1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Alex Savchovsky]

Erasculio wrote...

I'm ashamed of how some people here are really so short-sighed to believe anything different is "evil", and that giving someone a chance at redemption is "selfish". After playing a game like Dragon Age, filled with racism and prejudice and fear-driven ignorance, it's sad to go to the game's forum and find the exact same attitude, made worse by a coating of self-righteousness

Yea, it's all the same on every topics. But it is good to see that not everyone thinks that way. Respect for that post.

[Gold Dragon]

Vicious wrote...

I was personally quite livid that the Grey Wardens didn't tell me jack sh!t about the sacrifices I'd have to make.

Seriously, if Duncan was up front and told me even AFTER I drank the blood, it would have been better.

But nope, He kept his mouth shut, died. I had to prod Alistair to find out I only have some 30 years to live. And on top of that I',m not told until the ELEVENTH HOUR I have to die to end the Blight.


So hell yeah I made the selfish choice. Seems to me if the Grey Wardens had showed me any courtesy or respect They would have told me what I faced as soon as I became a member, and i could have made peace with my fate Instead they decide to pile it on literally the DAY BEFORE I go to face the Archdemon.

I agree with the sentiment, but....

This convieniently forgets that the Darkspawn attacked within an HOUR of your Joining Ritual.  Had Loghain not betrayed, it is entirely possible that Duncan would have told you everything at the begining.

Modifié par A Golden Dragon, 02 décembre 2009 - 10:29 .

[marshalleck]

Curlain wrote...

The fact is the decision is shorted-sighted because you're messing with powers you know nothing about (Morrigan herself could know little about it since she's only going on what her mother told  her, and it's likely she never told Morrigan the full truth about things, she certainly didn't tell her about the body swap thing), and you have no idea about the consequences of your decision. 

Condemning the soul of the Old God to destruction on the basis that you don't understand it is no more enlightened or short-sighted than taking a chance and liberating it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 décembre 2009 - 10:40 .

[Taleroth]

marshalleck wrote...

Curlain wrote...

The fact is the decision is shorted-sighted because you're messing with powers you know nothing about (Morrigan herself could know little about it since she's only going on what her mother told  her, and it's likely she never told Morrigan the full truth about things, she certainly didn't tell her about the body swap thing), and you have no idea about the consequences of your decision. 

Condemning the soul of the Old God to destruction on the basis that you don't understand it is no more enlightened or short-sighted than taking a chance and liberating it.

*holds his fist out to you*

[Roryn]

I find it rather amusing that all the Chantry supporters are ignoring the four or five (I forgot how many) snippets of Lore that point out that Andreste may have been the most powerful Sorceress in the world when she was alive, and not just a mage a true sorceress, not only would that throw most of the Chant of Light out of the window, but also when it's pointed out that the Chant of Light is changed, elves are left out of it, as are dwarves, we were told both had many verses and chapters on them, now all gone. The next piece is that when you look at the elves "Old Gods" quite a few of them are similar to the little bits of lore you get on the Imperium's God's. So I'm thinking that not only Mr. whiner "The Maker" somehow out powered and tricked the Old God's, but he also imprisoned them just as the Arl's of Denerium hold political prisoners in their dungeon, for his own gain, you mix that with the suppression of spell casters and suddenly you have no opposition.



As for Morrigan's choice, My first play through (should it ever get posted), my city elf was too world weary to take the option, tho he was in love with both Li and Morri, he took the final blow, thus being selfish and obliterating his soul. With my Human Male Noble, he'll stick around, he has a duty to his countrymen.

[Curlain]

Who's condemning anything, the PC know nothing about the Old God, if this ritual will even save it and not it's power, we only know that Morrigan says it will preseve it's ancient power. What power is this, for what purpose is it being saved? I never claimed that not saving it was an enlightened decision (but then saving it probably isn't because you have no idea what you are saving) but it is the wisest course of action. You're releasing a power you know nothing about, for a purpose you know nothing about, which has motives you know nothing about, and will go on to do who knows what.

This is the sum of the PC's knowledge, he/she is releasing a power into the world that could do anything, for a world that would already be recovering from the Blight (provided your PC suceeded in stopping the Archdemon) what it needs is as much stability as possible. Freeing an anicent power could be great, could be disastrous, but without knowing a thing or having any concrete knowledge your exchanging certainty of ending the Blight and knowing that it's over and no negative consequences will be coming from the end of this particular Blight (not taking into acount any other decsions the PC makes) for unknown effects due to a ancient power being released,

Like the theme of a ton of sci-fi and fantasy stories, it never a good idea to mess with things you don't know anything about until you actually learn something about them first, otherwise you can be setting yourself up for all sorts of trouble.

