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[MassEffect762]

RunCDFirst wrote...

MassEffect762 wrote...

All this fuss over nothing that is "confirmed" true or false. All just a bunch of speculation.

It's hard to say what bioware will do with Dragon Age or if they'll even continue it at all.

Lost countenance: Ferelden to Orlesian Phrase Book
-Must not offend the potential landlords
Raising Spirits: Offsprings and the Fade
-Terrible two's indeed!
Forest Fall: Truth and Legend in the Search for Arlathan
-Survivors? poppycock!
The Origin of Theses: Knowing more than Everyone without Looking Like a Jackass
-Never get the time to read this. Maybe there's a stage play?

Wow, you're a character, good for you.

[Critterlives]

jacket13 wrote...

haha, yeah a "cheap" option would be the proper discription for it.

you cheat your way outoff your destiney.

A chance to save an old god to give it a chance at rebirth and salvation and your somehow cheating destiney?

[tigrina]

To throw in another thought I had last night while thinking about it. Just imagine this:

You are a woman and have a romance with Alistair, joined him in his tent (or at the campfire it seems) and with that have a chance (a very *very* small one, but not necessarily zero) of being pregnant (your being grey warden is really fresh for one thing).



Now you get to the stage you talk with Riordan and he tells you about the sacrifice a warden part of slaying archdemons. Well, ok, you guessed as much. No fun at all but well someone has to do it.



Next you get a talk with Morrigan about the archdemons soul homing in on a tainted baby.

*blink*

It means that in theory you could become pregnant of an archdemon, no? With yourself being tainted and all that and no ritual for you. There is only 3 wardens to try out to do the killing blow.

Now what is a wise choice?

[marshalleck]

I don't know if that could work. I think there was more to the ritual than just becoming pregnant. She uses magic to lure the spirit of the Old God into her womb. I guess if your female Mage PC could make sense of Flemeth's grimoire... but aren't there other problems? Morrigan doesn't have the taint, just the embryo does. The female PC would be tainted, and perhaps destroyed despite being pregnant?

We'll probably never know, clearly the writers didn't want it to play out like that :/

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:49 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
That is a false dilemma.  An Old God's soul in a human body is not nearly as troublesome as an Old God buried somewhere in the ground.  The darkspawn are the only ones likely to find the latter.  The former rests somewhere within human society.  You don't kill women just because they have a chance of becoming Broodmothers, so why would you kill the child?

Besides, that all depends on the supposition that the Archdemons really are Old Gods who have been tainted.  It may not even be the case.

Actaully no. The books clearly state that the darkspawn are drawn to the old gods. If it just switched the body, does it matter? The essence of hte old god is stil ltehre and it is what's calling for the darkspawn.

Even if you disregard that, you basicly killing your own child. Remeber - the essence/soul of hte old gods replaces it. TIs like Flemeths possesion of her daughters or abominations. The original person is gone.
Your'e basicly killing your own child (it's soul) with the ritual. It's not called a dark ritual for nothing.

It is clearly stated in-game that the reason that the "Old Gods" are dangerous is because the darkspawn can find them somehow, and the other races cannot.  Growing up in a human society of some kind, the Old God is not gonna be randomly found by darkspawn.

[tmp7704]

tigrina wrote...

It means that in theory you could become pregnant of an archdemon, no?

I suspect that's unlikely since #1 apparently there's blood magic involved in the process #2 the conception has to happen very shortly before the archdemon dies, to allow the old god inhabit the body without the "soul collision" killing both entities when the takeover happens.

[tigrina]

marshalleck wrote...

I don't know if that could work. I think there was more to the ritual than just becoming pregnant. She uses magic to lure the spirit of the Old God into her womb. I guess if your female Mage PC could make sense of Flemeth's grimoire... but aren't there other problems? Morrigan doesn't have the taint, just the embryo does. The female PC would be tainted, and perhaps destroyed despite being pregnant?

We'll probably never know, clearly the writers didn't want it to play out like that :/

The fact that you really don't know whether it is a possibility or not is the scary part in my opinion. Sure, like someone else posted, it is rather unlikely. But if think about your chances of yourself do that killing blow (very likely), and you could be pregnant, are you willing to take the chance to *not* let Morrigan have her ritual baby? Like so many things untold, you just don't know it. Maybe the baby gets destroyed, maybe you get destroyed (and the baby with it), but can you imagine the terror thoughts of the idea of having the tainted soul of an old god in your baby?

You are doing that killing blow, so you're near that soul as much as your unborn child is and I am pretty sure you can't just tell it to choose you.

Like many things in this game, you just don't know anything for sure. It makes it a viable roleplaying option in my opinion though.

[brucemo]

Given the amount of information the player is given about the consequences, it's an evil path.  The choices are: 1) end the blight for good at the cost of one life, 2) unleash something of unknown power and intent, based upon the thin assurances of someone who, frankly, tends toward evil.

I've not refused the ritual, but from what I've heard, if you do, Morrigan leaves the party.  That she'd respond so strongly in a moment of such obvious crisis is an indication right there that she's up to no good.

This is an order of magnitude beyond "I'll give you 20 sovereigns if you release me and let me run rampant".

The only redeeming thing is that she says to Alistair that she's not going to dump some evil thing on Ferelden.  I've got to wonder what she is up to, given this.  If the thing is no threat to Ferelden, why not come clean about her plans?  (Well, obviously, it's a literary device.)

It's not like I'm losing sleep over this, but it does seem like an evil path to me.

[Shiro_the_Gambler]

The assumption that Morrigan is evil is something that needs to be considered from the other angle:

She outright tells the guardian spirit at the entrance to Andraste's tomb to ****** off, and he lets her go in, when his job is to keep out the unworthy.

[FrankE62]

Morrigan was one of the very few characters in the game that never lied to me so my character was predisposed to believe that she was telling the truth about the ritual. My rogue also wasn't a fan of the chantry, I even avoided asking the dwarfs about opening a temple to the maker there. Given how screwed up the power structure is in this world, resurrecting the old god of beauty seemed like a no-brainer to shake things up a bit. Maybe it's a good thing, maybe not, but keeping the status quo didn't really appeal to me.

Did my character have any reservations about it. You betcha! He didn't go after Morrigan at the end because she was the love of his life but rather to try and make sure that he hadn't screwed up badly by allowing the ritual.

As to whether Morrigan will be a good parent, you have to assume that every power hungry wizard and noble within a thousand miles will want to gain control of a child that's likely to be a powerful mage (at a minimum). Assuming that Morrigan was telling the truth, she's better equipped than any of the other characters to keep the child hidden and out of trouble. 
 

Modifié par FrankE62, 03 décembre 2009 - 06:16 .

[frylock23]

I spent a decent amount of time thinking about this one. In fact, I intended to agree to the ritual to save Alistair as I was playing the human noble who was very in love with him and had set it up so that we could both rule the kingdom.

I told Morrigan that I would speak to him, went in and broached the subject with him ... and then, I got the option to say "trust me." I couldn't go through with it. All along, I'd played the angle that I regarded Alistair as "mine" once I started caring about him, and now, I'm about to send him in for a one night stand with another woman ... to get her pregnant?! I don't think so! I also had the thought that after the turmoil of setting a bastard on the throne, it really wouldn't be such a hot idea to have the bastard's bastard running around to possibly come back and cause trouble for our designated heir. So, I backed out weakly by admitting that I couldn't really ask him to go through with it. I figured that if he went through with it without my weadling him into it, then so be it.

Then, you have to factor in the Old God business. When I was deciding between Alistair and Anora for the throne, I really originally had the intention of backing Anora, I'd even told her I would with every intention of doing it. But in the end, after asking both of them all the questions, I picked Alistair because he didn't want the power. Anora was too eager to grab it. With that kind of power, I feel it's safer in the hands of someone who wasn't seeking it to begin with and doesn't want it now that it's offered.

Now, you have Morrigan very definitely wanting the implied power this ritual will bring. She obviously doesn't care about Alistair in any real way, so it's the kid she wants. She's not in the slightest motherly, so it isn't motherhood she's seeking, to make sure her child doesn't grow up as miserable as she did. No, it's the soul of a god she's after, and she won't tell you why. She gives you all the reasons you likely have for going through with it without adding any of her own reasons for why she's making that sacrifice for you ... Suspicious.

So, I left it up to him after bringing it up. He naturally didn't go through with it. I took him up the tower with me, and he sacrificed himself. Poor Aislinn was devastated.

I'm sure I'll go through with it in another playthrough.

It also occurred to me that this is slightly Arthurian.  King Arthur was ultimately brought down by his bastard son fathered on his sister, Morgan le Fay.

Modifié par frylock23, 03 décembre 2009 - 06:20 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

THis is getting redicolous. Teh ritual is based on so many nknowns that only a complete moron would consider it is qa wise decision to make.

Let's recap:

- Darkspawn are drawn to the OldGods. They hear their song in their heads and zero-in on them, corrupting them and starting a blight.
- you know virtually nothing about the Old Gods. Who's side are they on? Maybe they want to be corrupted?
- blighted creatures are more powerfull than their non-blighed counterparts.
- Morrigan wants to have a child with you, so the soul of the Old God can posses it. Bad for hte kid.
- Morrigan sez the old God will be uncorrupted. We got only her word on it.
- Morrigan is not good mother material. Far from it. Just look at how she reacts at al lthe kids you meet trough the game.
- even the game describes the ritual as dark. Even the achievement lists it as a dark ritual.
- Morrigan scampers off once the deed is done. So much for trust.
- the darspawn can very well find and corrupt the OldGod again. They did it before, they'll do it again. The fact that they constantly harass the dwarves makes it unlikely the'll shy away from attacking human villages. Assuming Morrigan even hides there. Unlikely.



So basicly, it all comes down to this. you have no idea who's side the old god is, no idea what he can do, no idea what Morrigan plans to do with it, no idea how dangerous it is and no way to track down Morrigan. If fact, all you have is her word (which if you're hopelesly in love with her might be enough), and you have to sacrifice your child for it to work, while still leaving a very real danger of another blight very much open.

I can see people taking this option for various reasons, but claming this choice is wise is UTTER, UTTER BULLC***!

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

THis is getting redicolous. Teh ritual is based on so many nknowns that only a complete moron would consider it is qa wise decision to make.

Let's recap:

- Darkspawn are drawn to the OldGods. They hear their song in their heads and zero-in on them, corrupting them and starting a blight.
- you know virtually nothing about the Old Gods. Who's side are they on? Maybe they want to be corrupted?
- blighted creatures are more powerfull than their non-blighed counterparts.
- Morrigan wants to have a child with you, so the soul of the Old God can posses it. Bad for hte kid.
- Morrigan sez the old God will be uncorrupted. We got only her word on it.
- Morrigan is not good mother material. Far from it. Just look at how she reacts at al lthe kids you meet trough the game.
- even the game describes the ritual as dark. Even the achievement lists it as a dark ritual.
- Morrigan scampers off once the deed is done. So much for trust.
- the darspawn can very well find and corrupt the OldGod again. They did it before, they'll do it again. The fact that they constantly harass the dwarves makes it unlikely the'll shy away from attacking human villages. Assuming Morrigan even hides there. Unlikely.



So basicly, it all comes down to this. you have no idea who's side the old god is, no idea what he can do, no idea what Morrigan plans to do with it, no idea how dangerous it is and no way to track down Morrigan. If fact, all you have is her word (which if you're hopelesly in love with her might be enough), and you have to sacrifice your child for it to work, while still leaving a very real danger of another blight very much open.

I can see people taking this option for various reasons, but claming this choice is wise is UTTER, UTTER BULLC***!

- Darkspawn are drawn to imprisoned Old Gods--whether that is at the behest of the Old Gods themselves or a byproduct of the Maker imprisoning the Old Gods and casting the original magisters out of the black city is unknown. Indeed, for all we know this is all Chantry lies.
- Blighted creatures...irrelevent?
- Morrigan, Morrigan, Morrigan. Yes, we know you hate and mistrust her with a passion. That doesn't mean she actually IS lying when she says she's not going to unleash anything evil on the world.
- We know that Flemeth and Morrigan had magical techniques to keep the Darkspawn away from them, else Flemeth's hut would have been overrun before your character recovers from the attack in Ishal. It's likely Morrigan possesses knowledge of this warding magic, if not at the beginning of the game, surely after going through both of Flemeth's grimoires. You may not like Morrigan and that's fine, but she's not stupid--she surely has plans to safeguard herself and the child.

Your argument boils down to paranoia and mistrust of Morrigan. That's no more enlightened a position to take than any number of the reasons people have given to go through with the ritual.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 décembre 2009 - 07:55 .

[Taritu]

It all depends on



1) whether you believe Morrigan (and believe she knows the truth herself, it was Flemeth's plan). Despite various folks protestations, she's the least trustworthy of your companions and seriously immoral in many ways. It's not illogical to not trust her.

2) if you believe her, do you believe she should raise a god (I mean, she's a borderline sociopath, not the person I want raising a god)

3) If you want an old god, even untainted, alive (elves might remember what the old Tevinter Empire did to their people).



I almost agreed, but Morrigan's insistence I could never see the kid, ever, made me distrust her too much to do it--smacked too much of "I'm going to be doing bad things with this kid...". My only regret was that I couldn't kill her, at that point. "I should have killed you long ago, but you're protected by the writers, so off you go". Pity I couldn't tell Alistair, as king, to put a 1,000 sovereign bounty on her head, or some such.



If I have a character who trusts Morrigan, I'll probably take the offer. In fact, I plan to next run through.



But hey, I had a splendid funeral.

[AncalagonM]

I picked this ending because I honestly grew fond of my charater and his adventures. As much as I always enjoyed being the hero and doing the right thing, for once I could not come to killing him off, even for the greater good. Yes that makes it a very selfish act and maybe in the end the wrong choice. At the same time for many who did pick this ending it opens up alot of new possiblity to continue the Dragon Age storyline. Plus why people want to argue about it anyway, this game has so much replay value its insane, you didn't like the end, Just don't pick it next time you play through its that simple. I actual want to try all the diffrerent ending and outcomes.



But to get back on topic yes, this is a selfish act, a true hero would be willing to sacrifice everything to do the right thing. Even their very life, that is part of what being a Grey Warden is, they do that the moment they go through the Joining.

[marshalleck]

Taritu wrote...

It all depends on

1) whether you believe Morrigan (and believe she knows the truth herself, it was Flemeth's plan). Despite various folks protestations, she's the least trustworthy of your companions and seriously immoral in many ways. It's not illogical to not trust her.
2) if you believe her, do you believe she should raise a god (I mean, she's a borderline sociopath, not the person I want raising a god)
3) If you want an old god, even untainted, alive (elves might remember what the old Tevinter Empire did to their people).

1) Morrigan is "immoral" in the sense that she highly regards power and the will to survive more than most as necessitated by her upbringing, but she is not amoral. It's hardly a basis for mistrusting her unless you're just paranoid and fearful of that which is unconventional.
2) Morrigan is not her mother. If you actually talk to her, you'll see some clear contrasts between the two characters, which Morrigan tries to hide.
3) An Old God is not the Tevinter Imperium itself. They were worshipped by the Tevinter and other Thedosians. There is even some question if the Old Gods may be connected to the Elven pantheon.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:10 .

[Blank Syndrome]

I would concur that it's the selfish option, yes. I chose it because my character was conscripted into the Grey Wardens and under those circumstances, I would do what I deemed necessary to survive as well as protect those I have a particular fondness for.  As far as I'm concerned, it's Duncan's fault for conscripting someone who would prefer to save the few over the many - if I absolutely must be the one to end the Blight, I'll do it on my terms; if not, defer the task elsewhere, to other, more noble souls.

