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[Blank Syndrome]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You can make whatever choice you want when you play. I'm sure yuor character has his reasons.

But calling the ritual a smart/wise move is comleteply, utterly wrong.

From a cost/benefit/risk standpoint, it's not a smart move.
From a moral standpoint, it's not a smart move.
The only standpoitn from which it MIGHT be considered smart is from a self-serving one. But even that is debatable, since it's very possible you unleashed your own doom into the world.

It's...possible, but it seems outrageously unlikely that you've doomed yourself with this action before your lifespan is up in 30-something odd years.

[marshalleck]

Well, ignoring the fact that not doing it is even more likely to doom yourself to death upon striking the final blow on the Archdemon.

[Jahannam]

Morrigans little ritual may be fun..but on this char anyway I refused and died the way 4 other wardens before me did.



Nobody is "moronic" for the ending they choose. Do whats right for your toon. For me it was death with the final blow. For my mage it was rebuilding the Grey Wardens and doing the ritual.



Also assuming that Morrigans child a old god would be evil and the doom of all is kinda stretching it...How do you know it would be evil? Maybe it would be for the good of everything and not its downfall.



She has a old god that isnt tainted or corrupt. Maybe thats not a bad thing.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You can make whatever choice you want when you play. I'm sure yuor character has his reasons.

But calling the ritual a smart/wise move is comleteply, utterly wrong.

I already said it is not smart. Nevertheless, I consider it the correct choice.

Oh, about the "unleashing doom over the world"... I fail to see why would Morrigan bother with such an obscure plan to ruin the world. She could just step aside and let the darkspawn do it, right? Much simpler and easier.

[Beren082]

I suspect that the decision being "good" or "bad" depends entirely on Morrigan and your character's interaction with her. Sure, left to her own devices and with only Flemeth's tutelage to gide her, she may not be entirely trust worthy. she would take the child/god and seek whatever dark purpose Flemeth had intended. whether or not this results in a blight is unforeseeable, but Her intentions would surely be suspect.



However, if your character manages to pierce her defenses (a feat I managed both as a man and a woman) and show her that Love and compassion are more then just words to comfort the weak, then it is likely that, though she takes the child far from you and anyone else, she would hold it dear, not only as the last reminder of your character, but as a creature to love and nurture its self. her purpose would ultimately become to protect the child/god from both the evil that seeks it (darkspawn) and the evil of it's own past transgression. she would seek to instill in the child the lessons that the grey warden gave to her.



and that's why I am in love with this game, because there are so many ways to be good, bad, or morally grey. even taking the rout of sacrifice comes with the possibility of selfishness, with the main character making it a contest of pride. even without the "dark ritual" you can still back away and let Alistair (Loghain if you didn't kill him) kill the demon, and let them die for it.

[hammarus]

I don't care if its a good or bad choice. I'm in love with her!
 
I didn't want her to go and I certainly didn't want to die. And as to whether a god/child is good or bad. All answers to that are possibles an maybes.  Everything deserves a second chance, even a god.  

As a side, she (Morrigan) was by far my favorite character in the game.  Followed closely by Alistair (he is funny).

Modifié par hammarus, 03 décembre 2009 - 09:37 .

[FedericoV]

Now that I think of it... Ryordan is smarter than what I first thought.

Now I see why he he insists about Loghain joining the Wardens. Since Loghain he's going to die no matter what, he hopes to save both your ass and Alistair's making him the one who struck the final blow. I ask myself why he has not talked about that matter during the Landsmeet (in private off course)!

Maybe Alistair would have changed his mind and if not... whatever!

But I quote the last poster. Many person who have rushed the game speak superficially about generic fantasy. That thread is the proof that they are wrong. I've read so many interesting points about many delicate topics such as abortion, atheism, morality, etc.

Honestly it's the first time that I see such deep discussion raised by a videogame (the only other game that I can remember with such moral depth are the original Fallout games).

Modifié par FedericoV, 03 décembre 2009 - 09:40 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

FedericoV wrote...

Now that I think of it... Ryordan is smarter than what I first thought.

Now I see why he he insists about Loghain joining the Wardens. Since Loghain he's going to die no matter what, he hopes to save both your ass and Alistair's making him the one who struck the final blow. I ask myself why he has not talked about that matter during the Landsmeet (in private off course)!