And risking Ferelden or even Thedas on the chance that mabye you might redeem something (which you know nothing about) is short-sighted and unwise

Modifié par Curlain, 02 décembre 2009 - 10:52 .

[marshalleck]

Stability is stagnation. Nature and life are chaotic and unpredictable.

[Taleroth]

Curlain wrote...

Like the theme of a ton of sci-fi and fantasy stories, it never a good idea to mess with things you don't know anything about until you actually learn something about them first, otherwise you can be setting yourself up for all sorts of trouble.

By the same token, a constantly repeating theme in speculative fiction is the one of taking chances.  And how to expect to learn anything if you're not willing to do something different and try it?

And risking Ferelden or even Thedas on the chance that mabye you might redeem something (which you know nothing about) is short-sighted and unwise

It's hardly short-sighted.  Short-sighted means "viewing only the immediate consequence."  The possibility of redemption is a long-term consideration.  Maybe it's narrow-sighted, maybe it's unwise.  Maybe it'd have broad negative consequence.  But, it is still looking further than "kill it now, wait for next one."

Modifié par Taleroth, 02 décembre 2009 - 11:05 .

[Curlain]

Trying something different when you have a reasonable expection of success in your endevour based of some concrete facts or evidence is fine. Shooting in the dark on something which could risk allot of people's lives (pontentially) is just dangerous, particularly as here where you have no knowledge at all what you are dealing with. Establishing what the Old Gods were first, gaining some insight into them, or getting out of Morrigan a clearer statement of what this ancient power was, could lead you to decide the risk was acceptable and worth it sure. Deciding to release some ancient power you know nothing about, for purposes unknown and hoping for the best is a complete gamble on everyone's lives, one where you don't even know the odds.

And acknowledging a possible redemption where you know for certain that the aim is even to redeem something (who don't know that is the aim of the ritual, only to preserve an ancient power), could be fine, but not where our knowledge is 0. To release something that could be potentially very dangerous, that we know nothing about, because we hope there might be a possibly that he/she/it/the energy/the power/the spirit etc could be redeemed is foolish. It risks allot of people's lives on the chance that anything like this will happen.

If it happens at all, is anything going to be redeemed? How will we know, since we don't know what it is in the first place, mabye it doesn't need redeeming. What form will said redemption take for this power, again we don't know, since we know nothing about it. Will this be good for us, Felerden, Thedas, who knows, we know nothing, and are taking a huge gamble on pure assumptions that have no basis in any evidence and Morrigan isn't giving us anything to go on either

Modifié par Curlain, 02 décembre 2009 - 11:12 .

[Iam2ugly]

Some say that giving birth to such a possibly "evil" child/god/demon is a bad thing. Yeah, maybe it is, but did any of you try to think about it in this way?



You meet a fine lady, you love each other, you want to have a baby, so "let's get it on" ;P now did any of you think about how evil your kid can be? what damage can it do to the world?

You think that, parents of (lets say) war crimminals was thinking about it? Maybe, but did it stoped them from having a baby?



It is impossible to know, what impact your child can have on the world. But you do give birth to it anyway. Who knows? maybe this child can do something good?



Anyway. I role play the game. And the romance with Morrigan. And I believed her. I believed in her. And in her plan to preserve the old god. Becouse i love her. And thus in the end, I decided to look for her. Not to share another hug or kiss with her, but to see her, my child. To know that my faith is rewarded. And if not, to reap what I saw. Even if it would bring death to me. Maybe it was selfish in what i did. Probably it was. But i could not refuse a child, that can have a power to stop the upcomming blights. I belive that Morrigan loved me too(end game text says it) and that she will do much good in the end... Or maybe i am naive?



About selfish. We are all selfish. The question is, how much you know yourself to say that.

[marshalleck]

Curlain wrote...

Trying something different when you have a reasonable expection of success in your endevour based of some concrete facts or evidence is fine. Shooting in the dark on something which could risk allot of people's lives (pontentially) is just dangerous, particularly as here where you have no knowledge at all what you are dealing with. Establishing what the Old Gods were first, gaining some insight into them, or getting out of Morrigan a clearer statement of what this ancient power was, could lead you to decide the risk was acceptable and worth it sure. Deciding to release some ancient power you know nothing about, for purposes unknown and hoping for the best is a complete gamble on everyone's lives, one where you don't even know the odds.

