1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Allattar1]

I can only say it was selfish or short sighted and careless based on what your character believes about Morrigan.

Selfish in wanting to live, yes,

Short sighted, my opinion no, becuase I dont believe Morrigan is the power mad crazy doom creating B**** you all seem to think she is.

Careless, not at all, my pc understood something else was going on, is rescuing an old god selfish? Again this depends on what you believe of Morrigan, she will not reveal all, but something is going on here. Something that will promote change, and growth, but not destruction like the blight.



I will change my mind based on other characters.

[TheRealIncarnal]

I accepted it because I felt that it was a choice that was more Morrigan's to make than mine. She was the one taking the large risk, not myself. So long as the Archdeamon still dies and the blight ends then that's what matters. If I'm wrong and Morrigan's baby is corrupted then I think it will be easier to deal with than a Dragon, although I might be wrong.



It is a little selfish, but it seems to be worth the risk.

[Kerilus]

I won't deny that I was not ready to die no matter how it turns out and thus am selfish on this account. However, at that point to me Morrigan also does that to save me for love's sake. And I'm confident that she will pass the love we shared to the child.

[twincast]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So I wonder...when will anyone actually manage to mage a good argument. My 2 main arguments still stand:
1. Killing the archdemon is a far safer course to take for everyone - especially the baby.
2. Everything you know about the ritual is from Morrigan. While your character can trust her, her words are not fact. Some happenings and parts of fluff on the other hand, are.

It's riskier, yes. But as the saying goes, high risk, high return. My main's willing to take it and I'd be, too. Especially since we happen to believe, trust and genuinely like Morrigan - which doesn't mean I or him (or Darwin for that matter) agree with her ideas of social darwinism.
Anyway, I find it pretty presumptuous of you to tell us that the only possible reason behind agreeing to the ritual is being selfish, while the sacrifice is supposedly selfless. To repeat myself; my mage here(<-) isn't keen on dying, but by the time the offer came up he had his mind dead set on dealing the final blow if Riordan were to fail. Believe it or not, his own wellbeing was the last thing on his mental checklist whether to agree and he would have supported it just as much if it had been a total stranger who would've been saved the cost of killing the archdemon, simply because any unnecessary/preemptive bloodshed is wrong to him/me/us/bread.

[Dark83]

If the kid is the PC in the next game, that would be horribly cliche and terrible writing. Though I guess that PC would definitely be a successor to Baldur's Gate's PC.



On a pragmatic level, it's a terrible choice. We go from "two blights left" to "two or three blights left". Or "two blights left and holy crap a dragon/demon/god/angstyteen obliterating the Chantry (Orlais, Antiva, Ferelden...)".

[mscotch]

I don't see it as being either evil or selfish. Both sacrifice and the dark ritual result in ending  the Blight. If the dark ritual had been offered to previous Grey Wardens, I'm sure it would have been at least considered. Just because the previous Blights ended with a Grey Warden sacrificing himself doesn't mean novel solutions should be ignored.

Modifié par mscotch, 03 décembre 2009 - 05:09 .

[biffmastah]

Kerilus wrote...

I won't deny that I was not ready to die no matter how it turns out and thus am selfish on this account. However, at that point to me Morrigan also does that to save me for love's sake. And I'm confident that she will pass the love we shared to the child.

I wouldn't have a problem with that except that she dumps your ass if you tell her you don't want to do it. That's not love, it's convenience. In my game, she would giggle when I clicked on her because she was at +100 with me. I got a chance to see all of that interaction, but I also saw her disapproval every time I did something for the greater good, such as helping redcliffe or destroying the anvil.

Hence, the only way to maintain her approval was to buy her off with gifts by the end of the game. Not for the love, not for the good of mankind, but for her benefit alone.

Bioware does a good job of making both flemeth and morrigan seem altruistic because you are rescued from the tower, but in the end, it all comes full circle and you made aware that you were only spared so that you would have the chance at making the dark ritual happen.

Now, a question of my own. Does anyone know if she makes her proposal if you have not included her at all and she has 0 approval?

[Herr Uhl]

biffmastah wrote...
... but I also saw her disapproval every time I did something for the greater good, such as helping redcliffe or destroying the anvil.

I dislike the destruction of said anvil as being for the greater good. For goodness, maybe but not greater good.

Now, a question of my own. Does anyone know if she makes her proposal if you have not included her at all and she has 0 approval?

Aye

[biffmastah]

Dark83 wrote...

If the kid is the PC in the next game, that would be horribly cliche and terrible writing. Though I guess that PC would definitely be a successor to Baldur's Gate's PC.

