affects so many at all.

[eschilde]

I'm ashamed of how some people here are really so short-sighed to believe anything different is "evil", and that giving someone a chance at redemption is "selfish". After playing a game like Dragon Age, filled with racism and prejudice and fear-driven ignorance, it's sad to go to the game's forum and find the exact same attitude, made worse by a coating of self-righteousness

Okay, I'll bite. But first, just a reminder, this is a game!



I've said a few times, it's not that demonbaby (I'm calling it that because that's what Alistair calls it, and it's funny) is necessarily going to grow up to be evil. It's that:



1) Morrigan is not the picture of a warm and nurturing mother. Demonbaby is probably going to end up with a childhood similar to her own, living an isolated existence, being confused by society, caring most about its personal gain, with little regard to others' wellbeing. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but remember Wynne's story about Wardens and kings being the servants, not the served. With great power comes great responsibility! Somehow, I rather doubt Morrigan will be teaching that lesson.



2) You have no idea what kind of being it's going to be physically. What kind of power is it going to have? What kind of memories is it going to have? Is it going to be the form of a human? Will it be able to transform into a dragon, like Flemeth?



3) You don't know Morrigan's intent. Sure, your life gets saved, but there's a million and one things she could want to do with demonbaby. I'd say that's fair grounds for 'fear-driven ignorance.'

[CarlSpackler]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Philosophiocal bull****.
Everyone knows that raised properly means in general terms. Instilling basic good values. Treating the kid right.

Bah..this whole thing is downright redicolous.

Just like the Loghain and Allistair and several other discussions..some people just refuse to do the math.
It's clear that the ritual is leaning heavily on the dark side in both practical and moral aspects.

Yeah I found Morrigan's offer to be downright loathesome.  Basically she wants to take my child (or another child) and have its soul replaced by the sould of an "old god."  That in itself sounded evil to my character.  (Regardless of what everyone's thoughts regarding souls in RL may be, they appear to be a reality in DA -at least Morrigan believed so.)  Destroying my child in favour of this old god, which ultimatley was never defined accuratley as far as we know by any culture.  Even the best definition of "old god" would be inadequate for me to want the soul of my child to be erased by such a creature.

Assuming for the moment though that the essence of my child would remain, only to be infused with the power of the old god, I still found this to be a dubious option.  I tried all game to show Morrigan a better way than what Flemeth had shown her, tried to make her see that not every motivation need be primarily selfish.  Still regardless of the relationship my pc had formed with her, and even though she revealed small moments of genuine emotion, she ultimatley revealed herself to be selfish and deceitful.  Whatever intentions she had for the child, they were almost certainly evil by my standard.  As a father in RL, there was no way I was going to allow her to retreat into the wilderness with my child instructing it to no doubt some terrible end.  No, too high of a price.  Instead while I pleaded with her not to do this, she left anyways, and my character went and died with honor as he told her he would.  Loved that ending, great emotional payoff. 

All of this a tribute to the storyline here I think, kudos for the Bioware writers here giving the options and the consequences.  (I certainly would have liked or would like in the future some sort of storyline involving Morrigan, maybe making her see things differently.  Anyways, thats just me, loved the character.)

On a side note:  I reloaded to the night and accepted the offer in sort of a metagame approach to see how the game played out.  Although I enjoyed the playable epilogue sequence,  and loved the writing of the ending, I definatley felt like I had contributed some great evil to the world.  So yeah, my  "canon" ending is my sacrifice.  And proud of it

[eschilde]

marshalleck wrote...

It's not an argument that the ritual isn't selfish. It's a counterpoint to the assumption that only 'evil' can come from the rebirth of an Old God. Given what very little is revealed about the whole thing, both hypotheticals are equally valid--i.e. pure speculation.

Well, of course it's speculation, the baby's not born yet :b I don't think that people are saying demonbaby will only be evil, only that it's pretty likely from a meta-gaming perspective? At least, that's my view. I mean, come on, this is totally a setup for something bad to happen because you were irresponsible.

[marshalleck]

eschilde wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It's not an argument that the ritual isn't selfish. It's a counterpoint to the assumption that only 'evil' can come from the rebirth of an Old God. Given what very little is revealed about the whole thing, both hypotheticals are equally valid--i.e. pure speculation.

