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[Dark83]

Hm. Yet it remains far more subjective to believe one person than the entire body of knowledge thus far ascertained over several hundred years.

[037686]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Morigan explains to you that the baby soul is malleable enough, at that age, to absorb the old god's soul.  So the baby already has a soul, it just takes in the dragon's soul as well and melds them together.

Ah, perhaps my memory is faulty. Thanks for the correction!

Either way, nothing actually gets destroyed, which (to me at least) is the important point.

I didn't destroy the mages because I felt even if some had turned, there would be enough who hadn't to take care of business.

The situation is no different, however. Either way, innocents are still involved, and someone innocent could potentially die.

On the other hand, I refused to allow an innocent soul, that of the baby, to be sacrificed just for my life.

Except that assuming the meld you mentioned above is correct, nothing is getting destroyed.

More importantly, perhaps, I refused to allow MY child to be used in such a way. 

But would you not agree that this not a selfish decision in of itself? You specifically noted, YOUR child. What difference does that make? Would you rather risk all 3 Grey Wardens dying en-route to the Archdemon, thus dooming countless innocents to death (and the creation of who knows how many new Broodmothers) than allow your PC's child to be changed in a fashion you don't even actually know would hurt it? How is the unknown potential risk to an unborn (and insofar as the PC is concerned at time of decision, unconceived ) child less acceptable than the reality that if  the three Wardens all fall, Denirim (and possibly Feralden) is utterly lost? Is the life of one worth more than the thousands who will die if you are wrong?

The events at Ostagar proved that the Grey Wardens are not invincible against the Darkspawn. It is not inconceivable that Riordan, Alistair and the PC could die on their way through the city, and then what?

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I believe those who are trying to illustrate there is a right and wrong approach here are absolutely incorrect. This is a very, very grey area, and no matter how you slice it, you are risking something.

[Dark83]

I was under the impression that there were more Wardens on the way? It's certainly implied that there are armies of them in the nations that haven't had a tyrant boot them out.

[037686]

Dark83 wrote...

Hm. Yet it remains far more subjective to believe one person than the entire body of knowledge thus far ascertained over several hundred years.

That is very true. Although to counter, consider the likes of Galileo. Obviously, he wasn't wrong - but he was ostracised and kept under house arrest for his insights. The one isn't always wrong.

Personally, I feel the Chantry, the Maker, and Andraste are a crock. My belief is that the Ashes only have healing powers due to the massive lyrium vein Oghren detects in the area, which has caused magical change to be made to the temple. The spirits and guardian, too, I believe to be a result of the insane amount of lyrium in the area.

Flemeth is very, very old indeed - I believe she pre-dates Andraste signficantly, if I remember correctly. Assuming my recollection is correct, that would make her the only living person on Thedas to know the historical truth about the Maker, Andraste (was she really merely a powerful mage?), and possibly the Old Gods . And in turn, that means Morrigan may have insight that no one else does about what the Old Gods actually are.

Consider the legend of Cormac, which we find to have been fabricated thanks to Morrigan reporting what actually happened. This introduces us to the concept that what is considered "fact" about the ancient past in Ferelden doesn't necessarily reflect what actually happened. Furthermore, consider that The Chant of Light was supposedly modified after its creation. Again, it doesn't reassure you that the whole truth is there.

Given what we find over the course of the game, I find that skepticism towards hundreds of years of "knowledge" comes rather easily.

[037686]

Dark83 wrote...

I was under the impression that there were more Wardens on the way? It's certainly implied that there are armies of them in the nations that haven't had a tyrant boot them out.

Oh yes, but they won't get there soon enough to stop Denirim being wiped out. They have zero presence at the Battle of Denirim, they're still too far away. But the time they arrived, it would be long over, and there would be a rather nice crop of prospective new Hurlock Broodmothers being violated in the Deep Roads.

[RunCDFirst]

037686 wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

Hm. Yet it remains far more subjective to believe one person than the entire body of knowledge thus far ascertained over several hundred years.

That is very true. Although to counter, consider the likes of Galileo. Obviously, he wasn't wrong - but he was ostracised and kept under house arrest for his insights. The one isn't always wrong.

Personally, I feel the Chantry, the Maker, and Andraste are a crock. My belief is that the Ashes only have healing powers due to the massive lyrium vein Oghren detects in the area, which has caused magical change to be made to the temple. The spirits and guardian, too, I believe to be a result of the insane amount of lyrium in the area.