And acknowledging a possible redemption where you know for certain that the aim is even to redeem something (who don't know that is the aim of the ritual, only to preserve an ancient power), could be fine, but not where our knowledge is 0. To release something that could be potentially very dangerous, that we know nothing about, because we hope there might be a possibly that he/she/it/the energy/the power/the spirit etc could be redeemed is foolish. It risks allot of people's lives on the chance that anything like this will happen.

If it happens at all, is anything going to be redeemed? How will we know, since we don't know what it is in the first place, mabye it doesn't need redeeming. What form will said redemption take for this power, again we don't know, since we know nothing about it. Will this be good for us, Felerden, Thedas, who knows, we know nothing, and are taking a huge gamble on pure assumptions that have no basis in any evidence and Morrigan isn't giving us anything to go on either

Of course it comes down to how much one trusts Morrigan. Certainly if you did not romance her, her offer comes across as highly suspicious and self-serving. Having a romance with her, and as such having a similar or at least sympathetic world view in common with Morrigan can lead the PC to believe her when she says some things are worth preserving. Her loyalties may not be with contemporary Ferelden society, true--remember, this is a country that would split her head in two with a greatsword or cart her off to the tower for stilling, simply because she is a mage who lives free of the domination of the Chantry's Templars. Why should she feel particularly responsible to a world which would gleefully see her torn limb from limb? Her opposition to the Chantry and unconventional morality does NOT mean she's in league with the Darkspawn and would see the world burn. Even if the whole entire plan comes from Flemeth and is not at all cooked up by Morrigan herself, both of them have vested interests in ending the Blight because it would destroy them just as surely as the rest of Ferelden.

Now, meta-game argument:

I don't doubt that whatever she's up to is going to have a great impact on the world. But I don't believe she's out to destroy everything. We should remember that the developers have said more than any other character, Morrigan represents the world of Dragon Age. It's a world of darkness and conflict, but there is heroism, hope, redemption as well. There's also the distinction between Flemeth and Morrigan...Morrigan is a reflection of what Flemeth once was, perhaps could have been. This combined with Morrigan symbolizing nature and the struggle for survival, the will to power, just leads me to being unable to accept that Morrigan is some over-arching villain that exists to punish the player for straying from the "moral" path.

Also, about not being able to pry information from Morrigan. I think that's more to do with Bioware needing a hook for the sequel than it is a sign that Morrigan is up to something incredibly sinister. The writers just don't want to play their hand to early. Whether it could have been handled more gracefully is certainly a legitimate question, but it's beyond the scope of this particular thread.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 décembre 2009 - 01:29 .

[RunCDFirst]

Roryn wrote...

I find it rather amusing that all the Chantry supporters are ignoring the four or five (I forgot how many) snippets of Lore that point out that Andreste may have been the most powerful Sorceress in the world when she was alive, and not just a mage a true sorceress, not only would that throw most of the Chant of Light out of the window, but also when it's pointed out that the Chant of Light is changed, elves are left out of it, as are dwarves, we were told both had many verses and chapters on them, now all gone. The next piece is that when you look at the elves "Old Gods" quite a few of them are similar to the little bits of lore you get on the Imperium's God's. So I'm thinking that not only Mr. whiner "The Maker" somehow out powered and tricked the Old God's, but he also imprisoned them just as the Arl's of Denerium hold political prisoners in their dungeon, for his own gain, you mix that with the suppression of spell casters and suddenly you have no opposition.

I think I missed something. How is a sorceress different from a mage?

[Vicious]

I agree with the sentiment, but....

This convieniently forgets that the Darkspawn attacked within an HOUR of your Joining Ritual.  Had Loghain not betrayed, it is entirely possible that Duncan would have told you everything at the begining.

I'm sorry, but how long does it take Riordan to explain? All it takes is one or two sentences. Immediately after the ritual "Congradulations on surviving. Now I'll tell you why Grey Wardens are special. Only we can defeat the Archdemons, blahblah taint transfers blahblah souls destroyed. I will take the blow if the Archdemon comes, as my time is almost up. Now to battle! Maker favor us all!
Sorry its a crappy plot contrivance that Duncan tells you nothing. But since he didn't, I had my character react normally.

[RunCDFirst]

Vicious wrote...

I'm sorry, but how long does it take Riordan to explain? All it takes is one or two sentences. Immediately after the ritual "Congradulations on surviving. Now I'll tell you why Grey Wardens are special. Only we can defeat the Archdemons, blahblah taint transfers blahblah souls destroyed. I will take the blow if the Archdemon comes, as my time is almost up. Now to battle! Maker favor us all!
Sorry its a crappy plot contrivance that Duncan tells you nothing. But since he didn't, I had my character react normally.