When he tells you that the warden to strike down the archdemon dies, he also says something like "sorry, I didn't know that you are not aware of that, otherwise I would have told you earlier".

FedericoV wrote...

But I quote the last poster. Many person who have rushed the game speak superficially about generic fantasy. That thread is the proof that they are wrong. I've read so many interesting points about many delicate topics such as abortion, atheism, morality, etc.

Honestly it's the first time that I see such deep discussion raised by a videogame (the only other game that I can remember with such moral depth are the original Fallout games).

There is something about this game... It is involving, emotionally even. It is believable. Probably has something to do with the nature of the choices you have to make in the game. They do not feel abstract or absolute, but... human.

[Silensfurtim]

when I created this thread, I thought it would just die down in a couple of posts. now its page 13 lol

[Lotion Soronarr]

marshalleck wrote...

How about that Gaider quote? I am genuinely interested in reading it. I'd like to know if he's talking about a future revelation or if it came from a discussion prior to the game's release, in which case he could be refering to the Dark Ritual, which I am obviously already okay with and not really horrified of.

It's was said was back on ye olde forums. Do a search. I can't recall what was the threads name.

hammarus wrote...

I don't care if its a good or bad choice. I'm in love with her!

AT LAST! A sensible, honest person!
Thank you.

See people, he is on the right track.

There is no denying the ritual is the more evil and selfish choice. Even the devs have named it so (DARK ritual).
IT's even a less sensible choice.

But it works for some kinds of characters. Sure, if your characters wants to live, it makes sense. But to claim that choice is made for Ferledens safety? Utter bollocks.

[menasure]

funny how this whole perspective changes when you play a female character and can't complete the dark ritual yourself.

all it is is perspective in a world where only the things you assume are the "certainties". there is no way of telling what this ritual does ... unless you assume the evil which told you the story in the first place can be trusted about that.

[Beren082]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But to claim that choice is made for Ferledens safety? Utter bollocks.

well, Ferelden is only one nation in Thedas. one can argue that saving an old god from the taint (I'm sorry, am I the only one who finds the use of this word funny?) might give the world in general another champion for "good" or at least a champion for the natural world.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Which is again, a HUGE risk to take, with too much that can go wrong, too few real benefits and too many possible negative consequences.



Only fools take such risks when it involves lives of thousands.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Which is again, a HUGE risk to take, with too much that can go wrong, too few real benefits and too many possible negative consequences.

Only fools take such risks when it involves lives of thousands.

Please.  No matter which path you chose through the game, you sacrificed the lives of thousands of people already.  Playing with life is not what Wardens were intended to do, but you get involved in that situation so easily in this game.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There is no denying the ritual is the more evil and selfish choice. Even the devs have named it so (DARK ritual).
IT's even a less sensible choice.

Random killing is a less sensible choice.  Unless you take the Chantry at their word, there is no evidence for any evil, nor any good to come from the ritual.  Between the Chantry and Morrigan, Morrigan is the more trustworthy faction to many people.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There is no denying the ritual is the more evil and selfish choice. Even the devs have named it so (DARK ritual).
IT's even a less sensible choice.

But it works for some kinds of characters. Sure, if your characters wants to live, it makes sense. But to claim that choice is made for Ferledens safety? Utter bollocks.

Accepting the dark ritual could be utterly evil or selfish choice - for the reasons you gave. Or, it could be not. Because there are other possible reasons to accept it, reasons that you do not seem to even consider. However, your unwillingness to consider them does not make your opinion on the matter an universal truth. Especially since you just keep repeating "there is no denying that...". Oh, but there is.

[Beren082]

I agree, it's not black and white. it is not absolutely either a good or evil choice, just like actually sacrificing yourself may not be a purely good or evil choice. first off, you don't know either way. saying that the darkspawn are undoubtedly going to reach the child, or that it will invariably be evil is the same as saying that Alistair will certainly find and destroy the other old gods before they can even pose a threat. it's possible but that possibility is based on how you played the game. basically, the way you approached your relationship with Morrigan dictates whether it is necessarily a wise/moral choice or not.



and above everything else, you cannot say anything for certain until the scenario plays out, one way or the other. they may just release a DLC about this that takes your save game into account in how it all happens. that would be awesome.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Please.  No matter which path you chose through the game, you sacrificed the lives of thousands of people already.  Playing with life is not what Wardens were intended to do, but you get involved in that situation so easily in this game.

