1807 réponses à ce sujet

[mrao]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

mrao wrote...

I can't really see how the ritual can be shown as being not selfish, with the information we have. Its meant to be that way because while your hero might be alive, the victory is a hollow one and there is much uncertainty about the future because of what you did the night before. I can certainly picture my character having a "what the hell did I just do" moment, the morning after. There's just too many unknowns, for it not to be a huge risk.

Many people "can't really see", but it is OK. The problem comes when they conclude that because they "can't really see" something, it is not possible at all.

I agree with you here. I'm not about to deny the possibility that you could be right about the whole ritual situation. And I'm not going to pass judgements on you because you think differently about it than me.  We all draw our own conclusions, we will only know for sure once bioware writes us a sequel.

Modifié par mrao, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:57 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

mrao wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

mrao wrote...

I can't really see how the ritual can be shown as being not selfish, with the information we have. Its meant to be that way because while your hero might be alive, the victory is a hollow one and there is much uncertainty about the future because of what you did the night before. I can certainly picture my character having a "what the hell did I just do" moment, the morning after. There's just too many unknowns, for it not to be a huge risk.

Many people "can't really see", but it is OK. The problem comes when they conclude that because they "can't really see" something, it is not possible at all.

I agree with you here. I'm not about to deny the possibility that you could be right about the whole ritual situation. And I'm not going to pass judgements on you because you think differently about it than me.  We all draw our own conclusions, we will only know for sure once bioware writes us a sequel.

*handshake*

[037686]

There is no hard and fast answer to any of this.

For all we know, when all of the uncorrupted Old Gods are slain, the world might end. Alternatively, the Maker might return. Or perhaps the Maker doesn't exist. No one knows for sure.

There are multiple scenarios under which performing the ritual could easily be justified. Here is one: there are three Grey Wardens in the entire of Ferelden. If they should all die before reaching the Archdemon, Ferelden is screwed, and the Blight won't be stopped...at least, not for a long while, and perhaps not until it has made irreversible headway aboveground.

By performing the ritual, you essentially raise the number of people who can actually destroy the Archdemon by 33%. So long as Morrigan is even alive in the area, the AD would be destroyed. If Morrigan died in the battle, then the other 3 Grey Wardens would still be able to potentially stop it.

Having your entire hopes pinned on the survival of three people in a massive battle is threadbare at best. Adding an extra contingency to stop the Blight is far from being a bad thing. Remember, the Grey Wardens aim to stop the Blight, whatever the cost. That includes this ritual, because like it or not, it DOES offer an additional option that the "conventional" approach does not.

Modifié par 037686, 03 décembre 2009 - 10:00 .

[Malhavoc Adhamar]

Meh. If the kid decides to try the 'I shall rule the world rawr' path then I'll just have to remind him/her/it/watermelon what happened to the last Evil Dragony thing that tried. More to the point is that I'm alive, hunting after Morrigan with a red head at my side.



The Old God reborn could offer insight into old magic and possibly a way to defeat the Darkspawn once and for all. Not to mention gives a handy child of unknown origins that could be the new PC in whatever game follows DA:O. In the mean time theres places to see and things to kill.

[Vicious]

Im betting a sequel with the child will have nothing to do with Blights and only a little bit to do with the Darkspawn, and almost all to do with the Fade, Demons, and the Black City.



After all, aren't the remaining Old Gods roaming the Fade as they sleep? Wouldn't Demons be drawn to an Old God more so than other dreamers?

[Obadiah]

Boo, Bioware wants another BG storyline about some godly PC character wandering the lands... blech!

[marshalleck]

Vicious wrote...

Im betting a sequel with the child will
have nothing to do with Blights and only a little bit to do with the
Darkspawn, and almost all to do with the Fade, Demons, and the Black
City.

After all, aren't the remaining Old Gods roaming the Fade
as they sleep? Wouldn't Demons be drawn to an Old God more so than
other dreamers?

It's an interesting thought. Demons feed on the energy of a mortal's psyche, so to be attracted to an Old God I would think they would have to be sufficiently similar to mortals. That may not be the case with Old Gods in whatever their untainted, imprisoned forms take..but an Old God in the form of a human...that could be quite enticing to a demon, I imagine.

Arl Foreshadow certainly hints at Godbaby and the Fade as well.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 décembre 2009 - 10:39 .

[Taleroth]

I'm half tempted to suspect they'll jump to the next Blight entirely, skipping several hundred years to give us a time period that features gunpowder. Maybe make it steampunk inspired.



Of course, they could make a direct followup as well.

[Malhavoc Adhamar]

Obadiah wrote...

Boo, Bioware wants another BG storyline about some godly PC character wandering the lands... blech!

Nah. The leaked plot idea for the sequal is that you're a goldy PC character with a dream to become a pig farmer. The game has you travelling the lands searching for rare breeds, good farm sites and of course the trips to market. The final quest has you making the epic run from your farm to the capital city in time for the annual pig fair where you and your prized porker compete against the world's best pig farmers.

