1807 réponses à ce sujet

[RunCDFirst]

Enchantment!

(double post)

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:01 .

[MassEffect762]

Dark83 wrote...

Actually, I never fought with Morrigan.
Reasons you (supposedly) trust them:
Alistair is your fellow Grey Warden and pretty much obeys you. He tells you his life story, but you get a pretty good sense of who he is.
Wynne also gives you her life story, and her dialog indicates heavily
that she supports what you're doing. You didn't kill her and helped
save the mages, after all. She was also with you in Ostagar, and has
the same views about Loghain's betrayal.
Leliana is a religious fanatic who thinks you're The One. In discussions you can accuse her of being a spy, but she talks about her background in detail and you can verify it by meeting her old boss.
Zevran is pretty upfront about everything, including that you can't entirely trust him. He helps you because you spared him, and your company means he's safe from the Crows.

Dog is
Sten is apparently bound to you via deathwish/honor, so it depends on your knowledge about his code of conduct. Also his main mission appears to be to discover (and eventually changes to end) the Blight.
Oghram, I have no idea, it's more that he's directionless and following you cue, much like Alistair.

You talk to these people, and you find it out, and get to know that.

Morrigan talks about her childhood, and tells you that she's only with you because her mom told her to. I mean, we talk, but she never really touches on what we're doing. There's a lot of discussion initially about her mother, her views on love and such. You never get anything beyond "oh, my mom told me to" as for why she's with you. Then you find out she lied about that. I mean, really now.

We have fellow Grey Warden and hapless fools following us, as well as crazy people who think we're The **** who'll save the world. We have people we're saved (and thus owe us), people who stick with us because we're their protection. We have someone bound to us and on a similiar mission to us, who also become indebted to us at the conclusion of their quest. Then we have Morrigan, who's with us because her mom told her to, for reasons she hid from us.

Why should we trust her so much, with matters of such great consequence? Even the others (other than Dog and Alistair)  may well have other motives. Wynne may be a spy for the Circle, Leliana for the Chantry or Orlais, Zev for the Crows/Antiva. Other than metagame knowledge and emotional attachment in that they're party members and major characters, if it suddenly turns out that Leliana worked for Orlais or the Chantry all along, and then asked you to do something that may save your life but could potentially unleash another Blight, would you?

The most trustworthy ones appear to be Dog, Alistair and I suppose Shale (paralyzed for 30 years?). Perhaps Wynne, because she was supposed to die at Ostagar, and so probably isn't in a conspiracy targetting you.

Edit: Oh, then throw in the facts about Flemeth, and add in some doubt as to if you managed to kill her and if she took over Morrigan, OR don't kill her at all, and now you've got a questionable third party that may completely make the issue of trusting Morrigan (who may cease to exist) moot.

I agree. Morrigan/Flemeth are simply set up from the get go as untrustworthy. You get no straight talk when pushing the issue of their motives. 

Modifié par MassEffect762, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:17 .

[MassEffect762]

Lohe wrote...

I remember Morrigan saying to my dog , and that happens at your camp: "Youre manupalting everyone, but I do so too" (Thats a direct translation from the german version Im playing). So she did say it to the PC, but not directly...its more between the lines. So shes really lying to me? hm.

And strange to me is when playing a female character. Why do she needs me to make their plans true? she could speak to allistair directly instead, because hes the father of the baby at the end. how does that affect me as a women? well. strange things happens in ferelden

She needs your help to convince Alistair since they both don't like one another very much.

And yes that conversation with dog was a sign of her character. Manipulative.

[ChemicalGreen]

First, a random thought that occurred to me while catching up with this thread. A few pages back there was some speculation of the nature of the relationship between the Old Gods and darkspawn. What is known that darkspawn can "hear" the Old Gods and thus are able to look for them. On the other hand, it's also stated that the Old Gods are corrupted by the darkspawn into Archdemons only after they have found the god. So my hypothesis on the issue is that the Old Gods are not singing to darkspawn specifically, it's more of a distress call on all known frequencies, but the only ones able to hear them seem to be the last persons you'd wish for your rescue (the darkspawn).

This would then lead on to the assumption that should you proceed to procreate with Morrigan (one way or the other) that the godling born of said union would also be able to hear this "singing". And mayhaps, be able to find and save the remaining two Old Gods before the darkspawn can get to corrupting them. Thus bringing 3 possible new gods into the world abandoned by the Maker. Ought to rattle a few belief systems, allright.

