1807 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

My point is that good deeds and good intentions don't always lead to good outcomes (well, they do in video games but that's another thread) and incriminating her just because Morrigan doesn't always take the Lawful Stupid path is short sighted. All decisions have impact and consequence beyond the immediate...

Anyways, this thread is just becoming repetition now...

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:40 .

[Iam2ugly]

It's 16 pages of this topic for now. All of you speak about being selfish, or honorable. Wrong or right. All we know about the consequences of our actions in the game, is that we don't know them. Future will tell. This ritual can end up pretty bad, or good for Ferelden. Or all of Thedas.

And I find this as a good Thing. Who can be certain in real life how his decisions can impact future?

In the end, I think that everyone who is saying that this decision is wise, wrong, or whatever else, just wants to justify theirs points of view, and to be assured by others on it.

About the chantry... "The chantry teaches us"... that we need to obey their point of view. Just like any other religion. But they all can be wrong about what they teach.

One thing bugs me. Darkspawns searched IMPRISONED Old God to taint him, for 400 years? it is impossible. HOW LONG the deep roads can be? i mean, I think that maybe an old god don't want to be tainted. Like wardens, they try to fight as long as they can, but in the end they change into mindless beasts. We don't know.

And that is exactly why I find this game so good. So... Human. We do what we think is right, for whatever reason. For love, vengance, honor, duty. But in the end we don't know what will be the outcome. At least for now. The future will tell.

OMG, im speaking nonsence? am I?

Ps. Am I the only one who thinks that there is something else behind grey wardens? I mean... From the begining of the game I felt that there is a secret, that wardens do not want to be discovered? And I am not speaking about The Joining, or final blow... That they are not so noble?

Modifié par Iam2ugly, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:45 .

[RunCDFirst]

marshalleck wrote...

My point is that good deeds and good intentions don't always lead to good outcomes (well, they do in video games but that's another thread) and incriminating her just because Morrigan doesn't always take the Lawful Stupid path is short sighted. All decisions have impact and consequence beyond the immediate...

Anyways, this thread is just becoming repetition now...

I would settle for her taking anything but the Chaotic Stupid path.

Iam2ugly wrote...

It's 16 pages of this topic for now. All of you speak about being selfish, or honorable.

Well... that was the topic of the thread.

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:48 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Iam2ugly wrote...

Ps. Am I the only one who thinks that there is something else behind grey wardens? I mean... From the begining of the game I felt that there is a secret, that wardens do not want to be discovered? And I am not speaking about The Joining, or final blow... That they are not so noble?

I'm pretty sure this is the political angle that BioWare went for.  The Grey Wardens were not founded to be leaders.  They were founded to put a backbone to the fight against the darkspawn.  However, in the Anderfels you hear about how the Wardens became de facto rulers and in Ferelden, you can begin to see the same thing happening depending on your choices.

For example, if you are a Human Noble, you can become king or queen.  Before putting a Grey Warden on the throne, you will ask yourself whether this is the same thing that happened in the Anderfels and whether you want the throne for practical purposes or the good of Ferelden.  There's no real right answer here, but the responsibility and power you gain over the game often leads you to question the real reason for the Wardens.  Should you really be annulling or saving the Circle of Magi?  Should you really be putting a dwarven king on the throne?  Should you really be out-maneuvering Loghain?  I mean, all those things can be for the better, but they have little to do with Grey Warden responsibilities.

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

I'm half tempted to suspect they'll jump to the next Blight entirely, skipping several hundred years to give us a time period that features gunpowder. Maybe make it steampunk inspired.

Of course, they could make a direct followup as well.

That makes Dragon Age a set trilogy? With a poor choice of franchise name?

 Who says Dragon Age is the franchise name?  Maybe it's ___ Age.

[RunCDFirst]

Taleroth wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

I'm half tempted to suspect they'll jump to the next Blight entirely, skipping several hundred years to give us a time period that features gunpowder. Maybe make it steampunk inspired.

Of course, they could make a direct followup as well.

That makes Dragon Age a set trilogy? With a poor choice of franchise name?

 Who says Dragon Age is the franchise name?  Maybe it's ___ Age.

Touche.

I eagerly await the forth coming Claudia Black Age.

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

I'm half tempted to suspect they'll jump to the next Blight entirely, skipping several hundred years to give us a time period that features gunpowder. Maybe make it steampunk inspired.

Of course, they could make a direct followup as well.

That makes Dragon Age a set trilogy? With a poor choice of franchise name?

 Who says Dragon Age is the franchise name?  Maybe it's ___ Age.

Touche.

I eagerly await the forth coming Claudia Black Age.

But yeah, it's probably all going to be in the 100 years of Dragon Age.  I just think skipping time periods would be nice because of opportunities to experiment with varying settings and inherent things in those.  Like steampunk.  Or just guns and gadgets.