The name: Dragon Age 2: Swineherder!





True story

[PMorgan18]

Morrigan is honest, brutally honest. Listen when she talks to Alistair. I can't even think when she lied to anybody. She has no problem telling stuff but also conveniently leaving stuff out. So then the baby is actually a reborn, taintless old god.



Morrigan will be in the next game no matter what, all it will be you run into her or you are searching for her. A kid will be in sequel only if there was a relationship with Morrigan and probably won't have a large part in the second Dragon Age but the third game probably be very important.

[Haiyato]

But what bugs me is that if you make Alistair king and marry the Queen, he will say something along the lines about you should have died when you talk to him at the end. Were the Grey Warden's wrong about one of us dieing? because pretty much he said there hasn't been a Grey Warden that survived the Arch Demon asides from someone from the first blight. And how there are going to be a lot of questions about this. (I can't remember the name of the Grey Warden that survives from the first blight) It definitely got me thinking that this is not the first time the dark ritual happened.

[Thorrior]

Silensfurtim wrote...

We all know that Grey Wardens die whenever they kill an Archdemon. They know that from the start.

Do they? In my play through, my character wasn't informed until the last 2 hrs of gameplay.

Here's my understanding: I (the PC) am one of the last surviving Grey Wardens in Feralden. If all goes well according to my plans,  Alastair will become the King which exempts him from the duties of the Grey Wardens. This leaves us down to two Grey Warden in all of Feralden. Now we don't know that Riordan might die prior to slaying the Archdemon, but we can assume that he may, especially considering his plan to take a seperate route from the main party. So if he does die, as would be realisticly anticipated in a battle of this magnitude, only one Grey Warden is left to lead Ferelden. Am I to just kill myself off and leave the Grey Wardens in Ferelden extinct? This would undo everything Duncan fought for. Even if Riordan didn't die prior to slaying the Archdemon, that is still two Grey Wardens left in the kingdom, which is far more effective than one or none.

Slaying the Archdemon is not going to get rid of the thousands of darkspawn still roaming around on the surface. Feralden needs a champion, not a matyr. I'm a young, hardened, skilled warrior and a capable leader. The Grey Wardens are not bound by a code as strict as one might seem to think. A Grey Warden dies with the Archdemon, because that is the only way they've known to ever be able to kill it. But Grey Wardens are practical and inventive. If a Grey Warden can survive slaying the Archdemon, and be of further use to the order and to Thedas, the Grey Warden will choose to live.

The entire point of this game is not to look at the story in black and white. Bioware named them Grey Wardens for a reason. Grey, that's the color they see the world in.

[mrao]

Do they? In my play through, my character wasn't informed until the last 2 hrs of gameplay.

Talk to Alistair enough, eventually he will tell you (should be well before endgame if you are friends with him).

[Ulicus]

He tells you that all Grey Wardens have only thirty or so years to live after they participate in the joining. He, like the player, doesn't know the full truth.

[RunCDFirst]

Taleroth wrote...

I'm half tempted to suspect they'll jump to the next Blight entirely, skipping several hundred years to give us a time period that features gunpowder. Maybe make it steampunk inspired.

Of course, they could make a direct followup as well.

That makes Dragon Age a set trilogy? With a poor choice of franchise name?

Unless the sequels all happen in the next hundred years. Maybe the darkspawn get really uppidy. The fact that there are two more Blights left does lend to a nice complete set of three.

I suspect they'll do something different for the sequel though. Maybe something with more political intrique, as mentioned in Arl Foreshadow's codex.

[JaegerBane]

Thorrior wrote...
Slaying the Archdemon is not going to get rid of the thousands of darkspawn still roaming around on the surface. Feralden needs a champion, not a matyr. I'm a young, hardened, skilled warrior and a capable leader. The Grey Wardens are not bound by a code as strict as one might seem to think. A Grey Warden dies with the Archdemon, because that is the only way they've known to ever be able to kill it. But Grey Wardens are practical and inventive. If a Grey Warden can survive slaying the Archdemon, and be of further use to the order and to Thedas, the Grey Warden will choose to live.

The entire point of this game is not to look at the story in black and white. Bioware named them Grey Wardens for a reason. Grey, that's the color they see the world in.

Excellent point.

[biiskit]

PMorgan18 wrote...

Morrigan is honest, brutally honest. Listen when she talks to Alistair. I can't even think when she lied to anybody. She has no problem telling stuff but also conveniently leaving stuff out. So then the baby is actually a reborn, taintless old god.

She's honest when it suits her. Truth is she lies to you from the very start. After Flemeth saves you after the battle of Ostagar Morrigan claims that she doesn't know why Flemeth saved you and that Flemeth never tells her anything. When she makes the dark ritual offer to you though it's clear that this is something they had planned from the beginning. I can't imagine Morrigan being a good influence on an Old God baby either, she's way too messed up.

