1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Allattar1 wrote...

And you have nothing that proves your point of view either lotion.

Same rhetoric, let people have there own views man.

You mean besides pure logic?

Or do you assume if another blight starts that absolutely no one will die? That you will find Morrigan and the child the second it becomes corrupted?

Logic dictates that you can't stop something you don' even know ti's there. And by the time you find out another blight is starting, people will have already died.


***

That said, something occured to me.

If you don't give Morrigan neither of the 2 books..does she propose the ritual?

[Imryll]

TheDrunkenPanda wrote...

For my PC, the decision wasn't about right or wrong, if the Old God deserved to be preserved or not, or even Morrigan's trustworthiness (is that even a word?), but what would give him the greatest chance to end the Blight the following day.

Perhaps it was short sighted, but my PC was willing to face the consequences of his decision should they return to haunt him. That is one thing I like about this game, you can play your character with flaws, play a character that is a human, well, a person, that is. Not a paladin who can do no wrong, or heartless, baby eating monster, but a person who was thrown into a pretty shoddy situation and had to make due with the facts and material he/she could obtain.

An interesting take ... not an approach that would work for either of my current characters, but a workable motivation.

An added wrinkle to the situation is that if the PC is female, Alistair would have to father the child.  If Alastair is to be king--and Grey Warden conception is as unlikely as he claims--this old God could well be heir to the Throne of Ferelden, offering additional scope for mischief-making. This seems particularly likely if Alastair marries either the PC or Anora.  After all, Anora was married to Cailan for five years without issue ...

[Herr Uhl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That said, something occured to me.

If you don't give Morrigan neither of the 2 books..does she propose the ritual?

It was the point that she was sent to you. She would be unaware that Flemeth was going to take her body though.

[Allattar1]

As I have said Lotion your logic is flawed and fawlty, and consists of fallacies.

No point discussing it further until you realise that.

[037686]

So I take it that all of those who feel the ritual is too risky also destroyed the mages in the Circle tower?



If not, why not? The same logic you apply to the unknown risks of the ritual apply to the mages: namely, they may have been converted to Blood Mages. They may have dorment demons inside them.



Secondly, on the issue of damaging the unborn baby's soul: my understanding is that this is not possible. If the baby already HAD a soul, both it and the Old God would be destroyed, exactly as happens when a Grey Warden kills the Archdemon. The only reason that the Old God soul can rest in the developing baby is that there is no soul to contest the body. It is for exactly the same reason that the Archdemon can reincarnate inside a Darkspawn - there is no soul to contest the body.



The lore as revealed in the game seems to indicate that the only beings who can reside in another's body are demons, via possession. Flemeth is able to body-snatch because she merged her soul with that of the demon she came into contact with, thus enabling her to engage in the same body-possession demons are able to indulge in. Morrigan has no such ability, because as a full human, an attempt to share the body of another living being would destroy her.



This is given further weight when you consider what happens to Flemeth when you "kill" her. Morrigan states that she will be back, and isn't actually dead. It seems likely that she has returned to the Fade, as would happen when any other demon is slain. Again, this is due to the nature of what Flemeth has become. Flemeth is no longer human, and is able to do many things that Morrigan is simply not able to.

[Allattar1]

Sod it. heres the list I comprised for Lotion anyway.

Strawman
The god baby can be corrupted, therefore if darkspawn find it they will corrupt it and create another archdemon.
Solution: dont create god baby.
No where is there any suggestion that the child with the old god soul can be corrupted.

Strawman
Morrigan is in it for her self.
It is very strongly hinted at that she is not, in fact if played in a certain way, she states where it not for her duty, things could be different between the pc and Morrigan.

False dilemma
Either sacrifice and end blight, or create god baby to save yourself leading to a new blight in the future.


I could argue
Denying the antecedent
Sacrificing yourself ends the blight, by not sacrificing yourself then the archdemon soul must continue and thus the blight.

False cause
The Archdemons soul going into the child at conception is destroying the baby. Baby murder.
It is stated that there is no soul in the child at conception, the archdemon soul becomes the soul of the child.