On a pragmatic level, it's a terrible choice. We go from "two blights left" to "two or three blights left". Or "two blights left and holy crap a dragon/demon/god/angstyteen obliterating the Chantry (Orlais, Antiva, Ferelden...)".

Yes, I agree completely. You can't say that just because your character sees hope for Morrigan and is in love with her that the dark ritual is a good thing. There is too much at stake for you to send this child off with morrigan never to be seen or heard from again.

Another poster said either one would end the blight, but according to both Duncan and the other grey warden, the only way to stop a blight is to kill the archdemon. Not send it into another host without the taint of the darkspawn at that point in time. Archdemon dies the grey warden, the blight is officially over. The dark ritual happens, well...we can't say for sure that the blight is over. If even one person suffers because of the dark ritual (including the child), then it would be short-sighted and selfish of the PC to consider it.

It's like a risk cube, or risk trend. It poses two questions: What is the likelihood of this event, and what are the consequences if it does occur. The likelihood of the child warping into another archdemon is unknown. However, the consequences are catastrophic.

I work for the Air Force as a configuration manager. If the likelihood of the current in-development canopy on the f-135 disintegrating in mid-flight during a rainstorm is even remote, the project is abandoned, because the consequence is loss-of-life.  Is it unlikely to occur? yes. But is it worth it? absolutely no.

We don't even know the risk of this child turning into something evil, and yet we're willing to risk another blight over it? Seems a bit insane to me.

[Allattar1]

The anvil is a great example.

The anvil is powerful, with it you can create a race of golems. A poweful nigh on unstoppable force to defeat the darkspawn - Good thing.

The anvil ends up enslaving a soul, it needs a life to create a life. That life will not, cannot remember what it was - bad thing.

Control rods are part of the package, the soul has to be enslaved - slavery bad thing.

If people volunteer for the good of the world, a sacrifice perhaps at the end of there lives - surely a good thing.

But what happens if someone abuses that power, a few criminals here, well ok they looked at me wrong they can go under the hammer too, well they are casteless its practically a kindness ... - a very bad thing.



For the result of a good thing, fighting off an evil destructive race the darkspawn...



The right thing? well is there a right solution to the above, can you guarantee the anvil will never ever be used in the wrong way? but if you dont use the anvil lives will be lost, more than if you did use the anvil?



The greater good can cover a majority of sins.

[RunCDFirst]

Kerilus wrote...

I won't deny that I was not ready to die no matter how it turns out and thus am selfish on this account. However, at that point to me Morrigan also does that to save me for love's sake. And I'm confident that she will pass the love we shared to the child.

All you need is love.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Allattar1 wrote...

The problem Lotion is you are trying to justify your point of view which is just as much conjecture as anything else.

Nah. I base everything on fact and thigns we KNOW or have seen. Not on what MIGHT be or what we never saw, like you.

YOU believe that Morrigan is creating some great evil and YOU have constructed some logical fallacies to prove that to yourself, and then flat out refuse to acknowledge any other suggestion. ie, your getting hysterical trying to prove you are right, about a computer game.
The only fact here is we do not know.

Morrigan might be creating a great evil. Or not. She herself might not know fully what she is doing, especially if she learnt the stuff from Flemeths book. I'm not saying what will happen.
I'm making no fallacies - they are compltely on your side of the fence.
As I said, I based my argument purely on fact and quotes and practical knowledge from the game and books.
You base yours on wishfull thinking.
Again, try to disprove my points..if oyu can. I see you havn't even tried..cause you can't.

I believe you have misunderstood/misinterpreted the character of Morrigan. Which is my right to believe and state that, just as much as you believe she is the devil incarnate.

Nope, she's not the devil incarnate. but she is not a nice person either. Far from it.

For what point would Morrigan create a godchild, if her intention was creating another blight.
Face it there is one already going on, so creating a godchild that would create another blight is just stupid. Morrigans character isn't stupid, her character is very very pragmatic, definately not stupid.

I'm not saying she's creating the godchild for another blight ON PURPOSE. Who knows why she wants it. Prabably to posses it. She cares more for hte first under her fingernails than children, that we saw trough the game. Who knows, maybe she doesn't want to posses it.
Either way, Morrigan isn't a motherly figure, deliberately avoids answering what she plans to do with YOUR child. If that isn't suspicios, I don't know what is.
And let's not forget that she isn't known for her alturism. You can make a safe bet she isn't taking the god shild with her to save Ferelden.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
First of all, you have ZERO evidence that possessing the kid would grant her that power. In the game it is suggested that possession destroys the original inhabitant of the body - oh, hey, but that's the old god. So what do you suggest, that his power has "leaked" into the body? Now it is you who starts a theory based on nothing.
Second, I can't recall a single act or opinion showing that Morrigan is power-hungry. The closest one is her wanting Flemeth's grimoire, but this could be simply a will to defend herself, since she only wanted it after she found out about Flemeth planning to possess her.