[RunCDFirst]

Taleroth wrote...
But yeah, it's probably all going to be in the 100 years of Dragon Age.  I just think skipping time periods would be nice because of opportunities to experiment with varying settings and inherent things in those.  Like steampunk.  Or just guns and gadgets.

It also avoids having to deal with how the player made the choices in their game.

And I'd love BioWare to make a Steampunk game! However unlikely that might be...

[eschilde]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Iam2ugly wrote...

Ps. Am I the only one who thinks that there is something else behind grey wardens? I mean... From the begining of the game I felt that there is a secret, that wardens do not want to be discovered? And I am not speaking about The Joining, or final blow... That they are not so noble?

I'm pretty sure this is the political angle that BioWare went for.  The Grey Wardens were not founded to be leaders.  They were founded to put a backbone to the fight against the darkspawn.  However, in the Anderfels you hear about how the Wardens became de facto rulers and in Ferelden, you can begin to see the same thing happening depending on your choices.

For example, if you are a Human Noble, you can become king or queen.  Before putting a Grey Warden on the throne, you will ask yourself whether this is the same thing that happened in the Anderfels and whether you want the throne for practical purposes or the good of Ferelden.  There's no real right answer here, but the responsibility and power you gain over the game often leads you to question the real reason for the Wardens.  Should you really be annulling or saving the Circle of Magi?  Should you really be putting a dwarven king on the throne?  Should you really be out-maneuvering Loghain?  I mean, all those things can be for the better, but they have little to do with Grey Warden responsibilities.

I couldn't agree more. In the origins, you can see that Duncan puts limits on his actions because as a Grey Warden, it's best that he remains neutral. Essentially, he goes out of his way not to make any decisions that would tip the scales of the social or political balances.

Given the choice to do otherwise, I personally would not have chosen a king for Orzammar, nor do I agree that it is right to put a Grey Warden on the throne, royal blood or not. Grey Warden responsibilities aren't supposed to entail such things, and, personally, I was annoyed that I had to essentially set 5 affairs of state in order before I could go about defeating the Blight. That wasn't in the job description! But unless you do it, no one else will.. and people will listen to you, simply because you are a Grey Warden.

I think this issue gets addressed a little bit in Soldier's Peak. I haven't played through getting a satisfactory answer about what happened there, so I can't speak totally, but you do see the Warden rebellion and get a little bit of an idea of what happened even if you don't get answers from Sophia. The reason they were exiled in the first place was because they felt it their right to start a rebellion and play at politics, though that was not their responsibility.

It's stated in a couple of places that Grey Wardens are not allowed to hold titles, as are mages. I'm not sure if that happened before or after the rebellion, but the reason for Fereldans having that kind of law is clear. But, at what point can the line be drawn between responsibilities for ending the Blight and staying out of politics? In Dragon Age, it's impossible. There is no way to get to the archdemon without grossly overstepping what your normal boundaries would be, precisely because Grey Wardens are supposed to be neutral and therefore fair judges in the eyes of the NPCs, I guess.

[Dark83]

Are we ever given a reason to trust Morrigan? Other than metagame attachment to a party member and boning her? She kind of just follows around being bribed and disapproving.

[marshalleck]

Dark83 wrote...

Are we ever given a reason to trust Morrigan? Other than metagame attachment to a party member and boning her? She kind of just follows around being bribed and disapproving.

Depends on how you play your character. If your outlook is similar to hers, you two get along famously--and why wouldn't you then trust her?

Yeah, if you play the exalted paragon of virtue and are constantly at Morrigan's throat with threats and bribes, you have no reason to ever trust her. Why would you expect otherwise?

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:10 .

[MassEffect762]

marshalleck wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

Are we ever given a reason to trust Morrigan? Other than metagame attachment to a party member and boning her? She kind of just follows around being bribed and disapproving.

Depends on how you play your character. If your outlook is similar to hers, you two get along famously--and why wouldn't you then trust her?

Yeah, if you play the exalted paragon of virtue and are constantly at Morrigan's throat with threats and bribes, you have no reason to ever trust her. Why would you expect otherwise?

Because she's taking off with your kid(with an old god) never to be seen again? Because she "loves" you but not enough to share life with you?

Modifié par MassEffect762, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:15 .

[marshalleck]

MassEffect762 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

Are we ever given a reason to trust Morrigan? Other than metagame attachment to a party member and boning her? She kind of just follows around being bribed and disapproving.

Depends on how you play your character. If your outlook is similar to hers, you two get along famously--and why wouldn't you then trust her?

Yeah, if you play the exalted paragon of virtue and are constantly at Morrigan's throat with threats and bribes, you have no reason to ever trust her. Why would you expect otherwise?

Because she's taking off with your kid(with an old god) never to be seen again? Because she "loves" you but not enough to share life with you?

