1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Axterix]

marshalleck wrote...

Umm, surely you can see how tenuous this reasoning is. Calling itself the Maker doesn't mean it's the origin of all things, just like calling myself Martha Stewart doesn't automatically impart me with the ability to make a souffle. And it wouldn't be the instance of a duplicitous trickster god leading mortals astray while under the noblest of pretenses.

No, but if you are Martha Stewart, you calling yourself that certainly wouldn't remove from you the ability to make a souffle.  Or even if you aren't, it doesn't mean you cannot. 

The Maker of lore though, is exactly that, the Maker, responsible for creation.  That is what the followers believe.  Are they right?  Are they wrong?  Who knows.

But just because you don't buy into what they believe, doesn't mean they are wrong.

[marshalleck]

If your point is that I can't point to one specific shred of evidence as proof that the Maker/Chantry are a fraud, you're right. I can not. But I can point to several pieces of circumstantial evidence that lead me to think all is not as the Chantry would have me believe, and my conclusions are no more or less valid than their own since they likewise have no conclusive proof that they are right.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 décembre 2009 - 11:41 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Axterix wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Nothing has ever ended the Blight for good.  There is one prevalent theory that the Blights are tied to the finding of the Old Gods by the darkspawn, but as Riordan points out it is a tenuous theory at best.

Actually, killing an Archdemon does end a Blight for good.  You'll notice there's Blights (those being archdemon led) and false Blights (non-archdemon led).  The latter are much easier to deal with, often seem to fade away based on how people react.  An archdemon in the lead is what makes a Blight.  Without one, it is not officially a Blight.

Now, what would happen to the Darkspawn if there are no more ancient gods to twist?  Who knows.  Maybe they find something new to take the archdemon role.  Maybe they eventuall wither and die.  And maybe they just continue to exist like they do between Blights.

Eh, there's very little difference between Blights by all accounts.  As far as the dwarves are concerned, it's been a continuous war for a very long time.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Whilst there is the honour thing of the 'eldest' warden choosing whom slays the demon, if you look at the options available to the player when both you and Alastair are up on that roof having not taken the ritual. You have an option to be truly selfish and state that it is your kill to make. Course it depends on how you read/say it I guess, some could see it either way although most would claim it selfless (like Alastair does at your funeral).

To an truly untrained or newish Warden the option of the ritual is something they would no doubt wonder why it hasn't been done before. Also don't forget, the Wardens aren't like Templars, they hire anyone whom is willing to stand up and show they can fight (Duncan himself states this). Look at some of the Origin stories, actually joining the Wardens could be considered a selfish act to escape a punishment rather than being selfless and taking the punishment. The Dwarf Noble however wronged he was, he was destined in his origin had he not come across the Wardens to... actually do what the Wardens do when they die anyway. So he has already escaped a shorter mortality rate by joining the Wardens. Some would say justice was served, okay, but as the ritual has never been done before (have to wonder if Flemeth had suggested it to previous wardens in the last blight?) why not test it to see if it works as intended and spares a warden at least for a few more years (PC about 29 more, Alastair am guessing 28-29).

If we had been wardens for a while and known of the sacrifice I think it would be considered a selfish act, the fact the news has only just been told to us and then Morrigan giving us this 'get out' clause to some extent. Its a question of the Wardens trying something new and whom better to try it than a new Warden? *shrugs*

My theory on the old-god child is, it isn't just the old-god whose essence will be in it, but Flemeth's too, THAT is how she (and Morrigan) have their unnatural lifespan (albeit this is the first time she will have an old-god as soul buddy). If player didn't romance Morrigan, nor do the ritual, it just a case of waiting for 'someone to dance to her tune' as Flemeth stated to the player.

[PatT2]

Ummm...the ritual has been performed before, if what Morrigan says is true.

[fantasypisces]

Here is my opinion, what the outcome is will be the first section, to see my reasons why I went through with it, read below the line "----------".

The outcome.

Morrigan, as a lot of us has guessed, is chaotic neutral. She is out for her survival and power. Because of this, I don't think she would try and let the child become another archdemon. Now, it can be proposed that flemith wanted the child to posses. It can also be proposed that Morrigan knew of Flemith's ability to extend her life because Flemith says "it is a tale that she has told before." So it is assumed that Morrigan wants Flemiths powers, hence her grimoire.

However, Morrigan also mentions at one point, that what Flemith does can only be done by an abomination with considerable power. Does that mean Morrigan is already an abomination, or that she will become one, if she wishes to posses the child? Or is it more she wants to give birth back to an old-god to gain that God's knowledge and power, by having the god as an ally? I presume it is more likely the latter rather than the possession. This then goes along with what someone said earlier, because Morrigan is not evil, the god-child could conceivably help fight any future blights because it would be fully awake and therefore harder to corrupt.

Also, I think it is mentioned that the ritual has been done before. And Flemith turns into a Dragon. Ummmmm, so maybe Flemith was the one that did it before? And we never saw Flemith going crazy trying to destroy a country, a world, etc. She lived in her hut with her daughter(s), evading the mage-hunters.

-------------------------
Why I did it for my first character, human noble Ranger/duelist.

I just lost my entire family. I made Allistair king, he is my best friend, I don't want him to die. I loved Morrigan, she taught my character things that resonated with him. Wanting to escape the trappings of civilization and the inherit plotting and scheming and backstabbing politics that goes on, Morrigan became someone he could relate too. Now, if he didn't take the option, he would have lost his family, possibly lost his best friend, and then lost his real love (because it is assumed Morrigan will be pissed if you don't go along with her). The next option is to sacrifice himself. In this way he was kind of selfish. He wanted to perserve the things he held dear to him, and therefore vows to find Morrigan again.

My second character I played more akin to how I thought I would be, if the person was literally me. A mage who despises the chantry and has a more pagan outlook. Once again this character loved Morrigan, because he could relate to her in many ways. He obviously went through with the ritual. He loves Morrigan and vows to find her, and has no problem allowing the soul of an old god to live, because the go along with his beliefs. This I do not find as selfish. The blight is ended, the people saved, and an old-god is allowed to be reborn. There is no evidence the old gods were evil, that is just what the chantry says: alla similar to real life when the Church said all pagan gods were evil, when it couldn't be further from the truth. Because becoming a Grey Warden was kind of thrust on him, and in a period of what, a week, a month? He finds out he will only live for 30 more years, and that the only way to kill an archdemon is for a grey-warden to sacrifice themselves. For someone who didn't pick the path of a grey-warden, that is a lot to thrust on them, so if there is another way out, that goes along with your beliefs, then I don't view that as selfish. Maybe in a sense misinformed (if the old-gods were evil), but not selfish.

My only gripe, why is Morrigan so determined that you cannot follow her? Obviously Bioware did that to make it a hard choice. But come on. If you character (alla my Mage) said to Morrigan "I agree with what you are doing and support it, but when this is all over I want to come with you". Why would she say "no, you can't come" and sacrifice everything she was working towards, when the character agrees with her.

Obviously it is to set up the next storyline. But that irks me because in the epilogue saved game, Morrigan is no longer 100'love', she is 100'friendly'. So if you are allowed to load your saved game (and it would be from the epilogue most likely) then the game might not have any indication that the character and Morrigan were in Love. So I wonder if one does encounter the character in the next game if options of "I missed you, I still love you, please let me help you" would even be available. Very upsetting.

To summarise. Depending on how you play your character it may or may not be selfish. Then, through the dialogue with Morrigan (both friendly and romance dialogue) deep down she is a good person, but it is just too hard to shed what she was raised with (Flemith). She may be power-hungry, but she is not evil. She does have the capacity for carring. So I don't believe Morrigan would willingly let the god-child become evil. And if it did, I believe she would try and stop it. If she possesses the child, ala Flemith style, then her character becomes questionable, but once again, I don't think she would be evil, just the chaotic neutral witch wondering the wilds (with my character hot on her trail).

Modifié par fantasypisces, 05 décembre 2009 - 01:38 .

[marshalleck]

Excellent post fantasypisces. As someone who for many years played a Neutral Evil druid in PNP AD&D (neutral evil  in many ways having only subtle distinctions from chaotic neutral), perhaps it is easier for gamers like you and I to feel an affinity with a character like Morrigan and look past the shallow moral equivocations and see the possibilities in the rebirth of an ancient god.

I will say this though, to me it's fairly obvious why Morrigan can never let you find her: your character is tainted, and could very likely cause the reborn old god to become tainted as well, or put them all at risk of discovery by the darkspawn. Perhaps there is more to it, but it's in no way an unreasonable assumption. As for her behaviour, is there any nice way on the eve of someone's potential death in combat to tell them that their love could mean the corruption of their child and the ruination of their dreams? Not really. So Morrigan leaves you with the hope that the promise of one day finding her will sustain you through the battle to come (remember she gives approval for supplying the knights in Redcliffe with the medals of false hope and protection) and takes her leave, but never forgets you--hence feeling her sorrow and regret through the ring.

Like I've said many times. Morrigan is *not* as wicked as Flemeth.

Modifié par marshalleck, 05 décembre 2009 - 02:26 .

[MassEffect762]

marshalleck wrote...

I will say this though, to me it's fairly obvious why Morrigan can never let you find her: your character is tainted, and could very likely cause the reborn old god to become tainted as well, or put them all at risk of discovery by the darkspawn. Perhaps there is more to it, but it's in no way an unreasonable assumption. As for her behaviour, is there any nice way on the eve of someone's potential death in combat to tell them that their love could mean the corruption of their child and the ruination of their dreams? Not really. So Morrigan wishes you the best and takes her leave when all is said and done, but never forgets you--hence feeling her sorrow and regret through the ring.

Like I've said many times. Morrigan is *not* as wicked as Flemeth.

"So Morrigan has  found someone willing to dance to her tune, such a lovely tune she plays wouldn't you say"

I hope your right though, but bioware will "mess" with us some more I'd bet.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 05 décembre 2009 - 02:27 .

[Silensfurtim]

did anybody notice when you load an epilougue save without going through the dark ritual, Morrigan disappears from the camp? when you go through the dark ritual she remains there.

[marshalleck]

MassEffect762 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I will say this though, to me it's fairly obvious why Morrigan can never let you find her: your character is tainted, and could very likely cause the reborn old god to become tainted as well, or put them all at risk of discovery by the darkspawn. Perhaps there is more to it, but it's in no way an unreasonable assumption. As for her behaviour, is there any nice way on the eve of someone's potential death in combat to tell them that their love could mean the corruption of their child and the ruination of their dreams? Not really. So Morrigan wishes you the best and takes her leave when all is said and done, but never forgets you--hence feeling her sorrow and regret through the ring.

Like I've said many times. Morrigan is *not* as wicked as Flemeth.

"So Morrigan has  found some one willing to dance to her tune, such a lovely tune she plays wouldn't you say"

I hope your right though, but bioware will "mess" with us some more I'd bet.

Indeed, it's an interesting question. But is it condemnation of Morrigan, or a reflection of Flemeth's cynic nature contrasted with Morrigan's harsh but nonetheless conflicted character?

I suspect this is intentionally open to interpretation, for players to read meaning into it as they desire. And what better way to mess with players than to have what appears to be a very selfish and perhaps even dangerous decision lead to an unexpected conclusion? I mean, it's pretty easy to assume that nothing but horror and death can come from the dark ritual, as attested by the length of this very thread.

I'll readily admit I don't have all the answers and they way I see it isn't the only way to look at it. We'll just have to wait and see where Bioware decides to go with this.

Modifié par marshalleck, 05 décembre 2009 - 02:44 .

[Layn]

marshalleck wrote...

Indeed, it's an interesting question. But is it condemnation of Morrigan, or a reflection of Flemeth's cynic nature contrasted with Morrigan's harsh but nonetheless conflicted character?

her intent at the beginning, not knowing any better is clearly to manipulate everyone into doing what she wants. But as Flemeth probably didn't understand, Morrigan made friends and that made her start to think of others and not only of herself. Flemeth only knew Morrigan, a friendless young witch who had to look out for herself and was growing to become just like her, and thats what she based that on. she seemed very sincere with her "i value our friendship" lines, but theres always the possibility that she is just that good at manipulating people.

Modifié par Crrash, 05 décembre 2009 - 03:13 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Silensfurtim wrote...

did anybody notice when you load an epilougue save without going through the dark ritual, Morrigan disappears from the camp? when you go through the dark ritual she remains there.

Yup, in theory it is understandable, they state that anything that occurs in the 'post-epilogue' save chronologically takes place before you go to the final onslaught, seeing as Morrigan is/isn't there if did/didn't do the ritual, that to me indicates that they are saying all the stuff we get up to in post-epilogue save time (set so we can have our completed characters take part in future DLC for the OC) occurs in the march from Redcliffe to Denerim.

So, erm, yeah we take a slight detour on the way to our final battle against the archdemon

Actually that just reminded me of something, they state it would take 2 days minimum to march to Denerim from Redcliffe and yet Morrigan states the ritual occurs on the 'eve of battle' and the cutscene for the ritual takes place in Redcliffe castle, erm... so did we then break the record for fast marching from Redcliffe to Denerim then inside a day?

[RunCDFirst]

marshalleck wrote...
I will say this though, to me it's fairly obvious why Morrigan can never let you find her: your character is tainted, and could very likely cause the reborn old god to become tainted as well, or put them all at risk of discovery by the darkspawn. Perhaps there is more to it, but it's in no way an unreasonable assumption. As for her behaviour, is there any nice way on the eve of someone's potential death in combat to tell them that their love could mean the corruption of their child and the ruination of their dreams? Not really. So Morrigan leaves you with the hope that the promise of one day finding her will sustain you through the battle to come (remember she gives approval for supplying the knights in Redcliffe with the medals of false hope and protection) and takes her leave, but never forgets you--hence feeling her sorrow and regret through the ring.

If that were the case, Morrigan would have been just upfront with it. I mean, what better way to get the annoying father off your back then saying he'll corrupt the baby?

And she doesn't leave you with the hope of one day finding her, she makes it rather explicit that she's going to disappear.

I'm all for trying to muddle the issue with personal moral reasonings and the like, but I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of Morrigan. What she is doing, even if she loves you, is cutting all ties from you and abandoning you for her own, inexplicable reasons.

And, I mean, it would be kinda hard to forget the father of your child.

[nmute]

to a great extent, day-to-day human activity is predicated upon "selfishness"; if that's the word being bandied about in this debate then fine, let's use it.

is it selfish to want to live at the expense of X number of lives? perhaps. is it selfish to expect and pressure or coerce an individual to die so you and yours can live? perhaps. is there a definitive answer to this question? no. you can have your opinion or published theses, but rest easy with the knowledge that chances are, we will never ever find the ultimate basis upon which such a conclusion can be reached.

in a universal sense, you can only do what you want to do. whether that's what simply makes you happy, or fulfills what you believe to be a moral imperative, it's entirely your motivation.

am i, personally, someone who believes in moral imperatives? yes, most definitely and ardently. and i feel quite comfortable when i say that to some degree, nearly everyone does.

i took the ritual option. there's no reason to justify it and most arguments for and against have been put forward on this thread already, hashed and re-hashed.

suffice to float my own feelings on the matter, Ferelden is no more a good or evil country than any other nation state, whether real or (one would hope) fiction. it claims to oppose slavery, but routinely oppresses and abuses its elven laborer underclass. the player fought through a civil war motivated in part by total and dangerous belief in self righteousness and in part by simple greed and lust for power - all in the face of a force that threatened hundreds of thousands of lives. doubtless, the bulk of these hundreds of thousands of innocent souls themselves chose to look out for number 1 and perhaps their immediate loved ones, all while expecting those more powerful than they to simply fix their problems for them. one could go on and on.

this isn't condemnation. this is simple, ordinary truth.

my Grey Warden has flaws. she was in love with Alistair and wanted a slice of happiness for herself - not that these are flaws. my Grey Warden saw in Morrigan a kindred spirit, a woman fed up with hypocrisy and ugliness cloaking itself in piousness and innocence yet still, seeing many sacrifices worth making and risks worth taking. and don't believe Morrigan clairvoyant enough to foresee her own survival through what was, objectively, a thoroughly dangerous and treacherous journey.

the blight ended. the land was saved - hoorah. Morrigan went off to live a life the only way she knew; though i like to believe our close friendship changed her just enough to see some warmth in the world.

fin.

Modifié par nmute, 05 décembre 2009 - 04:56 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

marshalleck wrote...

As someone who for many years played a Neutral Evil druid in PNP AD&D (neutral evil  in many ways having only subtle distinctions from chaotic neutral), perhaps it is easier for gamers like you and I to feel an affinity with a character like Morrigan and look past the shallow moral equivocations and see the possibilities in the rebirth of an ancient god.

As long-time player of many chaotic good characters, I agree. 

Crrash wrote...
she seemed very sincere with her "i value our friendship" lines, but theres always the possibility that she is just that good at manipulating people.

It is possible for sure. But if she's *that* good... how did she learn to, being raised in the Wilds?  This in mind, I believe she really was changed by her relationship with the PC.

Modifié par Alex Savchovsky, 05 décembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[marshalleck]

Yeah, she's changed. I mean come on, get her approval to 90+ and she giggles like a school girl every time you look at her. She has no idea what to do with herself half the time, the rest of the time she's trying to play it cool.

[Dermain]

marshalleck wrote...

Yeah, she's changed. I mean come on, get her approval to 90+ and she giggles like a school girl every time you look at her. She has no idea what to do with herself half the time, the rest of the time she's trying to play it cool.