I don' recall sacrificing thousands. Even if I have, does that excuse you to sacrifice a thousand more. This is no argument, this is pure crap.

Random killing is a less sensible choice.  Unless you take the Chantry at their word, there is no evidence for any evil, nor any good to come from the ritual.  Between the Chantry and Morrigan, Morrigan is the more trustworthy faction to many people.

What random killing?
And no. Al lthe evidence you can gater trough the game, from all sources, points that it's simply the wrong choice. EVEN IF YOU USE MORRIGAN AS YOUR ONLY SOURCE.

Accepting the dark ritual could be utterly evil or selfish choice - for the reasons you gave. Or, it could be not. Because there are other possible reasons to accept it, reasons that you do not seem to even consider. However, your unwillingness to consider them does not make your opinion on the matter an universal truth. Especially since you just keep repeating "there is no denying that...". Oh, but there is.

Barking up the wrong tree much?
Sure, there are reasons for accepting the ritual, and I am taking them into account. But the fact is, the reasons and the logic behind them are neitehr alturistic nor well thought off.

And I can deny gravity exist. And I cna claim the moon is made of cheese. Simply voicing an opposite oppinion doesn't make it true.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Beren082 wrote...

I agree, it's not black and white. it is not absolutely either a good or evil choice, just like actually sacrificing yourself may not be a purely good or evil choice. first off, you don't know either way. saying that the darkspawn are undoubtedly going to reach the child, or that it will invariably be evil is the same as saying that Alistair will certainly find and destroy the other old gods before they can even pose a threat. it's possible but that possibility is based on how you played the game. basically, the way you approached your relationship with Morrigan dictates whether it is necessarily a wise/moral choice or not.

Wrong. I can say some things for sure.

I don't know if hte darkspawn WILL reach the child, but it is far more probable then Allistair killing all the other old gods. And it's a GIANT RISK that can lead to death of thousands. It's as simple as that.

You kill the Archdemon - no more risk from it. Period.
You do the ritual - risk is still there. Of hte old god beign hostile or another Blight.

The is the simplest, purest logic and fact that cannot be denied.

[Allattar1]

Thats still only your opinion.
AND your not the writer of this game, so there is no need to get a little hysterical over Morrigans offer being right/wrong.

At no point did I ever see anything to suggest that Morrigan/Flemeth want to destroy the world or take it over.
They certainly know a lot, have a plan.
They know that the soul of the old god can continue, and will be cleansed.
If the archdemons soul goes into a grey warden, it cleanses the blight but both die.
What is interesting here is that the child with the taint, has no soul. In this universe it is implied that at conception at least a foetus has no soul yet. One is yet to be formed, or to find the growing child at some point in development.
So archdemon soul goes into a vessel without a soul, but with taint. Cleansing the Old God soul.

Now it strikes me that there is a plan. Morrigan and Flemeth are certainly not promoting the blight. Also the Darkspawn seek out the old gods to create and turn them to archdemons.

I would not expect that Morrigans intent is to create a new archdemon 20 years from now, becuase whats the point of that. If they wanted the blight, just let it continue.

Rather what I would expect is there is something here to do with the black city, the child and cleansing the city, maybe even ending the blight and corruption together.
Nothing here fits with Morrigan being a twisted puppet controller of the a god.

There is a plan, but its not the blatantly evil one you make it out to be.

Edit:
Logic here.
7 Old gods, 4 archdemons down, 1 currently up and running.  Get rid of this one and we have 2 more to come.
Cleanse the black city and save the souls of those two old gods, are those old gods not worth saving?
Do there souls not matter.
Look at it another way.
2 more blights =  2 more chances for the darkspawn, 2 more times of major upheaval and los of life.
Logically if there is a way of stopping those blights before they begin, you can take it right?

Modifié par Allattar1, 03 décembre 2009 - 11:38 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Wrong. I can say some things for sure.

I don't know if hte darkspawn WILL reach the child, but it is far more probable then Allistair killing all the other old gods. And it's a GIANT RISK that can lead to death of thousands. It's as simple as that.