He's asking why someone who never trusted Morrigan would be inclined to do so for the ritual? What I am saying in response is why would that ever be a reasonable expectation from a narrative standpoint. Of course a player who fights with Morrigan constantly has no reason to trust her.

If said player doesn't trust Morrigan at all and goes ahead with the ritual...you tell us? Why did you go along with it?

[MassEffect762]

Also if you choose "I wanted to thank you for everything" during the final assualt Morrigan will bring up how if you'd been different people in a different time she could have done more for you. That is an odd thing to say.

[RunCDFirst]

marshalleck wrote...
He's asking why someone who never trusted Morrigan would be inclined to do so for the ritual? What I am saying in response is why would that ever be a reasonable expectation from a narrative standpoint. Of course a player who fights with Morrigan constantly has no reason to trust her.

If said player doesn't trust Morrigan at all and goes ahead with the ritual...you tell us? Why did you go along with it?

Even if you get along swimmingly with Morrigan, it's heavily implied that she lied to you throughout the game. I'd consider that good reason not to trust her.

[MassEffect762]

marshalleck wrote...

MassEffect762 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

Are we ever given a reason to trust Morrigan? Other than metagame attachment to a party member and boning her? She kind of just follows around being bribed and disapproving.

Depends on how you play your character. If your outlook is similar to hers, you two get along famously--and why wouldn't you then trust her?

Yeah, if you play the exalted paragon of virtue and are constantly at Morrigan's throat with threats and bribes, you have no reason to ever trust her. Why would you expect otherwise?

Because she's taking off with your kid(with an old god) never to be seen again? Because she "loves" you but not enough to share life with you?

He's asking why someone who never trusted Morrigan would be inclined to do so for the ritual? What I am saying in response is why would that ever be a reasonable expectation from a narrative standpoint. Of course a player who fights with Morrigan constantly has no reason to trust her.

If said player doesn't trust Morrigan at all and goes ahead with the ritual...you tell us? Why did you go along with it?

It pleases Morrigan, my PC was too stuck on stupid/romantic to let Morrigan down. It also seemed like the only possible route to continue the plot/romance should this choice carry any weight on the sequel.

[eschilde]

marshalleck wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

Are we ever given a reason to trust Morrigan? Other than metagame attachment to a party member and boning her? She kind of just follows around being bribed and disapproving.

Depends on how you play your character. If your outlook is similar to hers, you two get along famously--and why wouldn't you then trust her?

Yeah, if you play the exalted paragon of virtue and are constantly at Morrigan's throat with threats and bribes, you have no reason to ever trust her. Why would you expect otherwise?

This is just my opinion.. but if your character's outlook is similar to Morrigan's, taking her up on this offer is probably more about saving your own life and less about whether you actually trust her. Maybe you do trust her, but in that case that's not the point?

[marshalleck]

RunCDFirst wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
He's asking why someone who never trusted Morrigan would be inclined to do so for the ritual? What I am saying in response is why would that ever be a reasonable expectation from a narrative standpoint. Of course a player who fights with Morrigan constantly has no reason to trust her.

If said player doesn't trust Morrigan at all and goes ahead with the ritual...you tell us? Why did you go along with it?

Even if you get along swimmingly with Morrigan, it's heavily implied that she lied to you throughout the game. I'd consider that good reason not to trust her.

No, I dig. He asked why someone who never trusted her--"just follows around being bribed and disapproving"--should trust her at the end. There is no reason that should suddenly change, and I wonder why he would entertain such an expectation.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:28 .

[Iam2ugly]

I personaly belive that Morrigan left, BECOUSE she loves PC.







I wasn't talking about politics... Before the release of the game I was in some sort of CERTAINTY that Gray Wardens will show themselfes as a True Enemy... idk, there was something *strange* in them. Well i was wrong but we don't know what the future holds, don't we?

[MassEffect762]

Iam2ugly wrote...

I personaly belive that Morrigan left, BECOUSE she loves PC.

That remains to be seen. I hope that's the case, but bioware loves beating around the bushs.

[Taleroth]

RunCDFirst wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
He's asking why someone who never trusted Morrigan would be inclined to do so for the ritual? What I am saying in response is why would that ever be a reasonable expectation from a narrative standpoint. Of course a player who fights with Morrigan constantly has no reason to trust her.

If said player doesn't trust Morrigan at all and goes ahead with the ritual...you tell us? Why did you go along with it?

Even if you get along swimmingly with Morrigan, it's heavily implied that she lied to you throughout the game. I'd consider that good reason not to trust her.

About what?

[marshalleck]

Taleroth wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
He's asking why someone who never trusted Morrigan would be inclined to do so for the ritual? What I am saying in response is why would that ever be a reasonable expectation from a narrative standpoint. Of course a player who fights with Morrigan constantly has no reason to trust her.