More on topic of the thread...

The morality of the Dark Ritual is entirely dependant on which point of view you choose to adopt on it. Facts are that by impregnating Morrigan, you basically seal the deal on the Blight. She states when questioned that the child would be a lodestone for the Old God when the dragon form is slain. This could mean it doesn't matter at that point who sticks the God a good one, as long as the corporeal form is mortally wounded, forcing the soul to seek a new vessel. So even if every Grey Warden in Ferelden were to perish during the siege of Denerim, Morrigan still has to auto-win button behind her belly button as long as somebody kills the dragon. Now, if you're a pragmatist like me, this means that Morrigan's going to get some action in Redcliffe in pretty much any playthrough of mine, except the one where I deliberately aim for the achiviements for sacrificing someone else.

Of course, another point of view is the fact that by agreeing to the ritual, you're in fact perpetuating the same "crime" of denying the child the informed consent on getting the taint and consequences thereof that some people are ascribing to Duncan.

We know that Grey Wardens are having issues with fertility, but none of the sources claim that the children themselves are born tainted. I mean, would anyone support Alistair's claim to the throne if this was the case? All the future children of the Theirin bloodline would have the lifetimes of 29 years, give or take. They might as well install revolving door on the throne in that case. This logically leads to the conclusion that the Dark ritual is not just about guaranteeing successful fertilization (as some have (probably) correctly hypothesized), it's also about transferring the taint from the seed to the child. Which probably doesn't sit so well on some people consciences.

Modifié par ChemicalGreen, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:53 .

[eschilde]

We know that Grey Wardens are having issues with fertility, but none of the sources claim that the children themselves are born tainted. I mean, would anyone support Alistair's claim to the throne if this was the case? All the future children of the Theirin bloodline would have the lifetimes of 29 years, give or take. They might as well install revolving door on the throne in that case. This logically leads to the conclusion that the Dark ritual is not just about guaranteeing successful fertilization (as some have (probably) correctly hypothesized), it's also about transferring the taint from the seed to the child. Which probably doesn't sit so well on some people consciences.

My guess is that, like so much about the Grey Wardens, people outside the order don't know about the infertility or the short lifespan. In fact, outside of romancing Alistair, I don't think infertility is even mentioned, so it's possible that the PC may not even know? That said, even if outsiders did know, some would argue it's better to have a king of royal blood on the throne as long as he still has a chance to continue the line; even if Eamon knew about the infertility, I imagine he would still have gone forward with putting Alistair on the throne, especially since Loghain was pretty much a danger to the country at that point and he felt Anora wasn't trustworthy.



Well.. Morrigan says any child she conceives would be receive the taint. I took that to imply that any child conceived by the Grey Wardens would end up that way, but I suppose that's not really addressed in the game, either, at least not as far as I saw. The closest thing I can think of to an example would be the Dryden family, as none of the current descendants appear to have been born with the taint... but it's perfectly conceivable that Sophia only became a Warden after already having children as well, so that's only speculation.

Of course, another point of view is the fact that by agreeing to the ritual, you're in fact perpetuating the same "crime" of denying the child the informed consent on getting the taint and consequences thereof that some people are ascribing to Duncan.

Actually, that would be the issue of having children normally, assuming that they do inherit the taint. The problems of informed consent with demonbaby are completely different, since it's not getting the taint, only Morrigan for a mother :b

[Dermain]

RunCDFirst wrote...

biiskit wrote...

Morrigan explicitly states during the conversation when she makes her offer that she got the ritual from Flemeth and that this was why Flemeth sent her with you. I can't imagine any reason why Flemeth would wait until the very last minute to explain the plan to Morrigan but it's true I can't think of any proof that she didn't.

I thought it was implied, maybe I missed a dialogue option.

At any rate, why go through the whole song and dance of being surprised she's going with them? I think this is just demonstrating that there really is no way to trust anything Morrigan or Flemeth say to you.

If you speak to Flemeth before you leave her hut for Lothering(not likely I assume), one of the conversation chains will lead to Morrigan saying something sarcastic to Flemeth. Flemeth will then respond with the line "This is what I get for taking care of you for all of these years? Bah! I hope your child treats you the same!"

This implies that Morrigan already knows about the ritual. I also believe that, if you are romancing Morrigan, when she refuses to sleep with you, she knows about the ritual. As she says something along the lines of "It would make things easier if we are not together".