Irrelevant conclusion
I dont know what Morrigan is up to, I dont know her plan for the god baby, therefore it must be risky, and therefore a danger to all


All your statements are not facts, they are logical, just logical fallacies.

The first thing we must do here is admit we do not know!

Modifié par Allattar1, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:41 .

[Taleroth]

037686 wrote...

So I take it that all of those who feel the ritual is too risky also destroyed the mages in the Circle tower?

If not, why not? The same logic you apply to the unknown risks of the ritual apply to the mages: namely, they may have been converted to Blood Mages. They may have dorment demons inside them.

Probably should kill the Werewolves, too.  If they revert human, you might end up with more rapists running around.  It's a total unknown.  And we have a proven method of keeping them from raping and murdering elves.

Simple logic.

Modifié par Taleroth, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:40 .

[Herr Uhl]

Taleroth wrote...

037686 wrote...

So I take it that all of those who feel the ritual is too risky also destroyed the mages in the Circle tower?

If not, why not? The same logic you apply to the unknown risks of the ritual apply to the mages: namely, they may have been converted to Blood Mages. They may have dorment demons inside them.

Probably should kill the Werewolves, too.  If they revert human, you might end up with more rapists running around.  It's a total unknown.  And we have a proven method of keeping them from raping and murdering elves.

Simple logic.

Kill everybody. That is the easiest way to see that nobody does anything wrong. All living things can act as conduits for demons, so it would be necessary to extinguish all life. Then we would be safe from risks.

[eschilde]

Kill everybody. That is the easiest way to see that nobody does anything wrong. All living things can act as conduits for demons, so it would be necessary to extinguish all life. Then we would be safe from risks.

Well, if that's the case you could just leave the Archdemon alive.. dirty work accomplished for you, go slack off somewhere else in the meantime ^^

[Herr Uhl]

eschilde wrote...

Well, if that's the case you could just leave the Archdemon alive.. dirty work accomplished for you, go slack off somewhere else in the meantime ^^

The darkspawn could be up to something. And what is to say that they can't be possessed? No, they must also die.

[eschilde]

Herr Uhl wrote...
The darkspawn could be up to something. And what is to say that they can't be possessed? No, they must also die.

You can kill them after they do all the hard work for you!

[Herr Uhl]

eschilde wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
The darkspawn could be up to something. And what is to say that they can't be possessed? No, they must also die.

You can kill them after they do all the hard work for you!

But I need the others for killing them. And I doubt that darkspawn would make good loyal troops to kill themselves with.

I need moar golems.

[Layn]

eschilde wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
The darkspawn could be up to something. And what is to say that they can't be possessed? No, they must also die.

You can kill them after they do all the hard work for you!

Darkspawn:  IT'S THE ARCHWARDEN! HE/SHE WILL KILL US ALL! Quick! someone drink human blood! that ought to give us powers to defeat that blight!

[Dark83]

Logic, eh? Let's try this.

Objective facts that we should all be able to agree on.
1) If an Old God is corrupted, he becomes an Archdemon.
2) The Body/Vessel of the Archdemon is Irrelevant. (Right? He'll just jump to another body? That's why the Grey Wardens do the Joining and sacrifice themselves?)
3) One Blight per Archdemon.
2) = 4) It is the Old God's Soul/Spirit that is corrupted, not the Body/Vessel (dragon) in which it resides. (If 2 is wrong, so is 4, so factcheck me.)
1) + 3) = 5) One Blight per Old God Soul corrupted.
6) Via sacrifice, the corrupted Old God's Soul (the Archdemon) is destroyed.
7) There are two Old Gods remaining.
7) + 3) = 8) There are up to two Blights remaining.
9) If the Dark Ritual is done, the Old God soul survives in another Vessel/Body (baby).
3) + 1) + 9)  = 10) There are up to three Blights remaining.

No Dark Ritual = 8) There are up to two Blights remaining.
Dark Ritual = 10) There are up to three Blights remaining.

These are all the objective facts. The subjective ones modify 9 and 10 - "That soul won't be corrupted because..." why? Morrigan says so? You can believe or not believe her. That becomes subjective. All knowledge of what she intends to do with the baby, and what the baby can or cannot do is subjective because it is based on if we believe someone with bias (she wants it done) and a conflict of interest (with regards to informing you while wanting you to comply). The survival of the soul is objective. The fact that a corrupt old god is an archdemon is objective.