Well, unless you consider David Gaiders words not to be evidence....sure..whatever rocks your boat..whatever

Btw. Yes, I do not know her motives to want the child. Neither do you. You consider the risk too great, I do not. It's called personal opinion.

And you can have an oppinion that gravity is a lie. Oppinions can be stupid and wrong.


******

So I ask again - provide any proof of your theories. I have proven my assertions.

It is proven trough the game that killing the archdemon ends the blight. It is a known fact darkspawn are drawn to an Old God.
It's a fact that everything you know about the ritual is what Morrigan tells you.
It is a fact that the child is yours and Morrigan wants to do some rather dubious experimentations with it, and doesn't want to clarify anything. YOUR child. And she's being tight lipped (and scrams afterwards). If that doens't start raising some question, then your love for her has made you blind, deaf and stupid.

Ergo, the threat is real and probable.

Do you have ANYTHING to prove that the baby will be really unharmed? That it will be a force of good that will end all blights? NO? I'm still waiting.

So insted of thinking with your d***** and post wishfull thinking and unsupported maybes, start posting some facts. Then, maybe we cna actualyl have a sensible discussion. 

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 décembre 2009 - 05:58 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Dude, it's all speculations anyways. We all know the facts, since we played the game and went through the conversations. The conclusions differ. Surprised? Without full information the conclusion will always differ, because everybody has a different view on the missing pieces.

[FrankE62]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So I wonder...when will anyone actually manage to mage a good argument. My 2 main arguments still stand:
1. Killing the archdemon is a far safer course to take for everyone - especially the baby.
2. Everything you know about the ritual is from Morrigan. While your character can trust her, her words are not fact. Some happenings and parts of fluff on the other hand, are.

1. How is guaranteeing that the world suffers through 2 more blights a 'safe' course? 
2, Can you name an instance of Morrigan lying to your character? 

If you assume that morrigan is telling you the truth about the dark ritual then it doesn't  really matter what her reasons are for wanting to bring an old god back. The real question is whether bringing back the old god of beauty is a good or bad thing. It's a safe bet that he wouldn't be a friend of Blight if brought back and maybe he could end them by waking the rest of the old gods. The answer to that is unknowable. For my character it boiled down to the fact that I didn't like the current status quo in the world and taking a chance to shake things up was a risk worth taking.  

[FedericoV]

Facts: Morrigain believes firmly that the strongest should rule the weaker and has every right about his life (when you are offered the option to use the blood of city elves to raise your constitution by the Tevinter Mage, she supports that choice).



Morrigain believes that mages are stronger than anyone else (another supporter of the mages are OP faction ) and should not be ruled by the "sheep morality" of the Chantry.



Even if I do not support the "Morrigain is evil and the god child is a new blight" theory, even if I do think that "The Warden" has every right (selfish or not) to refuse self sacrifice since Duncan wasn't very honest with him from the beginning, since you have no choice game wise, and since probably the teaching of the chantry are based upon historical falsification, we can't deny those facts.



Morrigain is not without feelings. But still it's very unlikely that she is up to something that most of the people would consider to be good. Having said that, Fereldens were in to a civil war even during the blight... so man will allways find a way to kill each other and if you live or you die, if the god child born or not, you won't change that fact.



Moreover, I'm pretty sure that no matter what you choose, Morrigain has allready find a way to perform the ritual. Only, you have been offered to say "yes" because she feels guilty and respect your strenght. The god child will born nonetheless imho. So, self sacrifice it's only a narcisistic choice. From a pragmatic point of view, there is no reason to choose to die.

[Fumi Fumi Chan]

Nirvana_Dest wrote...

Personally I feel the "dark ritual" is a lead in to a future new chapter in the story. Also, since I went to such great lengths romancing Allistair and getting him to name me Queen at his side if either one of us died then it would have ruined all my hard work!

Exactly the same reason I did it, I guess I am selfish but I am Queen of Ferelden now!!!!

[Lotion Soronarr]

FrankE62 wrote...
1. How is guaranteeing that the world suffers through 2 more blights a 'safe' course? 
2, Can you name an instance of Morrigan lying to your character? 

If you assume that morrigan is telling you the truth about the dark ritual then it doesn't  really matter what her reasons are for wanting to bring an old god back. The real question is whether bringing back the old god of beauty is a good or bad thing. It's a safe bet that he wouldn't be a friend of Blight if brought back and maybe he could end them by waking the rest of the old gods. The answer to that is unknowable. For my character it boiled down to the fact that I didn't like the current status quo in the world and taking a chance to shake things up was a risk worth taking.  

Wh..What? Are you insane? Youre response n01 makes no sense whatsoever. What are you basing it on?
You left me speechless here.
So killing a archdemon to stop the 5th blight guarnatees 2 more blights? WTF are you on?
On what do you base your redicolous assertion that doing the ritual will stop the enxt 2 blights? What? Where?

As for 2. ...How can it not matter? IT's YOUR CHILD. She just wants to do some blood magic with it and take off with it, without telling you anything. Are you even listenign to yourself?
What kind of a parent would oyu be? God, I hope you never have children...for their sake.
and no, it isn't a safe bet that it wouldn't be a friend of hte lbight. you seem to conveniently forget about the part where the uncorrupted Old Gods call for hte darkspawn.

Really, I'll just start ignoring reponses like this. 0 thought has gone into putting it together. ZERO.

[mrao]

I can't really see how the ritual can be shown as being not selfish, with the information we have. Its meant to be that way because while your hero might be alive, the victory is a hollow one and there is much uncertainty about the future because of what you did the night before. I can certainly picture my character having a "what the hell did I just do" moment, the morning after. There's just too many unknowns, for it not to be a huge risk.

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Really, I'll just start ignoring reponses like this. 0 thought has gone into putting it together. ZERO.

I think that would probably be the best for everyone, if not for the sake of your own blood pressure.

I really don't understand all your hostility. Is that necessary? This is just a discussion about a game.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:26 .

[syllogi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As for 2. ...How can it not matter? IT's YOUR CHILD. She just wants to do some blood magic with it and take off with it, without telling you anything. Are you even listenign to yourself?
What kind of a parent would oyu be? God, I hope you never have children...for their sake.
and no, it isn't a safe bet that it wouldn't be a friend of hte lbight. you seem to conveniently forget about the part where the uncorrupted Old Gods call for hte darkspawn.

Really, I'll just start ignoring reponses like this. 0 thought has gone into putting it together. ZERO.

I agree with your position for the most part, so I have had no dog in this fight, but you're going a little far here.  I'm a mom, I've been raising my kid to be moral and good, but had no problem with getting the Dark Ritual achievement in this game.  Much like some people have no problem with choosing Loghain over Alistair (which is incomprehensible to me, personally), I have no problem with performing a potentially evil, and certainly selfish act, if it will guarantee that my character will get a "happy ending." 

I couldn't finish Fallout 3 until Broken Steel came out.  I REFUSED to finish, actually.  I was also pretty dissatisfied with the ending of Oblivion, because I really liked a certain character.  I love reading doomed romances and tragic stories, but when *my* character is the protagonist, I don't enjoy it.  I like to imagine what my characters do after the game is over, and I don't find the idea of a grand sacrifice to be satisfying.  It doesn't mean I'm morally bankrupt or a jerk in real life.

[Taleroth]

marshalleck wrote...

I really don't understand all your hostility. Is that necessary?

I really don't understand your moustache.  Is that necessary?

[mrao]

Good post TeenZombie.

I'm also a little disturbed at how quick some are to insult or judge the person behind the computer because of a decision they make in a game. This threads' gotten pretty heated.

Modifié par mrao, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:38 .

[marshalleck]

Taleroth wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I really don't understand all your hostility. Is that necessary?

I really don't understand your moustache.  Is that necessary?

 If you'd ever been fortunate enough to take it for a ride you would know it is in fact necessary. Very, very necessary.

[Alex Savchovsky]

mrao wrote...

I can't really see how the ritual can be shown as being not selfish, with the information we have. Its meant to be that way because while your hero might be alive, the victory is a hollow one and there is much uncertainty about the future because of what you did the night before. I can certainly picture my character having a "what the hell did I just do" moment, the morning after. There's just too many unknowns, for it not to be a huge risk.

Many people "can't really see", but it is OK. The problem comes when they conclude that because they "can't really see" something, it is not possible at all. Despite the obvious evidences that many other CAN really see it. And these very people are talking about wisdom?

[Herr Uhl]

marshalleck wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I really don't understand all your hostility. Is that necessary?

I really don't understand your moustache.  Is that necessary?

 If you'd ever been fortunate enough to take it for a ride you would know it is in fact necessary. Very, very necessary.

Oghren taught you his trick, didn't he. You slick bastard. There is a reason to why the ladies put up with him