[marshalleck]

What makes you think your conventional definition of "good" influence is appropriate for an Old God? She needs to teach the child how to control its power and survive as an apostate, not understand table manners or the subtle intrigue of politcal games between noble families.

Besides, Morrigan is *not* Flemeth. The writers went to great lengths to reveal that Morrigan is very much human, and not a monstrous parasite like her mother. Is Morrigan to be indicted for Flemeth's crimes? "Sins of the father" much?

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 décembre 2009 - 12:25 .

[Ulicus]

biiskit wrote...

She's honest when it suits her. Truth is she lies to you from the very start. After Flemeth saves you after the battle of Ostagar Morrigan claims that she doesn't know why Flemeth saved you and that Flemeth never tells her anything. When she makes the dark ritual offer to you though it's clear that this is something they had planned from the beginning.

See, it's hard for me to believe that Morrigan knew what was going on at that point because of this exchange:

Morrigan: Shall we have two guests for the eve, or none?
Flemeth: They're leaving. And you're going with them.
Morrigan: Such a sha- what!?
Flemeth: You heard me. The last time I checked you had ears.

Maybe Flemeth followed her into the hut when Morrigan went to "get her things" and explained it then? I'd be tempted to say that it was something she learnt from Flemeth's grimoire -- but the ritual is offered irrespective of whether or not you get it, so that can't be the case.

Hmm. Actually, I just didn't think about it properly. It could simply be that, though Morrigan knew of the "Dark Ritual" plan and the role she was to play, she hadn't understood that she was to be travelling with the Wardens. Maybe she figured that she was just going to show up at the end as a Deus Ex Machina.

In short, ignore me: the fact that she's surprised to be travelling with the Wardens doesn't preclude her having known about the Dark Ritual at that point. (Though I wouldn't say it's set in stone that she knew about it when she speaks to you in the hut)

[RunCDFirst]

Ulicus wrote...
In short, ignore me: the fact that she's surprised to be travelling with the Wardens doesn't preclude her having known about the Dark Ritual at that point. (Though I wouldn't say it's set in stone that she knew about it when she speaks to you in the hut)

I don't think I will.

You raise an interesting point, where does Morrigan learn of the Dark Ritual? While I haven't tested, presumably if you don't give Morrigan the Grimoire, she still visits you the night before the big battle. That would suggest that she knew about it before leaving, as I'm hard pressed to think where else she would learn such a ritual.

[eschilde]

Maybe Flemeth stuck a note in the lunch she packed for Morrigan.

[biiskit]

Morrigan explicitly states during the conversation when she makes her offer that she got the ritual from Flemeth and that this was why Flemeth sent her with you. I can't imagine any reason why Flemeth would wait until the very last minute to explain the plan to Morrigan but it's true I can't think of any proof that she didn't.



I also don't have a problem with Morrigan teaching the child to control it's power and how to survive as an apostate. What is concerning is the kind of moral values she would teach it, given that ultimately she chooses power above all else by conceiving the child and running off with it. I doubt she'd be teaching it to give alms to the poor and to protect the weak, which ultimately makes the decision to go through with the ritual extremely dangerous.



Mind you given how easy it was to kill the archdemon perhaps it's not such a big problem after all...

[RunCDFirst]

biiskit wrote...

Morrigan explicitly states during the conversation when she makes her offer that she got the ritual from Flemeth and that this was why Flemeth sent her with you. I can't imagine any reason why Flemeth would wait until the very last minute to explain the plan to Morrigan but it's true I can't think of any proof that she didn't.

I thought it was implied, maybe I missed a dialogue option.

At any rate, why go through the whole song and dance of being surprised she's going with them? I think this is just demonstrating that there really is no way to trust anything Morrigan or Flemeth say to you.

[marshalleck]

biiskit wrote...

I also don't have a problem with Morrigan teaching the child to control it's power and how to survive as an apostate. What is concerning is the kind of moral values she would teach it, given that ultimately she chooses power above all else by conceiving the child and running off with it. I doubt she'd be teaching it to give alms to the poor and to protect the weak, which ultimately makes the decision to go through with the ritual extremely dangerous.

Because the child may not go out of its way to give handouts or "protect" the weak, that makes it dangerous?

Do you give money every time you're approached by someone begging? If you say no does that make you evil or a bad person?

What if you give someone money and they use it on liquor or drugs instead of food, which is indisputably harmful? Did you then do a good deed regardless of the harm that came to the person as a result of your generosity?

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:20 .

[biiskit]

Not really my point, I think we can safely say she won't be teaching it to do good deeds, she'll be teaching it how to survive and gain in power. The question is will she be teaching it to lie and steal or perhaps to murder and enslave? Or perhaps she'll find a way to take its power as her own. Then again we have no way of knowing she can even control it, it will have to soul of an Old God after all. So yeah... very dangerous choice.