You kill the Archdemon - no more risk from it. Period.
You do the ritual - risk is still there. Of hte old god beign hostile or another Blight.

The is the simplest, purest logic and fact that cannot be denied.

You're too confident on your "undeniable" facts and logic.
For one, the risk is not as big as it might seem. Why? Simple - because you already defeated that very archdemon whose soul is supposed to purify and seek refuge in the child. Yes, there could be a war and many dead again. On the other hand, the power of an old god might be enough to stop the blights without having to repeat the blight - war - kill the archdemon cycle - eventually saving more lives that you risk. You consider that risk too big. But there were choices of about similar magnitude in the game before. For example, whether or not to save the Circle of Magi. Another abomination attack could also lead to the death of thousands, right? Really, your character is pretty much forced to make choices that change the world through the entire game. And you're telling me about the last one "nah, it's evil to take it, it could change the world". Seriously? 

[Lughsan35]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Beren082 wrote...

I agree, it's not black and white. it is not absolutely either a good or evil choice, just like actually sacrificing yourself may not be a purely good or evil choice. first off, you don't know either way. saying that the darkspawn are undoubtedly going to reach the child, or that it will invariably be evil is the same as saying that Alistair will certainly find and destroy the other old gods before they can even pose a threat. it's possible but that possibility is based on how you played the game. basically, the way you approached your relationship with Morrigan dictates whether it is necessarily a wise/moral choice or not.

Wrong. I can say some things for sure.

I don't know if hte darkspawn WILL reach the child, but it is far more probable then Allistair killing all the other old gods. And it's a GIANT RISK that can lead to death of thousands. It's as simple as that.

You kill the Archdemon - no more risk from it. Period.
Please tell that to the ghosts of the preivous 4 Warden's that would beg to differ.
You do the ritual - risk is still there. Of hte old god beign hostile or another Blight.

The is the simplest, purest logic and fact that cannot be denied.

Only if you overlook that the Morrigan states ratherly plainly, "The Archdemon is destroyed by the purity of the child, much the same way it would be destroyed by your own sacrifice."

This is a solution where No one but the bad guy dies....

You Are ASSUMING bad things from the ritual simply because of your own jaded definition that all Dark is bad.  its Dark every night and not every night is Bad or the end of the world.

Some people are dark and not all dark people are bad. 

The IMMEDIATE risk is you are DEAD after 'killing' the Archdemon.  Then what? It hasn't worked the PREVIOUS 4 times to end the blight forever.  Its INSANE to think that doing the SAME thing over and over will lead to a different result.

Here there is a CHANCE that things will turn out for the better.  AND as a Bonus when said Child comes of age and IS NOT THE SAVIOR you though he might be.. YOU are still around to end him...

:innocent:

You are so convince you are right its astonishing how narrow minded and simple you seem to be...good thing not all the people thought as you do.  They are still alive fighting Darkspawn having ended THIS blight successfully.

The future will take care of itself, part of it with a little help from you. 

[Fishy]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Being selfish and not wanting to die is only one reason to accept Morrigan's offer.
My first character have seen it as a chance to stop the Blight without permanently removing something of great power from the world. So he accepted.

So you impregnated a witch of the wild .. and a  power Hungry one that would do anything to become more powerful .. walk with a old god inside her belly .. Do you really think she will share  that power  ?Even if you romance her .. she leave you like a pair of smelly underwear .

I think your dick talked more for you than your brain!

[Alex Savchovsky]

Suprez30 wrote...
So you impregnated a witch of the wild .. and a  power Hungry one that would do anything to become more powerful .. walk with a old god inside her belly .. Do you really think she will share  that power  ?Even if you romance her .. she leave you like a pair of smelly underwear .

I think your dick talked more for you than your brain!

You would be right if I shared your opinion on Morrigan's character. However, I do not.

[BradTheMad]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...
So you impregnated a witch of the wild .. and a  power Hungry one that would do anything to become more powerful .. walk with a old god inside her belly .. Do you really think she will share  that power  ?Even if you romance her .. she leave you like a pair of smelly underwear .

I think your dick talked more for you than your brain!

You would be right if I shared your opinion on Morrigan's character. However, I do not.

Also, if you get Morrigan far enough on the "I like you-scale-o-meter" she gives you a ring and when all is done you can read after the ending that she feels remorse and regret...awwww:crying: