1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Jhourney]

So tell me again what's keeping me from say, keeping both of Flemeth's grimoires instead of giving them to Morrigan, and then perform the ritual myself with Alistair hmm? I mean Flemeth happily wrote about possessing her daughters in her grimoire, I'm sure the Dark Ritual would be described somewhere as well. I could imagine my Grey Warden mage browsing through the grimoires at camp, curious little thing as she is and then remembering the ritual after the talk with Riordan. Just a thought, seeing as we're talking about being selfish anyway

Modifié par Jhosephine, 04 décembre 2009 - 09:33 .

[TheDrunkenPanda]

You know what I find curious? It seems for the last...well, for a last lots of pages, people have been viewing the decision with their own moral compass, not of the moral compass (or lack thereof) of the character they were playing.



Like I said way at the beginning of the thread, my PC (most of them, actually) was a pragmatist and he had no idea if any of the three Grey Wardens would make it to the Archdemon alive to deliver face stabbings. So, he looked at his options, and opted to plan for the worst (all three Wardens dying) and hope for the best (none of them dying).



For my PC, the decision wasn't about right or wrong, if the Old God deserved to be preserved or not, or even Morrigan's trustworthiness (is that even a word?), but what would give him the greatest chance to end the Blight the following day.



Perhaps it was short sighted, but my PC was willing to face the consequences of his decision should they return to haunt him. That is one thing I like about this game, you can play your character with flaws, play a character that is a human, well, a person, that is. Not a paladin who can do no wrong, or heartless, baby eating monster, but a person who was thrown into a pretty shoddy situation and had to make due with the facts and material he/she could obtain.



Would I, as the player, the person, make that decision? I cannot say, maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. I've never been in a situation where it was either 'give Woman A a God-Baby' or 'die and not save the cheerleader but save the world', nor do I hope to ever been in such a situation. But yeah, that was the reasoning of my PC when the decision was made.



Now I'm playing a guy who does the right thing no matter what, so obviously he isn't going to do the horizontal God-Baby-Making-Tango with Morrigan, but, he does have Loghain to toss at the Archdemon, so...



That said, I'll leave with this:



Frodo: I wish the ring never came to me.



Gandalf: So do all who have carried its burden, but that is not for us to decide. All there is to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.

[marshalleck]

I can answer that Jhosephine. If you take Morrigan to the Tower and talk with her, she will say she remembers a grimoire of her mother's. This is the first grimoire, not the one you get from Flemeth herself. If you ask why you need her help with it she will talk about knowing Flemeth's wards, the language the tome is written in, familiarity with Flemeth's particular style of wilder magic which a PC mage is not trained in...whether she is telling the truth about that is certainly open for debate, but there must be some element of truth to her words since a PC mage can't use either grimoire.

[Jhourney]

marshalleck wrote...

I can answer that Jhosephine. If you take Morrigan to the Tower and talk with her, she will say she remembers a grimoire of her mother's. This is the first grimoire, not the one you get from Flemeth herself. If you ask why you need her help with it she will talk about knowing Flemeth's wards, the language the tome is written in, familiarity with Flemeth's particular style of wilder magic which a PC mage is not trained in...whether she is telling the truth about that is certainly open for debate, but there must be some element of truth to her words since a PC mage can't use either grimoire.

Ah pity, pity indeed. I'll have to chat up Morrigan a bit more on my next playthrough, missed that. Thank you

[marshalleck]

As for the other hows and whys of Morrigan and Flemeth. I think it's pretty obvious that Morrigan knew the following:

Go with the wardens and seduce one of them, using the dark ritual.

After performing the ritual and ahem..."securing" godbaby, Morrigan was to return to the swamp, where Flemeth would have presented her with the special robes and taken possession of her body and proceeded to birth and raise godbaby herself, BUT...

When the PC takes Morrigan along to the tower, or presents Morrigan with the grimoire from there, she begins to piece together the rest of Flemeth's plan for the old god. The rest plays out as normal, with the grimoire not containing all the knowledge she needs AND realizing that Flemeth was out to get her, etc.

I'm still pretty much clueless as to the actual purpose of all this. I'm left thinking she's actually telling the truth...she just wants to bring a purified Old God back into the world for the sake of liberating an ancient and powerful entity, whereas Flemeth would have somehow used it for her own ends. I dunno. /shrug

I do think that Morrigan's plan for godbaby differs drastically from that of Flemeth's.

Ugh. I feel like the clues are there, I just lack the proper perspective on them.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 décembre 2009 - 10:06 .

[marshalleck]

Jhosephine wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I can answer that Jhosephine. If you take Morrigan to the Tower and talk with her, she will say she remembers a grimoire of her mother's. This is the first grimoire, not the one you get from Flemeth herself. If you ask why you need her help with it she will talk about knowing Flemeth's wards, the language the tome is written in, familiarity with Flemeth's particular style of wilder magic which a PC mage is not trained in...whether she is telling the truth about that is certainly open for debate, but there must be some element of truth to her words since a PC mage can't use either grimoire.

Ah pity, pity indeed. I'll have to chat up Morrigan a bit more on my next playthrough, missed that. Thank you

The key is to take her to the Tower for that conversation, I think. For my first game, I never took Morrigan there and she never said anything about any grimoires at all until I brought her the one from the Tower and initiated her quest line that way.

[TheDrunkenPanda]

If I recall correctly, you don't even have to take Morrigan to the tower, just talk to her after you finished the tower.

[Alex Savchovsky]

marshalleck wrote...

I'm still pretty much clueless as to the actual purpose of all this. I'm left thinking she's actually telling the truth...she just wants to bring a purified Old God back into the world for the sake of liberating an ancient and powerful entity, whereas Flemeth would have somehow used it for her own ends. I dunno. /shrug

I do think that Morrigan's plan for godbaby differs drastically from that of Flemeth's.

Ugh. I feel like the clues are there, I just lack the proper perspective on them.

Probably we should read more about the Old Gods to figure that out.

[Fyrgarth]

Well isn´t it beautiful how BIOWARE always shove the hard decisions into our faces ? Compliment on that. I love the game to bits. Personally i went the sacrifice route. I felt that too much of that what was unsaid did trouble me.



On the other hand, isn´t it funny how Morrigan actually never lied to your character ? She always was very open about her opinion and motiviations. Actually I found it quite appealing, that she didn´t try to cheese me in that situation.



She could have gone a completely other route. The

"You might die tomorrow, my dear. I can´t stand the thought of you dying. Now taht things come to an possible tragic end I realize, now that it is too late, that I love you. Shall we be together one last time? Hold me.... You are the only one I ever loved. Thank you for showing me that love really does exist....."



Who would have decided to let her down, if she had approached you in such a fashion ? Few would have, I am sure, even if actually dating Leilianna. She can be convincing and soft and vulnerable. She has shown that before.



But she does prefer not to lie to you. She has always been an honest soul and I deeply respect and appreciate that. Nonetheless I really had trouble giving in to her offer. There was too much, that not was said, that I just wouldn´t want to be responsible for.



In the end, it was Wynne who helped me. We all die. It is inevitable. If 30 Years earlier or later. If you look back with hindsight and are content and at peace with your life. You are possible ready to go. That in mind, i refused Morrigan.



The tragedy and sadness of the whole story affected me deeply. Well done, BIOWARE. Thanks for many hours full of joy.

[Fyrgarth]

double post

Modifié par Fyrgarth, 04 décembre 2009 - 10:55 .

[Krigwin]

marshalleck wrote...

I can answer that Jhosephine. If you take Morrigan to the Tower and talk with her, she will say she remembers a grimoire of her mother's. This is the first grimoire, not the one you get from Flemeth herself. If you ask why you need her help with it she will talk about knowing Flemeth's wards, the language the tome is written in, familiarity with Flemeth's particular style of wilder magic which a PC mage is not trained in...whether she is telling the truth about that is certainly open for debate, but there must be some element of truth to her words since a PC mage can't use either grimoire.