Well Riordan didn't tell you until you got to Redcliffe. Maybe you have to be cleared by the Grand Poombah or something before sharing that secret.

[Herr Uhl]

RunCDFirst wrote...

I think I missed something. How is a sorceress different from a mage?

Natural vs taught is what I think that he means. Compare Flemeth and Irving.

[Gold Dragon]

Vicious wrote...

I agree with the sentiment, but....

This convieniently forgets that the Darkspawn attacked within an HOUR of your Joining Ritual.  Had Loghain not betrayed, it is entirely possible that Duncan would have told you everything at the begining.

I'm sorry, but how long does it take Riordan to explain? All it takes is one or two sentences. Immediately after the ritual "Congradulations on surviving. Now I'll tell you why Grey Wardens are special. Only we can defeat the Archdemons, blahblah taint transfers blahblah souls destroyed. I will take the blow if the Archdemon comes, as my time is almost up. Now to battle! Maker favor us all!
Sorry its a crappy plot contrivance that Duncan tells you nothing. But since he didn't, I had my character react normally.

Possible.  However, You have been given the option to pester everyone with questions, that could have easily turned it into a 30-min discussion.  And the King DID sort of order Ducan to join him.....

I think Duncan meant to tell Alistair and the PC after the Battle.  And that didn't turn out very well.

[Curlain]

marshalleck wrote...


Of course it comes down to how much one trusts Morrigan. Certainly if you did not romance her, her offer comes across as highly suspicious and self-serving. Having a romance with her, and as such having a similar or at least sympathetic world view in common with Morrigan can lead the PC to believe her when she says some things are worth preserving. Her loyalties may not be with contemporary Ferelden society, true--remember, this is a country that would split her head in two with a greatsword or cart her off to the tower for stilling, simply because she is a mage who lives free of the domination of the Chantry's Templars. Why should she feel particularly responsible to a world which would gleefully see her torn limb from limb? Her opposition to the Chantry and unconventional morality does NOT mean she's in league with the Darkspawn and would see the world burn. Even if the whole entire plan comes from Flemeth and is not at all cooked up by Morrigan herself, both of them have vested interests in ending the Blight because it would destroy them just as surely as the rest of Ferelden.

Now, meta-game argument:

I don't doubt that whatever she's up to is going to have a great impact on the world. But I don't believe she's out to destroy everything. We should remember that the developers have said more than any other character, Morrigan represents the world of Dragon Age. It's a world of darkness and conflict, but there is heroism, hope, redemption as well. There's also the distinction between Flemeth and Morrigan...Morrigan is a reflection of what Flemeth once was, perhaps could have been. This combined with Morrigan symbolizing nature and the struggle for survival, the will to power, just leads me to being unable to accept that Morrigan is some over-arching villain that exists to punish the player for straying from the "moral" path.

Also, about not being able to pry information from Morrigan. I think that's more to do with Bioware needing a hook for the sequel than it is a sign that Morrigan is up to something incredibly sinister. The writers just don't want to play their hand to early. Whether it could have been handled more gracefully is certainly a legitimate question, but it's beyond the scope of this particular thread.

Well this is a somewhat different point, I was debating whether the action itself is short-sighted or unwise in and of itself (as a decision) vs the idea that it could redeem something (namely said 'Old God') and am basically saying that the decision is unwise due to the PC's total lack of knowledge on Old God's nature, motives, purpose and the PC's ignorance on Morrigan and Flemeth's plan for said power (if it even involved any redemntion since she just says the ritual is to preserve an ancient power and refuses to elaborate any further, which unfortunely doesn't tell our PC anything else to base such a big decision on).

However, if your PC due to a romance with Morrigan as a male or a strong friendship with Morrigan as a female chooses based on their relationship and how they trust Morrigan to trust that she does know these variables the PC doesn't and that she can be trusted with said entity (whatever it is) and you believe she can be trusted in whatever purposes she or Flemeth had, well that's a role-play choice (is is certainly something some of my PC's will do).  Doesn't mean I don't think it's an unwise decision looked at objectively though, which was where I was arguing from, but what you decide here depends on your PC and how you have role-played them and their relationship with Morrigan

Modifié par Curlain, 03 décembre 2009 - 01:49 .

[marshalleck]

I guess. I see it more as a matter of perspective. One says: "you put everyone at risk, what about us?"

In response, I say: "What about you? You'd have me murdered or stilled the second you thought you could get away with it. You who could not rouse yourselves from your petty squabbles in the face of a Blight, you who seek nothing more of life than a full belly and a warm bed at night and the security of someone else's blade to keep you safe, you from whom no great things are possible, I owe no explanations, especially not after saving you all from a Blight."