Well, of course it's speculation, the baby's not born yet :b I don't think that people are saying demonbaby will only be evil, only that it's pretty likely from a meta-gaming perspective? At least, that's my view. I mean, come on, this is totally a setup for something bad to happen because you were irresponsible.

Or it could be a setup for an 'unexpected' twist. All the information we have about Old Gods and their relationship/interaction with humans and the world comes from the Chantry, who can hardly be called an unbiased source.

[eschilde]

marshalleck wrote...

eschilde wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It's not an argument that the ritual isn't selfish. It's a counterpoint to the assumption that only 'evil' can come from the rebirth of an Old God. Given what very little is revealed about the whole thing, both hypotheticals are equally valid--i.e. pure speculation.

Well, of course it's speculation, the baby's not born yet :b I don't think that people are saying demonbaby will only be evil, only that it's pretty likely from a meta-gaming perspective? At least, that's my view. I mean, come on, this is totally a setup for something bad to happen because you were irresponsible.

Or it could be a setup for an 'unexpected' twist. All the information we have about Old Gods and their relationship/interaction with humans and the world comes from the Chantry, who can hardly be called an unbiased source.

That's true, and I'll be playing both ways regardless, but even so, this kind of thing spells bad news to me. Call me a pessimist :b

[eschilde]

On the speculation note, though, it's totally possible demonbaby will just end up like Morrigan.. another character who quests with you, with questionable morals and who gives you another choice at the end! Then it's just Bioware screwing with us XD

[twincast]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Do you even bother to listen to what Morrigan sez?

Yes, I bugged every little piece of information she was willing to give out of her, mainly worrying about the child. And a "changed", non-evil kid doesn't sound like something whose existence I should prevent by dying. Plus, at least from a real world point of view I happen to agree with her that it can hardly be called a child yet - at the very least until its cells start to specialize and turn that ball of matter into a little alien.

[RunCDFirst]

eschilde wrote...

On the speculation note, though, it's totally possible demonbaby will just end up like Morrigan.. another character who quests with you, with questionable morals and who gives you another choice at the end! Then it's just Bioware screwing with us XD

Voiced by Claudia Black? :happy:

[LightSabres]

mrao wrote...

I find it funny that one of the endings has Morrigan running off with your mundane non-god love child, as long as you sleep with her some point during the game and refuse the ritual.

Hasn't anyone stopped to consider that the baby Morrigan has (Old god or no) is going to be the PC in the next Dragon Age game??  Baldur's Gate (1 and 2) itself was built on the fact that you are Bhaalspawn and start unlocking your godly powers as you adventure through the game.

As for myself - I still haven't gotten to the ritual yet but when I do I already know I'll say yes.   Why?  I've been romancing her all game and will see this proposition as a last touching moment with her on the eve of a battle that none may survive.  Why not have one last night of passion with my lady love beforehand?

As for Morrigan's motives behind this - despite what everyone around you says about Morrigan (Wynn in particular has some noticeably nasty conversations with Morri if you have them together in your group)  the knowledge of her upbringing has had my PC hunting for the good in her all game.  Naive of him? maybe. Or like many others I believe that her words and actions surrounding the whole romance shows how she has never really known love her whole life and maybe by showing her unrequited love it will change her.

Morrigans always telling me I'm "such a romantic" when I kiss her before and after every fight.   I guess she's right LOL!

[Taleroth]

LightSabres wrote...

Hasn't anyone stopped to consider that the baby Morrigan has (Old god or no) is going to be the PC in the next Dragon Age game?? 

You're the first.

[Curlain]

Erasculio wrote...


I'm ashamed of how some people here are really so short-sighed to believe anything different is "evil", and that giving someone a chance at redemption is "selfish". After playing a game like Dragon Age, filled with racism and prejudice and fear-driven ignorance, it's sad to go to the game's forum and find the exact same attitude, made worse by a coating of self-righteousness

It's not about whether the 'Old Gods' are definitively evil, it's that you have no idea what an Old God was, how can we know this is redeeming them from anything?  One of the messages of the games is that sometimes you have to do what it takes to win and achieve the greater good, kinda what the Grey Wardens are about, anything is justified to stop the Blight, we're not their to redeem anything on the whole just stop the darkspawn.  If we do redeem anything great, but the Grey Wardens wouldn't feel it's worth risking Thedas to a potentially great danger for the hope that something or someone could be redeemed.  The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few in their eyes.