I didn't know about that. What does happen if you, as a mage PC, inspect the tome? I always got the feeling that your PC just got the tome and, without even looking at it, loyally handed it over.

If indeed, as even a mage, you cannot make heads or tails of the tome then it certainly lends credence to the theory that it actually is a tome of old magic and not just a book of herbal recipes or something written in a different language that Morrigan is using to play you with.

[ChemicalGreen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Interesting theory, and it IS in the realm of ppossible, but completely unsupported.
The Old God COULD be good, but I find that unlikely.

Ah, but where did I say the Old God(s) would be good? I merely said that the absent Maker would be quite... challenged with 1-3 uncorrupted Old Gods suddenly swaggering about. Then again, how is that a bad thing, I don't know. The Chantry has less than stellar reputation, and there's a few points where I happen to disagree with them. (Policy on apostates and the circle of Magi being near the top of the list.) Gods or shoes, more options the better and the comparison shopper always wins!

ChemicalGreen wrote...
The morality of the Dark Ritual is entirely dependant on which point of view you choose to adopt on it.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not really. It doesn't really change.

Dead horse, I promise ye that I shall stop beating ye... soon. But shades of grey, they really exist. Lets agree to disagree on that count.

[edeheusch]

For me (and my character) the choice was not really complicated.

For a City Elf something is really wrong in Thedas. You can see it from your origin when Vaughan was never pursued for kidnapping, raping and killing elves but you were condemned to gallows when you did anything against him. Afterward you discovered that Loghain sold your people to Tevinder slavers. In addition the Chantry tries to impose the human god (the Maker) to everybody else and they conquered the Dales because the Elves worshiped the Elvish gods. Even if the Grey Wardens are supposed to be neutral, it seems nearly impossible for an Elf not to want to change something.



I didn’t know what would be the real effect of releasing an old god on the world but the situation could hardly be worse and I see the old god as an alternative to the Maker (it is not a Elvish god but it is better than nothing).



In addition, if I am alive after the end of the Blight, I will have earned enough influence to improve the Elves situation in Ferelden (especially if my good friend Alistair is the king). And it happened to be true as I were able to ask for an Arl for the Alienage.



So yes for my character it was a trivial choice (and not so selfish).

[Lotion Soronarr]

ChemicalGreen wrote...
Ah, but where did I say the Old God(s) would be good? I merely said that the absent Maker would be quite... challenged with 1-3 uncorrupted Old Gods suddenly swaggering about.

Dunno about that. I mean all 7 of them were imprisioned before, doesn't look challenging for the Maker to do it again.



But I'm not talking about your charactes take on the choice. Depending on personality and beliefs that characters has, it can vary greatly. Each character can justify his action differently. But that's not the point. Humans are very good at jsutifiying anything. Even genoiced.

My point is that a decision can be  analyzed as smart/stupid based on concrete knowledge. On probability. On cost/benefit/risk analysis.
These thigns are hardly subjective.

And the ritual option ends up as a less sensible choice if you give it enough thought.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

My point is that a decision can be  analyzed as smart/stupid based on concrete knowledge. On probability. On cost/benefit/risk analysis.
These thigns are hardly subjective.

And the ritual option ends up as a less sensible choice if you give it enough thought.

Since some of the most important parts of that knowledge are subjective (whether or not to trust Morrigan, for example), it is hardly possible to get a conclusion that is not subjective. 

[ChemicalGreen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dunno about that. I mean all 7 of them were imprisioned before, doesn't look challenging for the Maker to do it again.



But I'm not talking about your charactes take on the choice. Depending on personality and beliefs that characters has, it can vary greatly. Each character can justify his action differently. But that's not the point. Humans are very good at jsutifiying anything. Even genoiced.

My point is that a decision can be  analyzed as smart/stupid based on concrete knowledge. On probability. On cost/benefit/risk analysis.
These thigns are hardly subjective.

And the ritual option ends up as a less sensible choice if you give it enough thought.

True, the Old Gods were imprisoned by the Maker, even if I personally take the Chantry's history writing (or editing, ha!) with a pinch of salt. But the Maker is _absent_, he has abondoned his believers.... You know what they say about mice when the cat's away.

And as for probability... Even that is on my side. Let's roll with your suppposition that demonbaby turns into demonadult and brings on Blight 5.5, since I assume that particular problem would rear it's ugly head within 15-20 years of the events seen in game. In this case scenario (human noble female origins), that would have meant 15-20 years with 2 Grey Wardens on the throne, uniting nobility, buttering up allies and inducting new Wardens en masse. I've killed dragons, broodmother, even an arch demon. With some stout allies by my side, commanding some proper armies and posibbly a reunion with an old friend old three... no reason to assume that uppity little demon bastard can't be dealt with, decicively. Even if you want play with other origin opportunities, there's always at least one Grey Warden who'll be in position to advise the ruling monarch, no matter what you choose, as long as someone gives Morrigan the goods, so to speak.

[Allattar1]

Plus if you want to play the risk analysis card.

When analysing risk for lets say a car. Or even something like a car windscreen.

You sit down you know the process of making windscreen, the physics and chemistry of glass, you can run some test on the glass. Meaning that you can work out the risks associated with windscreen breaking whilst driving.



Now lets take Morrigans baby, you have no idea about the magic involved. Absolutely none, its in a fictional world, where the rules are quite different to our own. You can only guess at the rules or reasoning behind the magic. You have only a shady idea about the Morrigan.



Honestly its not even a risk analysis, you dont know anything about the process of making god babies.



Its more like making a risk analysis of a completely unknown system. Its like someone turning round to you and saying, see that alien spaceship parked over there, whats the risk it will crash.

Then not telling you anything else about said ship, no idea how it will be used, its name, its speed, power, what powers it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

My point is that a decision can be  analyzed as smart/stupid based on concrete knowledge. On probability. On cost/benefit/risk analysis.
These thigns are hardly subjective.

And the ritual option ends up as a less sensible choice if you give it enough thought.

Since some of the most important parts of that knowledge are subjective (whether or not to trust Morrigan, for example), it is hardly possible to get a conclusion that is not subjective. 

Which is why such things are entered into the equations as such - unknowns.

Knowing that you dont' know if X is the truth is powerfull knowledge in itself.

[Layn]

to me it was not selfish at all.
My Wardens friendship with Morrigan was strong and it might be naive but i felt like morrigan was honest that she doesn't intend anything bad. i respect her and let her leave in hope that she won't forget her friends.
As was said, there was no knowing how it would end, if there would be any grey wardens at the end. With the ritual i increased the chances at success and ensured that Ferelden would both have their new King and also a Queen who at the same time is practically the last grey warden fighting for ferelden.

Will the god-baby grow into an evil god-person? Maybe, but at least the warden knows about it and will be there to fight it if necessary. And if the warden should die before she will be able to tell others about the god baby.

i admit, i felt a knot in my stomach as soon as the ritual started. it would be something that would haunt the warden forever, but it still feels like the right decision

Modifié par Crrash, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:34 .

[Alarna]

ChemicalGreen wrote...


True, the Old Gods were imprisoned by the Maker, even if I personally take the Chantry's history writing (or editing, ha!) with a pinch of salt. But the Maker is _absent_, he has abondoned his believers.... You know what they say about mice when the cat's away.

Dragonlance: It was said that the gods have abandoned their believers, but truth is, that they didn't. If you talk to Leliana she told you the same. The maker is already there.
What do you think, would he like it if you do a ritaul and free a god, he himself had banned?

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

My point is that a decision can be  analyzed as smart/stupid based on concrete knowledge. On probability. On cost/benefit/risk analysis.
These thigns are hardly subjective.

And the ritual option ends up as a less sensible choice if you give it enough thought.

Since some of the most important parts of that knowledge are subjective (whether or not to trust Morrigan, for example), it is hardly possible to get a conclusion that is not subjective. 

Which is why such things are entered into the equations as such - unknowns.

Knowing that you dont' know if X is the truth is powerfull knowledge in itself.