Flemeth also makes a comment when you go to kill(or not kill) her about how Morrigan has tried to kill her off before. Also, if you spoke to Flemeth before leaving her hut for Lothering, Morrigan will eventually say "I hear the peace of the grave is eternal."(which is the comment that will lead into the line about a child mentioned above).

My only real problem with the ritual is not knowing what exactly Morrigan is going to do with the child. Why would Flemeth(and Morrigan) want a child with the soul of an old god? Morrigan that it will be a symbol for mages outside of the Chantry(or something like that, please correct me if I'm wrong), but why would they need a symbol?

Dark83 wrote...

Morrigan talks about her
childhood, and tells you that she's only with you because her mom told
her to. I mean, we talk, but she never really touches on what we're
doing. There's a lot of discussion initially about her mother, her
views on love and such. You never get anything beyond "oh, my mom told
me to" as for why she's with you. Then you find out she lied about
that. I mean, really now.

Yet it was Flemeth that taught her the ritual, and sent her along so she could preform the ritual, so wouldn't that still qualify under the "My mother told me to go with you" thing?

Modifié par Myrkale, 04 décembre 2009 - 06:36 .

[Dark83]

ChemicalGreen wrote...

The morality of the Dark Ritual is entirely dependant on which point of view you choose to adopt on it. Facts are that by impregnating Morrigan, you basically seal the deal on the Blight. She states when questioned that the child would be a lodestone for the Old God when the dragon form is slain. This could mean it doesn't matter at that point who sticks the God a good one, as long as the corporeal form is mortally wounded, forcing the soul to seek a new vessel. So even if every Grey Warden in Ferelden were to perish during the siege of Denerim, Morrigan still has to auto-win button behind her belly button as long as somebody kills the dragon. Now, if you're a pragmatist like me, this means that Morrigan's going to get some action in Redcliffe in pretty much any playthrough of mine, except the one where I deliberately aim for the achiviements for sacrificing someone else.

That's a short-term view, though. You're now 100% certain of ending this Blight so long as somebody manages to kill it, but now you've got a completely unknown issue, and potentially an extra Blight. That would mean it depends on how confident you are you can kill it. Given that I'm invincible , and already killed two dragons and a crazy lich-thing, I'd be confident I could take it out (which we of course do) and prevent a potential 3rd Blight after this one.

[Dark83]

Myrkale wrote...

Yet it was Flemeth that taught her the ritual, and sent her along so she could preform the ritual, so wouldn't that still qualify under the "My mother told me to go with you" thing?

So basically she's misleading you without outright lying. Which... still shouldn't make anyone more inclined to trust her.

Try telling your girlfriend "Technically I didn't lie..."

[Silensfurtim]

In my first playthrough, my first impression of Morrigan is that shes an NPC that you would ditch somewhere in the middle of the game. Just like Yoshimo in Baldur's Gate 2.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ChemicalGreen wrote...

First, a random thought that occurred to me while catching up with this thread. A few pages back there was some speculation of the nature of the relationship between the Old Gods and darkspawn. What is known that darkspawn can "hear" the Old Gods and thus are able to look for them. On the other hand, it's also stated that the Old Gods are corrupted by the darkspawn into Archdemons only after they have found the god. So my hypothesis on the issue is that the Old Gods are not singing to darkspawn specifically, it's more of a distress call on all known frequencies, but the only ones able to hear them seem to be the last persons you'd wish for your rescue (the darkspawn).

This would then lead on to the assumption that should you proceed to procreate with Morrigan (one way or the other) that the godling born of said union would also be able to hear this "singing". And mayhaps, be able to find and save the remaining two Old Gods before the darkspawn can get to corrupting them. Thus bringing 3 possible new gods into the world abandoned by the Maker. Ought to rattle a few belief systems, allright.

Interesting theory, and it IS in the realm of ppossible, but completely unsupported.
The Old God COULD be good, but I find that unlikely.

The morality of the Dark Ritual is entirely dependant on which point of view you choose to adopt on it.

Not really. It doesn't really change.