Now in respect to this decision, we know absolutely nothing about the Old Gods, who they are, what they are, what their motives are, what they can do, what they want. 

And Morrigan won't reveal anything about it or the plan Flemeth and her had, just that it's preserving something ancient, well ancient things can be positive or negative, or a bit of both, it could be it's the Messiah, it could be it's the anti-christ, it could be it's some Zog here to fight that Superman baby, or just simpleton child with the mind of dragon.  Truth is though the PC has no idea whatsoever what an Old God is, what it means, and what it could unleash, it could be great, world peace etc and so forth, or it could be pretty horrible.

The fact is the decision is shorted-sighted because you're messing with powers you know nothing about (Morrigan herself could know little about it since she's only going on what her mother told  her, and it's likely she never told Morrigan the full truth about things, she certainly didn't tell her about the body swap thing), and you have no idea about the consequences of your decision.  To believe that it's allowing so being to be redeemed and that it will under Morrigan's care do good is to make allot of assumtions about the nature of 'Old Gods' that we have no basis making, it's pure guesswork and belief without evidence.  And allowing a power you know nothing about into the world, for a purpose you know nothing about (Morrigan won't say) is short-sighted and foolish.  The action, to save your life is understandable but it is short-sighted.

Could the Old Gods be great beings of benevolence?  Sure, but we have no evidence to know this is the case at all, and given their worshippers were the Tinvinter Imperium who seem to have generally been complete jerks on the whole (and it's not just the Chantry that tells us this, the Dalish elves also hold a very low view of the Imperium, and their history is completely independent of Chantry influence) it certainly means that the one insight we do have into the Old Gods at all doesn't paint them (or at least their followers) in the best light

Modifié par Curlain, 02 décembre 2009 - 10:12 .

[RunCDFirst]

LightSabres wrote...

Morrigans always telling me I'm "such a romantic" when I kiss her before and after every fight.   I guess she's right LOL!

She says that to everyone.

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

LightSabres wrote...

Morrigans always telling me I'm "such a romantic" when I kiss her before and after every fight.   I guess she's right LOL!

She says that to everyone.

Yes, but she means it with me.

[RunCDFirst]

Taleroth wrote...

LightSabres wrote...

Hasn't
anyone stopped to consider that the baby Morrigan has (Old god or no)
is going to be the PC in the next Dragon Age game?? 

You're the first.

Taleroth wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

LightSabres wrote...

Morrigans always telling me I'm "such a romantic" when I kiss her before and after every fight.   I guess she's right LOL!

She says that to everyone.

Yes, but she means it with me.

You're on a roll tonight.

[LightSabres]

Taleroth wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

LightSabres wrote...

Morrigans always telling me I'm "such a romantic" when I kiss her before and after every fight.   I guess she's right LOL!

She says that to everyone.

Yes, but she means it with me.

Pfff  Leave me my fantasies please

Now if only my wife sounded like Claudia Black....

[Thor Rand Al]

I've only played a human noble so far but you start out in the game learning a little bit about Grey Wardens. Then you get to become one n you find out there's a price right there if you want to go through with the taint bonding. You either die from drinking the taint, you die by Duncan, or you get to live. Those are your choices, which comes right down to it is not a choice, not fair.

Later you come to find out that you have only about 30 years to live because of this ritual. That you'll die down in the Deep Roads and on top of it all being able to have a family, kids is very very unlikely. So here you are knowing you don't have time to get to grow old, have kids, live a somewhat normal life again not fair.

Then as you're coming to terms with what you do know you find out the only way you can litereally kill the Archdemon is to sacrifice yourself... Talk about fubared... So after learning all of this maybe I don't want to play the part I've been forced into so I take Morrigan's offer, knowing that I will die eventually but in my own time so to speak.  Hey n at least I know that I do have a child after all in the end... So if that makes me selfish then so what... I'm gonna die anyways because of this taint but I'll do it in my way.

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 02 décembre 2009 - 10:26 .