Yes, but if you consider them real unknowns, you will never be able to make any decision. You cannot solve an equation in format x+y = 10. 
So you assign them the most probable values - which are again subjective.

[Allattar1]

Forget it Alex, make your arguments for everyone else, but Lotion is always going to be arguing on the side of Morrgian the evil female dog, and the ritual is the worst thing to happen since the Tevinter mages assaulted the golden city.



Do not try and convince Lotion, but put forward views that help others to keep an open mind.

The questions raised by the ritual are the important things here, not our subjective arguing over the answers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

And as for probability... Even that is on my side. Let's roll with your suppposition that demonbaby turns into demonadult and brings on Blight 5.5, since I assume that particular problem would rear it's ugly head within 15-20 years of the events seen in game. In this case scenario (human noble female origins), that would have meant 15-20 years with 2 Grey Wardens on the throne, uniting nobility, buttering up allies and inducting new Wardens en masse. I've killed dragons, broodmother, even an arch demon. With some stout allies by my side, commanding some proper armies and posibbly a reunion with an old friend old three... no reason to assume that uppity little demon bastard can't be dealt with, decicively. Even if you want play with other origin opportunities, there's always at least one Grey Warden who'll be in position to advise the ruling monarch, no matter what you choose, as long as someone gives Morrigan the goods, so to speak.

Yes, very possible that if the Old God raises again (the demonbaby) you will defeat it. The problem is how many people will die before you do.

So between the option of killing the archdemon now and avoiding any further death, and posibly releasing it so it kills hunderds, if not thousands before you finally destroy it. Which option is better for the people of Ferelden?

So you gamble with the lives of other pople, the people you're supposed to protect, when a renevew blight is a possible event. GodChild being benevolent, your ally and working agaisnt the blight? It may happen, but you really got nothing that confirms this is even possible. Heck, Gandalf the White might ride into town to save the day...It is possible (if hte devs decide a crossover).

Both Morrigan and the GodChild are two very big unknowns. Betting peoples lives on them is not smart.

[Allattar1]

And you have nothing that proves your point of view either lotion.



Same rhetoric, let people have there own views man.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
Yes, but if you consider them real unknowns, you will never be able to make any decision. You cannot solve an equation in format x+y = 10. 
So you assign them the most probable values - which are again subjective.

Except that's not the equation.

It's farely simple. Morrigan is an unknown (no, not the incarnation of evil, she does haev her good traits).


On one side you have a proven method of stopping the blight. GUARANTEED to end it

On the other you have a suspicious ritual that might save your life (you've got no proof that it will work or that it has ever been done before) that involves your baby and and archdemon who's sould will posess your kid. Morrigan sez the child will not be harmed, but given that she has no regard for children (clearly shown trought the game) that is questionable, especially since she downright refuses to explain herself and her actions any further. Let's not forget  - your baby...and she refuses to explain yourself. Based on teh game lore that demon-baby may or may not be dangerous...but given the oldGod/archedemon behavior trought the game, which is more likely?


So basicly, you're giving your child to a woman you really don't know that much about, is showing little empathy and no alturism, in a ritual you know virtually nothing about except what very little she tells you, and , who upon further probing outright refuses to explain what she actually wants to do with your child, and who is whown to be, and admits herself, to be very manipulative.
All of that for a vauge promise that it  will end good, which is again, supported by no evidence whatsoever, and has chances of ruining everything you worked for so far.

So yeah. Thing with smart decision is that you stick to the known facts, not things you'd like to be true. And the above is a perfect exaple of thinking with ones d****.
I actually liked Morrigan, but didn't trust her enough. Even if Leliana, whom my character did trust completely, made the same offer, I'd decline again.

ADDENDUM:
You as a Grey Warden have no guarantees you will be alive in 0 years to stop the next blight. Maybe you get run over by a bas. Or fall ill. Or slip inthe bathroom and snap your neck. Making plans that involve you being alive 20 years in the future to stop the avalanche you deliberately unleash today is not actually smart either.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:58 .