[Iam2ugly]

I think there is more. I am actually on my 2nd play and i went to kill Flemeth. And well... I get the impression, that she knew what will become. And how she talked about Morrigan(About the dance).So I am thinking that Morrigan initialy was sent do manipulate PC. To do what she is told to do. Perform the dark ritual(?) But... I think that Morrigan is the one manipulated. By her mother. Everything, Grimuar, and all these things about possesing her, was a set up by Flemeth. So she can posses the Old God. But this theory implies more question, and more... I'm sick of thinking about it ;P makes my head hurts :S

[Lotion Soronarr]

Thorrior wrote...
Am I to just kill myself off and leave the Grey Wardens in Ferelden extinct? This would undo everything Duncan fought for. Even if Riordan didn't die prior to slaying the Archdemon, that is still two Grey Wardens left in the kingdom, which is far more effective than one or none.

So? They will rebuild. There are grey wardens all over TheDas. Tehy will come. There weren't any Grey Wardens in Ferelden for years, before Maric let them back in. Did this doom the Grey Wardens? No.

Slaying the Archdemon is not going to get rid of the thousands of darkspawn still roaming around on the surface. Feralden needs a champion, not a matyr. I'm a young, hardened, skilled warrior and a capable leader. The Grey Wardens are not bound by a code as strict as one might seem to think. A Grey Warden dies with the Archdemon, because that is the only way they've known to ever be able to kill it. But Grey Wardens are practical and inventive. If a Grey Warden can survive slaying the Archdemon, and be of further use to the order and to Thedas, the Grey Warden will choose to live.

The job of a Grey Warden is to stop the Blight. Aside from that, your'e very replacable. The darkspawn, the regular monsters - the armies and generals can deal with that. The GW's are only needed to slay the Archdemon.

The entire point of this game is not to look at the story in black and white. Bioware named them Grey Wardens for a reason. Grey, that's the color they see the world in.

And you know that how exaclty? Mayhaps that just they way your character seez the world. Applying that to all the Grey Warden does not compute.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 décembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

marshalleck wrote...

What makes you think your conventional definition of "good" influence is appropriate for an Old God? She needs to teach the child how to control its power and survive as an apostate, not understand table manners or the subtle intrigue of politcal games between noble families.

Besides, Morrigan is *not* Flemeth. The writers went to great lengths to reveal that Morrigan is very much human, and not a monstrous parasite like her mother. Is Morrigan to be indicted for Flemeth's crimes? "Sins of the father" much?

The second you get philosophical about the nature of "good" and "evil" you loose. Don't even get into that. Nobody cares.

Point is, that child is your baby, and Morrigan certanly isn't a motherly figure or a good influence. She is not trustworthy. Stop thinking with your d***.

Let me repeat that. YOUR CHILD. With Morrigan. With "Connor kid is a moron, kill it" Morrigan. With "All in the circle are morons, let the abominations/templars get them. Including the kiddies" Morrigan. Morigan doesn't hvae an alturistic bone in her body. Probably because of her upbriinging, but still.

How anyone can consider this good is beyond me. Child services would like to have a word with you.

So yeah. The ritual is a selfish, shortsighted and moronic decision. Delude yourself that it's something else if you want, but the evidence speeks agaisnt you on this one.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 décembre 2009 - 07:54 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Taleroth wrote...
 I just think skipping time periods would be nice because of opportunities to experiment with varying settings and inherent things in those.  Like steampunk.  Or just guns and gadgets.

NO...NOOOOO.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lohe wrote...

I remember Morrigan saying to my dog , and that happens at your camp: "Youre manipulating everyone, but I do so too" (Thats a direct translation from the german version Im playing). So she did say it to the PC, but not directly...its more between the lines. So shes really lying to me? hm.

You forget her little talk about the caravan and how men are allways willing to belive that a pretty woman fancies them..the fools.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The morality of the Dark Ritual is entirely dependant on which point of view you choose to adopt on it.

Not really. It doesn't really change.

Of course it does.

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

What makes you think your conventional definition of "good" influence is appropriate for an Old God? She needs to teach the child how to control its power and survive as an apostate, not understand table manners or the subtle intrigue of politcal games between noble families.

Besides, Morrigan is *not* Flemeth. The writers went to great lengths to reveal that Morrigan is very much human, and not a monstrous parasite like her mother. Is Morrigan to be indicted for Flemeth's crimes? "Sins of the father" much?

The second you get philosophical about the nature of "good" and "evil" you loose. Don't even get into that. Nobody cares.

Point is, that child is your baby, and Morrigan certanly isn't a motherly figure or a good influence. She is not trustworthy. Stop thinking with your d***.