Flemeth is very, very old indeed - I believe she pre-dates Andraste signficantly, if I remember correctly. Assuming my recollection is correct, that would make her the only living person on Thedas to know the historical truth about the Maker, Andraste (was she really merely a powerful mage?), and possibly the Old Gods . And in turn, that means Morrigan may have insight that no one else does about what the Old Gods actually are.

Consider the legend of Cormac, which we find to have been fabricated thanks to Morrigan reporting what actually happened. This introduces us to the concept that what is considered "fact" about the ancient past in Ferelden doesn't necessarily reflect what actually happened. Furthermore, consider that The Chant of Light was supposedly modified after its creation. Again, it doesn't reassure you that the whole truth is there.

Given what we find over the course of the game, I find that skepticism towards hundreds of years of "knowledge" comes rather easily.

Brothers, call the Templars. We have another for the pyres.

[Wompoo]

Heh if I had my way I would hobble every stinking Warden for giving me a death sentence... I would even dance on Duncan's grave... yep they can take their duty and shove it where the sun don't shine. I'll take a roll in the sack and continued existence anytime.

[jinx01313]

Allattar1 wrote...

Only a corrupted Old God is an Archdemon.
The blight ended, or did it?, I cannot see that Morrigan or Flemeth would consider this route if they thought the blight on the God would not be removed with rebirth.

An interesting question is, if you do not accept Morrigans offer, does the ending still mention bands of Darkspawn running round, disorganised but still a threat?

A Grey Warden defends the land, the ritual they undergo to ensure they kill the Archdemon is a terrible price as well.
Personally I had faith that the Dark Ritual was going to end the blight and didnt see it as any different to giving your life.

How so?

Flemeth makes it pretty clear that the Blight is highly inconvenient to her.

[jinx01313]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Being selfish and not wanting to die is only one reason to accept Morrigan's offer.
My first character have seen it as a chance to stop the Blight without permanently removing something of great power from the world. So he accepted.

The world has survived without these great powers just fine for the last 1400 years.

sure other than the darkspawn and a fanatical order that has spread its holy wars across the country.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Dark83 wrote...

No Dark Ritual = 8) There are up to two Blights remaining.
Dark Ritual = 10) There are up to three Blights remaining.

Technical mistake.
No Dark ritual = two Blights remaining. Not "up to", exactly two. 
Oh, and one more thing just came into my mind - we do not know what happens after the last Archdemon falls. One thing that comes to mind is that the Darkspawn no longer feel the presense of the Old Gods and thus lose interest in digging undergrounds. Probably turning to the next biggest stimulus, either the Wardens or the dwarves.

[jinx01313]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

No Dark Ritual = 8) There are up to two Blights remaining.
Dark Ritual = 10) There are up to three Blights remaining.

Technical mistake.
No Dark ritual = two Blights remaining. Not "up to", exactly two. 
Oh, and one more thing just came into my mind - we do not know what happens after the last Archdemon falls. One thing that comes to mind is that the Darkspawn no longer feel the presense of the Old Gods and thus lose interest in digging undergrounds. Probably turning to the next biggest stimulus, either the Wardens or the dwarves.

Thats assuming  the Wardens and the Chantry are correct when they say that the Old Trevinter Gods become the Archdemons.  If so then only two more blights.  The god of beauty is dead, the essence will be reborn in a human not dragon body and is no longer a Trevinter god.  (Although he/she/it may become a god.) If not just the Trevinter Gods can be corrupted then there is still the Maker himself and all the elven gods to taint, plenty to keep the darkspawn busy with.

[Orogun01]

jinx01313 wrote...

Thats assuming  the Wardens and the Chantry are correct when they say that the Old Trevinter Gods become the Archdemons.  If so then only two more blights.  The god of beauty is dead, the essence will be reborn in a human not dragon body and is no longer a Trevinter god.  (Although he/she/it may become a god.) If not just the Trevinter Gods can be corrupted then there is still the Maker himself and all the elven gods to taint, plenty to keep the darkspawn busy with.

Good point, for all we know they are regular dragons and the Old Gods are long gone or never have been present. 

[themaxzero]

My personal feelings is that the Darkspawn are not an accidental creation. I think they were a deliberate creation by Mages in order to fight Demons (notice how Demons and Darkspawn never work together?).