It's either a definete two Blights, or zero (?) to three Blights. The latter estimate depends on if you believe Morrigan and if you think she will succeed. If you believe her the number drops, if you think she (and the kid) succeeds the number drops. Which is entirely subjective. The question of if the Old God soul can even be corrupted while in the child is also an unknown. However, that the existance of such a soul means it can be corrupted. We know that it can in dragonform, we do not know it can't in kidform. Given that it can in another body, what basis do we have to say it can't in a different body?

The pragmatic decision (based on objective knowledge with no judgement of character) would be to refuse the Dark Ritual. Even if the three Grey Wardens fall here, now that Ferelden is no longer under the control of a paranoid nutjob, the Grey Warden armies will be able to act anyways.

(Regarding the number of Grey Wardens in existance, remember that only recently did Maric let them back into Ferelden, which means the number pre-treason was merely how many entered and were Joined. This means that the numbers of Grey Wardens in Orlais alone will be several magnitudes higher than those in Ferelden at full strength. Even in Antiva they are considered untouchable by the political intrigues.)

Modifié par Dark83, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:39 .

[Taleroth]

It is the Old God's Soul/Spirit that is corrupted,

We can't know this. We can't even suspect it. We know nothing about what happens when an Old God becomes an Archdemon.

Another thing you assume is the number of Blights remaining. The conclusion that the number of Blights is 0-3 is dependent upon assuming you know the number of Old Gods remaining (we don't even know the true nature of Old Gods, let alone if more could exist than previously believed or if more could come into existance) and that Old Gods are the only things capable of becoming Archdemons.

Modifié par Taleroth, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:50 .

[Valmy]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If you don't give Morrigan neither of the 2 books..does she propose the ritual?

Even if you kick her out of the party two seconds after she joins she will still show up and propose the ritual at the end.

[Dark83]

Taleroth wrote...

It is the Old God's Soul/Spirit that is corrupted,

We can't know this. We can't even suspect it. We know nothing about what happens when an Old God becomes an Archdemon.

So basically you don't believe that Corrupted Old God = Archdemon? Even though that's the basis upon which Morrigan is doing the ritual, and what the Grey Wardens do? Have I missed something?

To put it another way:
1) Old God can become Archdemon.
2) If Archdemon's body is killed, its spirit goes to another, which is why a Grey Warden must sacrifice themself.
3) Via Dark Ritual, the spirit can be reborn instead of destroyed.

Is this not what we're told?

Taleroth wrote...

Another thing you assume is the number of Blights remaining. The conclusion that the number of Blights is 0-3 is dependent upon assuming you know the number of Old Gods remaining (we don't even know the true nature of Old Gods, let alone if more could exist than previously believed or if more could come into existance) and that Old Gods are the only things capable of becoming Archdemons.

So basically you're denying the in-game speculation in exchange for your own even more baseless ones?

So long as "Old God in existance = potential Archdemon", then having one more Old God means one more potential Archdemon. If you deny that, then you're basically saying a giant chunk of what we're told in the game is completely false. In game speculation in exchange for your speculation.

Modifié par Dark83, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:07 .

[Taleroth]

[quote]Dark83 wrote...

[quote]Taleroth wrote...



[quote]It is the Old God's Soul/Spirit that is corrupted,[/quote]
We can't know this. We can't even suspect it. We know nothing about what happens when an Old God becomes an Archdemon.[/quote]So basically you don't believe that Corrupted Old God = Archdemon? Even though that's the basis upon which Morrigan is doing the ritual, and what the Grey Wardens do? Have I missed something?[/quote] You certainly have.  You missed the part where I was quoting you say "soul."  We don't know that the spirit is the corrupted part, it could be the body.  We can't even truly know what "corruption" means in this context, either. 

[quote]To put it another way:
1) Old God can become Archdemon.
2) If Archdemon's body is killed, its spirit goes to another, which is why a Grey Warden must sacrifice themself.
3) Via Dark Ritual, the spirit can be reborn instead of destroyed.

Is this not what we're told?[/quote] But we can't assume the full veracity or effects of any of those steps.

[quote][quote]Taleroth wrote...

Another thing you assume is the number of Blights remaining. The conclusion that the number of Blights is 0-3 is dependent upon assuming you know the number of Old Gods remaining (we don't even know the true nature of Old Gods, let alone if more could exist than previously believed or if more could come into existance) and that Old Gods are the only things capable of becoming Archdemons.[/quote]So basically you're denying the in-game speculation in exchange for your own even more baseless ones?

So long as "Old God in existance = potential Archdemon", then having one more Old God means one more potential Archdemon. If you deny that, then you're basically saying a giant chunk of what we're told in the game is completely false. In game speculation in exchange for your speculation.[/quote][/quote]

I'm primarilly stating that you can't claim in-game speculation is objective fact.

Modifié par Taleroth, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:12 .

[Dark83]

Or to be more explicit.

We don't know how an Old God turns into an Archdemon.

However, we do know that Old Gods can turn into an Archdemon. (Unless you don't believe this one either.)

We know that killing the body of the Archdemon is pointless (right?) as it's spirit just goes elsewhere.

Therefore the Archdemon's existance isn't tied into the Old God's body.

We know that destroying the Archdemon causes it to jump into a body, and that the spirit can be destroyed. At the same time, that spirit can also be filtered out into a kid.

If it's not the Old God's body that turns into an Archdemon (since the Archdemon demonstrably does not require the dragon body, right?) Then other than its spirit, what is it?

[Dark83]

Taleroth wrote...

I'm primarilly stating that you can't claim in-game speculation is objective fact.

In game speculation on who's part, however? Nothing can be absolutely verified, but I'm under the impression that the statements I made were treated as facts in-game. You can say "they're wrong", but then you'd be saying you are more correct than those in game, though you have less access to information.

[Taleroth]

Dark83 wrote...

Or to be more explicit.
We don't know how an Old God turns into an Archdemon.

Correct.

However, we do know that Old Gods can turn into an Archdemon. (Unless you don't believe this one either.)

This is mostly suspicion.  Reasonable suspicion, but it's still suspicion.  We can't exactly verify WHAT the Archdemon is except that people believe it is an Old God.

We know that killing the body of the Archdemon is pointless (right?) as it's spirit just goes elsewhere.

Not just "elsewhere."  It goes into a tainted body.

Therefore the Archdemon's existance isn't tied into the Old God's body.

  The Archdemon's continued existance is not tied to the body he originally had, that's all we can say.

We know that destroying the Archdemon causes it to jump into a body, and that the spirit can be destroyed. At the same time, that spirit can also be filtered out into a kid.

Presumably correct. 

If it's not the Old God's body that turns into an Archdemon (since the Archdemon demonstrably does not require the dragon body, right?) Then other than its spirit, what is it?

  An Old God's body is not required to maintain an Archdemon.  This is notably different from an Old God's body being required to create an Archdemon.  We simply don't know.  We don't even know the nature of the spirit/body divide in this world.

Dark83 wrote...

 In game speculation on who's part, however?

The Grey Wardens?  Riordan?
 

Nothing can be absolutely verified

Sure it can, test it.

but I'm under the impression that the statements I made were treated as facts in-game.

Facts in that they're not opinions, correct.  Treated as facts by people who believed them, this is different from truth.
 

You can say "they're wrong", but then you'd be saying you are more correct than those in game, though you have less access to information.

I never said they were wrong.  I said you can't treat them as objective facts.



It was also believed that people dragged underground were turned into Darkspawn.  That was fact, as well.

Modifié par Taleroth, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:30 .

[037686]

Dark83 wrote...

Or to be more explicit.
We don't know how an Old God turns into an Archdemon.
However, we do know that Old Gods can turn into an Archdemon. (Unless you don't believe this one either.)
We know that killing the body of the Archdemon is pointless (right?) as it's spirit just goes elsewhere.
Therefore the Archdemon's existance isn't tied into the Old God's body.
We know that destroying the Archdemon causes it to jump into a body, and that the spirit can be destroyed. At the same time, that spirit can also be filtered out into a kid.
If it's not the Old God's body that turns into an Archdemon (since the Archdemon demonstrably does not require the dragon body, right?) Then other than its spirit, what is it?

The Old God's soul is drawn to the taint - this is why it enters the body of Grey Wardens, but not other non-darkspawn. Therefore, the body that the soul enters is already carrying the taint, since the only two options at that point would be that the body is either that of a darkspawn, or that of a Grey Warden. If the body is a Darkspawn, it "reincarnates". If it is a Grey Warden, both the Warden and the soul are destroyed.

The key point is that the body the soul enters into is already tainted in some form, and that is where the corruption stems from. We cannot conclude from that that the soul of the Old God is corrupted in transit to the new host body. Indeed, the only form of in game commentary we have on the subject is from Morrigan, who states that the OId God soul will survive uncorrupted if you undertake the ritual.

[Silensfurtim]

another reason why Morrigan can't be trusted lol.

• Shale: "The swamp witch has a great deal in common with my former master"
• Morrigan: "'The swamp witch.' How original."
• Shale: "The swamp witch has the same arrogance, the
  same air of cruelty. I would hate for it to have possession of my
  control rod--if it still worked, of course."
• Morrigan: "Let me tell you what you can do with your control rod, golem."
• Shale: "Is it telling me that if the rod did work, it wouldn't want control over me?"
• Morrigan: "I wouldn't go so far as that. I could, for instance, command you to go jump in a lake. A very deep lake."
• Shale: "It fools no one. The swamp witch would control everything if it could. It would have us all dancing on its strings."
• Morrigan: "Oh, you know me too well, golem. Your revealing gaze has laid me bare."
• Shale: "I will be watching the swamp witch. It must not be trusted."
• Morrigan: Sigh "Now you're beginning to sound just like Alistair."

[Wolfva2]

037686 wrote...

So I take it that all of those who feel the ritual is too risky also destroyed the mages in the Circle tower?

If not, why not? The same logic you apply to the unknown risks of the ritual apply to the mages: namely, they may have been converted to Blood Mages. They may have dorment demons inside them.

Secondly, on the issue of damaging the unborn baby's soul: my understanding is that this is not possible. If the baby already HAD a soul, both it and the Old God would be destroyed, exactly as happens when a Grey Warden kills the Archdemon. The only reason that the Old God soul can rest in the developing baby is that there is no soul to contest the body. It is for exactly the same reason that the Archdemon can reincarnate inside a Darkspawn - there is no soul to contest the body.

The lore as revealed in the game seems to indicate that the only beings who can reside in another's body are demons, via possession. Flemeth is able to body-snatch because she merged her soul with that of the demon she came into contact with, thus enabling her to engage in the same body-possession demons are able to indulge in. Morrigan has no such ability, because as a full human, an attempt to share the body of another living being would destroy her.

This is given further weight when you consider what happens to Flemeth when you "kill" her. Morrigan states that she will be back, and isn't actually dead. It seems likely that she has returned to the Fade, as would happen when any other demon is slain. Again, this is due to the nature of what Flemeth has become. Flemeth is no longer human, and is able to do many things that Morrigan is simply not able to.

Morigan explains to you that the baby soul is malleable enough, at that age, to absorb the old god's soul.  So the baby already has a soul, it just takes in the dragon's soul as well and melds them together. 

I didn't destroy the mages because I felt even if some had turned, there would be enough who hadn't to take care of business.  On the other hand, I refused to allow an innocent soul, that of the baby, to be sacrificed just for my life.  More importantly, perhaps, I refused to allow MY child to be used in such a way.  Slaying the archdemon was MY job.  It's what I was there to do.  And I'm not about to shirk my duty just because I want to live a few years more. 

Modifié par Wolfva2, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:52 .

[Wolfva2]

Something else I thought of. At the time Morrigan (whom I was at 100 with, and still actively courting...funny thing, After talking to Reynald I was thinking it'd be nice to find Morigan in my room...) told me her plan, the first thought in my mind was it was Flemeth had planned on using the baby the same way she used her daughters...ie. take it over. I couldn't risk Flemeth, or even Morigan, having that type of power. So, I kept it in my pants and she ran off.