Let me repeat that. YOUR CHILD. With Morrigan. With "Connor kid is a moron, kill it" Morrigan. With "All in the circle are morons, let the abominations/templars get them. Including the kiddies" Morrigan. Morigan doesn't hvae an alturistic bone in her body. Probably because of her upbriinging, but still.

How anyone can consider this good is beyond me. Child services would like to have a word with you.

So yeah. The ritual is a selfish, shortsighted and moronic decision. Delude yourself that it's something else if you want, but the evidence speeks agaisnt you on this one.

sure guy

am I supposed to take this seriously?

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 décembre 2009 - 08:31 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The morality of the Dark Ritual is entirely dependant on which point of view you choose to adopt on it.

Not really. It doesn't really change.

Of course it does.

Only if you define morality as "Whatever I feel like it".

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The morality of the Dark Ritual is entirely dependant on which point of view you choose to adopt on it.

Not really. It doesn't really change.

Of course it does.

Only if you define morality as "Whatever I feel like it".

Oh, should I define it as "whatever YOU feel like it"?

[Allattar1]

Lotion, please stop and think before replying, and take deep breaths.

Morality is whatever society defines it. Morality is an area that changes over time, with the views of that soceity.



For instance, in certain Greek cultures in ancient greece it was perfectly morally right for Men to have younger male boy lovers, and wives. Treat the wives as basically possessions for creating children and their real love was their boy.



Zip forward by a few thousand years or so and being gay is morally unacceptable, and considered deeply sinful, zip forward to the year 2009 and being gay can have a stigma attached to it but is more morally acceptable in some areas of society.



That is just one aspect.

You are going over the top with responses, and everything you post as "Confirmed fact" is pretty much just your opinion.



I want someone to come in here and say stop to you with some knowledge becuase you are taking this way to personally. You are tied up in your own belief and constructed various fallacies of logical argument to do so, you have strawmen in every post, and so many false dilemma's that its not funny any more.



I think we understand how you feel, some of us are a little more open and understand the way the story is going.

As said before everything in this game is Grey, not black and white. Your reading it completely black and white. I actually think I feel sorry for you becuase of it.



This is not meant to be an attack, just a, please stop and calm down.

[Allattar1]

Now for everyone else.



This thread is getting too wrapped up in finding answers, I think the questions are more interesting.



Why does Morrigan even make the offer of the ritual?. In some games she has been with the Warden for a while, certainly for male wardens it may not be too much of an issue of just seducing the pc. Or even using magic to seduce Alistair, the fact she comes right out and makes the offer is interesting in what it reveals. Certainly the easier and more duplicitous route is sleep with a Warden and dont say why. (Of course it may be harder to explain what happens game wise in the plot when both Wardens live ) Or even just seduce Riordan.



Why does Morrigan run away if the offer is not taken?

This one is again interesting in itself. is it hurt pride, is it frustration, is it feeling betrayed, or bearing in mind how pragmatic Morrigan is is it something else.

I feel it is something else.

Perhaps it could easily be that she was going to provide a vessel for the old gods soul all along. After the Warden and the Archdemons die together, the archdemons soul is cleansed? where does the old gods soul go after? back to the fade? what if another vessel is prepared?

but that is providing an answer, and the questions are more interesting.



Why does Morrigan have to hide with the child?

The answer to this though is obvious.



Just a few questions and there are more.

[Allattar1]

The question I forgot.



When where and how did Morrigan learn of the dark ritual?

It seems at the beginning she is every bit as much in the dark as everyone else is...

Is this evidence that she is no longer herself?

Anyone else decide after killing Flemeth that giving Morrigan the "Robes of Possession" restrictions Morrigan -% willpower, was just tempting fate? No Morrigan we only found this book... nothing else.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Allattar1 wrote...

The question I forgot.

When where and how did Morrigan learn of the dark ritual?
It seems at the beginning she is every bit as much in the dark as everyone else is...
Is this evidence that she is no longer herself?
Anyone else decide after killing Flemeth that giving Morrigan the "Robes of Possession" restrictions Morrigan -% willpower, was just tempting fate? No Morrigan we only found this book... nothing else.

The robes were very suspicious for sure, but it seems they do not affect the game in any way - no matter if you take it, leave it or destroy it.
As for Morrigan - I doubt that she was possessed for two reasons, bot IC and OOC:
1) IC, she did act like Morrigan. That's a bit uncertain, but still...
2) OOC, I cannot believe they are going to throw away their best character.