Notice how Branka (who is reguarded as being very intelligent) notices the superiority of the the Darkspawn and creates them herself? It also shows that the Darkspawn can be controlled and directed. Branka somehow gained control of the Darkspawn from the Broodmother and directed them towards the Anvil. 100% loyal, fearless soldiers.

Think about it: Darkspawn don't feel pride, lust, sloth, rage (in that they don't get angry) or hunger (they eat but not for personal nourishment). Add to that they can be created quickly and in larger numbers.

They are the perfect weapon to use against Demons. But I think its all gone wrong and the Darkspawn are fighting the wrong targets.

Modifié par themaxzero, 04 décembre 2009 - 08:07 .

[Dark83]

I thought Branka merely redirected them, much like one would corral running bulls.

[Wittand25]

037686 wrote...

Flemeth is very, very old indeed - I believe she pre-dates Andraste signficantly, if I remember correctly. Assuming my recollection is correct, that would make her the only living person on Thedas to know the historical truth about the Maker, Andraste (was she really merely a powerful mage?), and possibly the Old Gods . And in turn, that means Morrigan may have insight that no one else does about what the Old Gods actually are.

Flemeth is not that old, she was born in the year 0 of the tower age, that is nearly fourhundred years after andraste´s death or eigthhundred year after the beginning of the first blight, so I dont think she has any first hand knowledge on the subject of the maker or how the darkspawn really started.

[037686]

Wittand25 wrote...

Flemeth is not that old, she was born in the year 0 of the tower age, that is nearly fourhundred years after andraste´s death or eigthhundred year after the beginning of the first blight, so I dont think she has any first hand knowledge on the subject of the maker or how the darkspawn really started.

Good to know - thanks!

Where did you get that info, by the way? I don't recall reading it anywhere, so I must have missed something.

[Wittand25]

I have the collectors game guide. The lore section contains both a Thedas- and a Ferelden-timeline and other background info.

[037686]

Wow...that's some pretty amazing info to receive in a collector's edition. Is there anything else of interest that it notes?

[Wittand25]

I think most information in the guide can be found in the game, but it is nice to have it put together in one place so that it is easy to look thing up like start and end of blights or the names of the different ages.

[Dark83]

A collector's edition that actually means something. That's... that's... ... that's beautiful, man.

[Anya_Mornhaven]

themaxzero wrote...


My personal feelings is that the Darkspawn are not an accidental creation. I think they were a deliberate creation by Mages in order to fight Demons (notice how Demons and Darkspawn never work together?).

Notice how Branka (who is reguarded as being very intelligent) notices the superiority of the the Darkspawn and creates them herself? It also shows that the Darkspawn can be controlled and directed. Branka somehow gained control of the Darkspawn from the Broodmother and directed them towards the Anvil. 100% loyal, fearless soldiers.

Think about it: Darkspawn don't feel pride, lust, sloth, rage (in that they don't get angry) or hunger (they eat but not for personal nourishment). Add to that they can be created quickly and in larger numbers.

They are the perfect weapon to use against Demons. But I think its all gone wrong and the Darkspawn are fighting the wrong targets.

That's an interesting theory about the creation of darkspawn.

With respect, I disagree that the darkspawn were ever loyal to Branka or even emotionless; there are a few cutscenes in which they show excitement and aggression (particularly during the Dead Trenches and Final Battle introduction), where they roar and shake their weapons as the equivalent of saying "Bring it on!" Also, as another poster mentioned, Branka directed both parties, but she didn't have control over the results. Her angry House members aside, she would have been torn apart or worse if the darkspawn had caught her.

As for lust... I'm unsure what darkspawn actually feel or think when creating the Broodmothers from captured women of other races. When they force-feed them regurgitated flesh and do other vile things, do they view themselves as being nurturing? We know Hespith said that they hate the other races because they need them, but it's difficult to know what their true thoughts are. As they're said to have a violent nature (gathered from reading the book-related threads) and war amongst each other frequently (except when a Blight starts), they seem to prize strength and IMHO, that needs ambition/passion as well as individual belief behind it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some form of racial tension between the various types of darkspawn, and that would make a fascinating development, their brutal "politics" (in-fighting) aside.

[Axterix]

037686 wrote...