If said player doesn't trust Morrigan at all and goes ahead with the ritual...you tell us? Why did you go along with it?

Even if you get along swimmingly with Morrigan, it's heavily implied that she lied to you throughout the game. I'd consider that good reason not to trust her.

About what?

Lies of omission perhaps. She knows the PC could die from killing the Archdemon...but perhaps she assumes, as Riordan did, that the PC already was well aware.

Anything else? It seems to me she just has a problem telling the whole truth as opposed to blatant lying.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:40 .

[RunCDFirst]

[quote]Taleroth wrote...
Even if you get along swimmingly with Morrigan, it's heavily implied that she lied to you throughout the game. I'd consider that good reason not to trust her.[/quote]

About what?
[/quote]

As stupid as it sounds, I don't know.

Anytime
Flemeth and Morrigan are in the picture, the only thing you know is
that neither are on the level. When I talked to Flemeth about Morrigan
it was suggested that this whole thing was some sort of song and dance
they've done. I could have sworn something came up in the final
conversation as well, but it's been some time so I can't remember any
details.

Morrigan also suggests that the Dark Ritual was the
sole reason for her following you around, and no doubt this explanation
occurs whether or not you give her the Grimoire which suggests she
wasn't truthful with you from the beginning.

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:01 .

[MassEffect762]

Taleroth wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
He's asking why someone who never trusted Morrigan would be inclined to do so for the ritual? What I am saying in response is why would that ever be a reasonable expectation from a narrative standpoint. Of course a player who fights with Morrigan constantly has no reason to trust her.

If said player doesn't trust Morrigan at all and goes ahead with the ritual...you tell us? Why did you go along with it?

Even if you get along swimmingly with Morrigan, it's heavily implied that she lied to you throughout the game. I'd consider that good reason not to trust her.

About what?

I think he means the part where Morrigan says she doesn't know why Flemeth saved PC/Alistair at Ostagar. Then before leaving says "this is not how I wanted this" which doesn't necessarily imply she knew the true reason at that time but comes off as suspicious.

Later on during the ritual she explains that this was her/flemeths goal all along.

[Dark83]

Actually, I never fought with Morrigan.
Reasons you (supposedly) trust them:
Alistair is your fellow Grey Warden and pretty much obeys you. He tells you his life story, but you get a pretty good sense of who he is.
Wynne also gives you her life story, and her dialog indicates heavily
that she supports what you're doing. You didn't kill her and helped
save the mages, after all. She was also with you in Ostagar, and has
the same views about Loghain's betrayal.
Leliana is a religious fanatic who thinks you're The One. In discussions you can accuse her of being a spy, but she talks about her background in detail and you can verify it by meeting her old boss.
Zevran is pretty upfront about everything, including that you can't entirely trust him. He helps you because you spared him, and your company means he's safe from the Crows.

Dog is
Sten is apparently bound to you via deathwish/honor, so it depends on your knowledge about his code of conduct. Also his main mission appears to be to discover (and eventually changes to end) the Blight.
Oghram, I have no idea, it's more that he's directionless and following you cue, much like Alistair.

You talk to these people, and you find it out, and get to know that.

Morrigan talks about her childhood, and tells you that she's only with you because her mom told her to. I mean, we talk, but she never really touches on what we're doing. There's a lot of discussion initially about her mother, her views on love and such. You never get anything beyond "oh, my mom told me to" as for why she's with you. Then you find out she lied about that. I mean, really now.

We have fellow Grey Warden and hapless fools following us, as well as crazy people who think we're The **** who'll save the world. We have people we're saved (and thus owe us), people who stick with us because we're their protection. We have someone bound to us and on a similiar mission to us, who also become indebted to us at the conclusion of their quest. Then we have Morrigan, who's with us because her mom told her to, for reasons she hid from us.

Why should we trust her so much, with matters of such great consequence? Even the others (other than Dog and Alistair)  may well have other motives. Wynne may be a spy for the Circle, Leliana for the Chantry or Orlais, Zev for the Crows/Antiva. Other than metagame knowledge and emotional attachment in that they're party members and major characters, if it suddenly turns out that Leliana worked for Orlais or the Chantry all along, and then asked you to do something that may save your life but could potentially unleash another Blight, would you?

The most trustworthy ones appear to be Dog, Alistair and I suppose Shale (paralyzed for 30 years?). Perhaps Wynne, because she was supposed to die at Ostagar, and so probably isn't in a conspiracy targetting you.

Edit: Oh, then throw in the facts about Flemeth, and add in some doubt as to if you managed to kill her and if she took over Morrigan, OR don't kill her at all, and now you've got a questionable third party that may completely make the issue of trusting Morrigan (who may cease to exist) moot.

Modifié par Dark83, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:03 .