Of course, I'm not the sort who views a healthy degree of selfishness (particularly self-preservation) as intrinsically immoral, so take that as you will. Take what you can get, Ferelden! I didn't have to save anyone!

Modifié par Blank Syndrome, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:17 .

[Mudzr]

I was originally going to pick it in my first playthrough... then I thought... hang on Flemeth planned this all along, the same Flemeth that is supposed to be this uncontrollable force of scorn and wrath and yet she helps you... it's obvious that whatever she was planning can't have been good, and, even if you did romance her, could you seriously trust Morrigan?

It was the non self sacrifical route so I took it as the implied "evil" option, yet I like that it is gray and ambigious.

[Lotion Soronarr]

marshalleck wrote...

- Darkspawn are drawn to imprisoned Old Gods--whether that is at the behest of the Old Gods themselves or a byproduct of the Maker imprisoning the Old Gods and casting the original magisters out of the black city is unknown. Indeed, for all we know this is all Chantry lies.
- Blighted creatures...irrelevent?
- Morrigan, Morrigan, Morrigan. Yes, we know you hate and mistrust her with a passion. That doesn't mean she actually IS lying when she says she's not going to unleash anything evil on the world.
- We know that Flemeth and Morrigan had magical techniques to keep the Darkspawn away from them, else Flemeth's hut would have been overrun before your character recovers from the attack in Ishal. It's likely Morrigan possesses knowledge of this warding magic, if not at the beginning of the game, surely after going through both of Flemeth's grimoires. You may not like Morrigan and that's fine, but she's not stupid--she surely has plans to safeguard herself and the child.

Your argument boils down to paranoia and mistrust of Morrigan. That's no more enlightened a position to take than any number of the reasons people have given to go through with the ritual.

God. Some peopel can be so blind when tehy want to.

You should read the calling,. It explicitlcy sez that the darskpwan can hear the old gods calling them.

Blighted creatures - not irrelveant. One of hte argument here is the the untainted old god would be a great defense against the blight. If a untainted old god is weaker than a tainted one, then he's not much of a help. That's all assuming he's willing to help you at all.

Morrgan is incredibly evasive when you probe her. She outrigt refuses to give you specifics and doesn't want you ever seeing the child. She would care for hte child? You have no idea what she plans to do with it in the first palce.

Paranoia? No. Common sense. To explicitly trust someone who refuses to elaborate is folly.
There is no common sense in doing somthing wihtout anything to back it up, and everything going agaisnt it.

And yes, Morrigan is rather immoral, lacking empathy.
WORD OF GOD  (Gaider) has it that we'd be horrified to find out the lengths at which she is willing to go to obtain power. Does that sound like a description of a good, moral person?


Face it, the ONLY thing you have is Morrigans word. EVERYTHING else goes downright against her. If you can't see hte obvious risks, then you are blind.
This thread is almsot worst with the one with Loghain apologists....

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:39 .

[FedericoV]

@Lotion:



Even Harrrowmont and the destruction of the Anvil of The Void seems the wise decision to make and I made it. But at the end the result was a weaker and decadent Dwarven Kingdom (I'm talking about the first line of defense against the next blight).



So, you do not know the consequences in any case, if you do the ritual or not. And the real moronic attitude is to kill a creature you do not know anything about (and dying in the process) only because the chantry say it's the right thing to do and that the old gods were evil (before the taint).



What if the blight and the taint of the archdemon is Andraste's work? What if Andraste was a lyrium junk mage? What if the Maker do not exist or at least was just a Pride Deamon speaking to Andraste while she was high on lyrium (or at best a good spirit like the one who saves Wynne)? Do you remember the "something wicked" sidequest? The Rage Deamon said to the templar "There is no maker, there is no golden city, but there are deamons, yes". During your adventure you face a lot of experience that have an impact on your opinion about the chant of light and the maker.