Flemeth is very, very old indeed - I believe she pre-dates Andraste signficantly, if I remember correctly. Assuming my recollection is correct, that would make her the only living person on Thedas to know the historical truth about the Maker, Andraste (was she really merely a powerful mage?), and possibly the Old Gods . And in turn, that means Morrigan may have insight that no one else does about what the Old Gods actually are.

That would make several assumptions.  That the Maker itself came about at that time, did not exist before, which, if it is real, would not be the case, being named the Maker and all.  That Flemeth would know the historical truth.  A huge assumption, since it would require that she either actively go out and seek it or else that she had accurate information sent to her.  Most likely, she would mostly just know rumors.  And those rumors would be widely inaccurate and often contradictory.  Unless she deemed the situation a risk to herself, she would have no reason to bother with more.

Consider the legend of Cormac, which we find to have been fabricated thanks to Morrigan reporting what actually happened. This introduces us to the concept that what is considered "fact" about the ancient past in Ferelden doesn't necessarily reflect what actually happened. Furthermore, consider that The Chant of Light was supposedly modified after its creation. Again, it doesn't reassure you that the whole truth is there.

Actually happened? 

What exactly makes you think that the story Morrigan tells is the truth?  Morrigan herself might have altered the story a bit, to make the player look more favorably upon her and mom and therefore be more likely to go along with the ritual.  And who is to say Flemeth is telling the truth?  The story could well contain deliberate falsehoods to aid in the manipulation of Morrigan so Flemeth gets her new meat suit.  And, lastly, it might well be what Flemeth has told and actually believes now, but that and what really happened could have diverged over the years.

Flemeth is a puppet master, after all.  I highly doubt her version is the truth anymore than the commonly accepted version.  Each will most likely bend what really happened to serve their own view of self, to serve their own ends.  The civilized part of Ferelden to build a hero, the Chantry to build their religion, Flemeth to build her own self.  And for all of them, tell it often enough, long enough, and it'll become the truth.

Given what we find over the course of the game, I find that skepticism towards hundreds of years of "knowledge" comes rather easily.

And yet you blindly accept "knowledge" that comes from another source, just because it happens to differ from the commonly accepted truth.

Most likely, the actual truth falls somewhere between.

Anyway, as to the ritual, yeah, I'd say it is a selfish act.  A warden is out to stop the blight and to protect humanity.   Insuring the death is something you know works, ends the Blight for good.

Beyond that, what of the future?  What you know of Flemeth and Morrigan, the body snatching, the using and killing of men, and so on, well, these aren't exactly good acts.  Both are power hungry beings who view many virtues as weaknesses.  Yet you would turn over the soul of an old god to them. 

The odds of that turning out well in the long run...well, I expect it'll be bad enough to be DA2

Modifié par Axterix, 04 décembre 2009 - 10:52 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Axterix wrote...

Anyway, as to the ritual, yeah, I'd say it is a selfish act.  A warden is out to stop the blight and to protect humanity.   Insuring the death is something you know works, ends the Blight for good.

Nothing has ever ended the Blight for good.  There is one prevalent theory that the Blights are tied to the finding of the Old Gods by the darkspawn, but as Riordan points out it is a tenuous theory at best.

[marshalleck]

Axterix wrote...

That would make several assumptions.  That the Maker itself came about at that time, did not exist before, which, if it is real, would not be the case, being named the Maker and all.

Umm, surely you can see how tenuous this reasoning is. Calling itself the Maker doesn't mean it's the origin of all things, just like calling myself Martha Stewart doesn't automatically impart me with the ability to make a souffle. And it wouldn't be the first instance of a duplicitous trickster god leading mortals astray under the noblest of pretenses.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 décembre 2009 - 11:22 .

[Axterix]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Nothing has ever ended the Blight for good.  There is one prevalent theory that the Blights are tied to the finding of the Old Gods by the darkspawn, but as Riordan points out it is a tenuous theory at best.

Actually, killing an Archdemon does end a Blight for good.  You'll notice there's Blights (those being archdemon led) and false Blights (non-archdemon led).  The latter are much easier to deal with, often seem to fade away based on how people react.  An archdemon in the lead is what makes a Blight.  Without one, it is not officially a Blight.

Now, what would happen to the Darkspawn if there are no more ancient gods to twist?  Who knows.  Maybe they find something new to take the archdemon role.  Maybe they eventuall wither and die.  And maybe they just continue to exist like they do between Blights.