Selfish perhaps, but what are they going to do about it? Bicker some more over who gets to be king of the slag heap while Morrigan and I ressurect an Old God to show them what real power is?

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 décembre 2009 - 03:10 .

[Deflagratio]

On this choice, I actually thought about it. (That happens a lot in Bioware games huh?)

Destroying the Archdemon right then and there, sacrificing Yourself, Alistair or the Third recruitable Grey Warden (I know spoilers are allowed, but I'd rather have someone else get yelled at for ruining that if someone hasn't explored the optio yet) is the most direct, and at face value, selfless.

The Dark Ritual saves the essence of an Old God into a new Child, Is this born as a tained god like the Archdemon, or is it perhaps more along the lines of the great Magister Lords of the Tevinter Imperium. This is a question I wish had some answers in the epilogue, but alas... that wasn't the case. So speculation time. An Archdemon alone, is surprisingly weak, and I don't think the game ever tries to deny that. It's not the Archdemon that's the "Threat" it's the Archdemon's ability to rally the countless horde. There were the Nevvaran Dragon Hunters who killed off practically all the Dragons, and the Old Gods were not much more than High Dragons, and I'm sure the player is well versed in Dragon Slaying by the end of the game. So really, the threat level of this sealed old God is rather low. And if it is indeed a pure Old God, and not Tained, something of such power does deserve preservation. It's not nescessarily evil, though under Morrigans guidance, that's likely to change. (Though I always assumed Morrigan wished to perform Flemeth's ritual to absorb or meld with the Old God herself, I guess she wants to learn the hard way that a sword in her dome is still a lethal encounter). So with all that knowledgable assumption of Worst Case, there comes to the question, what would you do as a new grey warden with some 25years left? Thanks to the exploration of the Deep Roads, it is finally clear what causes the Darkspawn to grow so quickly, personally I would start a campaign (helped by an Army of Golems, since I would preserve the Anvil) to kill as many brood mothers as possible. Every Brood mother killed is potentially ten thousand darkspawn stopped. It would also be nice to reclaim thaigs for the Dwarves. So really, your Life can be worth more than Your sacrifice, the Dark Ritual can be seen not so much as preserving yourself for yourself, but preserving your ability to combat the Darkspawn.


And also, you get to do Morrigan, or if You're a woman, cheer on Alistar from the sidelines.

[eschilde]

Deflagratio wrote...

And also, you get to do Morrigan, or if You're a woman, cheer on Alistar from the sidelines.

Heh, since I was in a romance with him, I was kinda mad he looked so pleased with himself in the cut scene and skipped it after the first two seconds :b

I think the Dark Ritual can't really be debated as good/evil since you don't know the repercussions. You can, however, call it irresponsible, which is mostly why I think taking this way is 'wrong'.

[Heldenbrand]

Are the Old Gods evil? Not necessarily, that's the myth spread by the Chantry. They don't become Archdemons until they come in contact with the darkspawn. My question is and likely the question that's going to be resolved in another game or expansion, what happens if the Old God is dug up by someone other than the darkspawn or it doesn't become corrupted? That's likely what will happen with the child. The soul of an uncorrupted Old God.



I believe it'll be up to that child to decide whether to become good or bad. Now, forgive me for saying this, but I smell a set up in the style of Throne of Bhaal. The figurative child of a God, time to relcaim your place. Whether for good or evil or just something a little in between!

[CelestJP]

only a fool sacrifices there lives before the time it takes courge to live none to die
i hate self sacrifice endings, think of all the things your character can accomplish with his or her power and they throw it all away on self sacrifice .. ye right .. no way

[MassEffect762]

All this fuss over nothing that is "confirmed" true or false. All just a bunch of speculation.



It's hard to say what bioware will do with Dragon Age or if they'll even continue it at all.

[RunCDFirst]

MassEffect762 wrote...

All this fuss over nothing that is "confirmed" true or false. All just a bunch of speculation.

It's hard to say what bioware will do with Dragon Age or if they'll even continue it at all.

Lost countenance: Ferelden to Orlesian Phrase Book
-Must not offend the potential landlords
Raising Spirits: Offsprings and the Fade
-Terrible two's indeed!
Forest Fall: Truth and Legend in the Search for Arlathan
-Survivors? poppycock!
The Origin of Theses: Knowing more than Everyone without Looking Like a Jackass
-Never get the time to read this. Maybe there's a stage play?