At least you know that even if a maker could exist... no one, even Andraste or Leliana, can speak with him. Visions and Portents are the result of the contact with the Fade induced by lyrium. That's all (Yes, I'm pretty sure that Leliana is crazy).



You can't calculate the consequences even if you sacrifice yourself and kill for good (for good? are we sure? that's only what the Wardens say...) the archdemon since you do not know anything about the origins of the blight. At least if you save yourself you will be there to correct your error and take responsibility of your actions.

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

God. Some peopel can be so blind when tehy want to.

You should read the calling,. It explicitlcy sez that the darskpwan can hear the old gods calling them.

I understand that the darkspawn are drawn to the Old Gods. What I am not clear on is whether or not the Old Gods are willfully calling the Darkspawn to them or what the nature of the relationship is. If this has been explicitly explained as you claim, I find it rather amazing that this information has not filtered into any of the wikis.

Blighted creatures - not irrelveant. One of hte argument here is the the untainted old god would be a great defense against the blight. If a untainted old god is weaker than a tainted one, then he's not much of a help. That's all assuming he's willing to help you at all.

This isn't about whether an Old God can bench press more than an Archdemon. It's a question of what an Old God is capable when it has free will and is no longer imprisoned deep within the earth and corrupted by Darkspawn taint.

Morrgan is incredibly evasive when you probe her. She outrigt refuses to give you specifics and doesn't want you ever seeing the child. She would care for hte child? You have no idea what she plans to do with it in the first palce.

Paranoia? No. Common sense. To explicitly trust someone who refuses to elaborate is folly.
There is no common sense in doing somthing wihtout anything to back it up, and everything going agaisnt it.

This is a bit flimsy since this whole section of the game is clearly written with a big reveal intended for later on in either DLC or a sequel. It's sufficient to say from a RP perspective that Morrigan's outlook could sufficiently mirror the PC's to a degree that he or she would agree to help.

And yes, Morrigan is rather immoral, lacking empathy.

That's neither the definition of "immoral" nor does it describe Morrigan (lacking empathy). You're arguing from ignorance here, I suspect of the willful variety.

WORD OF GOD  (Gaider) has it that we'd be horrified to find out the lengths at which she is willing to go to obtain power. Does that sound like a description of a good, moral person?

I'd love to see you cite this reference so I can read it in context. I'm always interested in more insights into Morrigan's character. I'm also not interested in subjective judgments like "good" or "moral."

Face it, the ONLY thing you have is Morrigans word. EVERYTHING else goes downright against her. If you can't see hte obvious risks, then you are blind.
This thread is almsot worst with the one with Loghain apologists....

Yes, I have Morrigan's word. And the character with whom I interact with Morrigan is sufficiently inclined to trust her over the word of the Chantry/Templars/etc. Also, it's just a game bro. Chill.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 décembre 2009 - 09:01 .

[CoM Solaufein]

I'm too cool to die so I won't be sacrificing myself. If there is another way around it, take it.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

THis is getting redicolous. Teh ritual is based on so many nknowns that only a complete moron would consider it is qa wise decision to make.

Wise? It was never meant to be wise. It is risky and uncertain. Because of this you can't say for sure "it's the right choice to make". Or "it's the wrong choice to make", for that matter.

[Lotion Soronarr]

You can make whatever choice you want when you play. I'm sure yuor character has his reasons.



But calling the ritual a smart/wise move is comleteply, utterly wrong.



From a cost/benefit/risk standpoint, it's not a smart move.

From a moral standpoint, it's not a smart move.

The only standpoitn from which it MIGHT be considered smart is from a self-serving one. But even that is debatable, since it's very possible you unleashed your own doom into the world.

[marshalleck]

How about that Gaider quote? I am genuinely interested in reading it. I'd like to know if he's talking about a future revelation or if it came from a discussion prior to the game's release, in which case he could be refering to the Dark Ritual, which I am obviously already okay with and not really horrified of.