It is also evident she changes if you take her along with Wynne and/or Leliana(I forget which one it is, I know they both make comments about it), both of them will make comments along the lines about how nice it is to see her in love, upon which Morrigan replies with something along the lines of "Love is a weakness etc", although it is implied that Wynne and/or Leliana don't believe her.

[Silensfurtim]

I still dont buy Morrigan's "change of nature". I wish our dance will continue in a big expansion.



I hope it will ****** her off when she finds out ive been looking for her in all of Thedas.



Grey Warden: "Hello, Morrigan."

Morrigan: "I told you not to follow me!"

Grey Warden: "But, I love you."

Morrigan: "You still don't get it huh?"

Grey Warden: "Where is my child? What have you done with him?"

Morrigan: "Drop dead, Warden!"

[Layn]

RunCDFirst wrote...
If that were the case, Morrigan would have been just upfront with it. I mean, what better way to get the annoying father off your back then saying he'll corrupt the baby?

i don't think so. Morrigan likes to speak her mind but also learned to hide her personal motivations. Whatever might happen with the child is her own problem and no one else needs to concern themselves with that, she feels.

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
It is possible for sure. But if
she's *that* good... how did she learn to, being raised in the Wilds?
 This in mind, I believe she really was changed by her relationship
with the PC.

well she did have as her mother to teach her and she did venture out of the wilds once in a while without trying to create any connections. She did tell of the story where a man recognized her as a malifecar but she made it look like she was a helpless maiden being attacked by a brute.
however i do believe her

marshalleck wrote...

Yeah, she's changed. I mean come on,
get her approval to 90+ and she giggles like a school girl every time
you look at her. She has no idea what to do with herself half the time,
the rest of the time she's trying to play it cool.

well it didn't go that far with my warden. they just became incredibly good (100) friends. but yeah, she changed

Silensfurtim wrote...

I hope it will ****** her off when she finds out ive been looking for her in all of Thedas.

i hope a future game/expansion recognizes that i respected Morrigans wish to be alone.
also i wish i could have asked morrigan to send a message once in a while, to know shes alright. oh and say that shes welcome back any time

[Silensfurtim]

i dunno.. the achievement was called A Dark Promise for a reason.

it should be called Happy Promise for everybody who thinks the dark ritual is a friggin happy ending.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 05 décembre 2009 - 11:57 .

[ChemicalGreen]

Just a question, I'm not sure if it has been answered before, but from the meta gaming point of view, but if Morrigan aimed for the ritual from the get go, why is she such a **** to Alistair?

With male PC this is understandable, she has 2 fresh Grey Warden to pick from for her ritual, and thus can afford to snub Alistair.

But with female PC, isn't Alistair the only male Grey Warden within Ferelden? Shouldn't it follow logic that Morrigan at least tried to be a little bit nicer to him, if she is as manipulative as some people expect her to be? I just can't envision her thinking "Oh, Alistair's a little whiny twogoodyshoes, I'll just torment and denigrate him constantly, but then I'll ask his friend/lover to persuade him to bang me to ensure I get the demonbaby I've been after this whole time, ha!" when it's much more efficient to just fake interest (and given Alistair's experience with licking lamp posts in winter possibly a few other things as well) and manipulate Alistair into caring for her.

Modifié par ChemicalGreen, 05 décembre 2009 - 12:08 .

[Layn]

ChemicalGreen wrote...

But with female PC, isn't Alistair the only male Grey Warden within Ferelden? Shouldn't it follow logic that Morrigan at least tried to be a little bit nicer to him, if she is as manipulative as some people expect her to be? I just can't envision her thinking "Oh, Alistair's a little whiny twogoodyshoes, I'll just torment and denigrate him constantly, but then I'll ask his friend/lover to persuade him to bang me to ensure I get the demonbaby I've been after this whole time, ha!" when it's much more efficient to just fake interest (and given Alistair's experience with licking lamp posts in winter possibly a few other things as well) and manipulate Alistair into caring for her.

i'd imagine morrigan weighed out the options "make sure i will have an old god baby or make fun of Alistair for being a whiny little idiot?" it's obvious what her priority was

[BroBear Berbil]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Grey Warden's don't just fight Blights. Unless those aren't Grey Wardens in Warden's Keep.

I also don't think Morrigan plans on possessing a god child. If I understand the situation correctly, when Flemeth possesses a daughter, that daughter's soul is destroyed. If Morrigan were to replicate this procedure, she would end up destroying the very soul that she worked (hard?) to get.

A good point. And if the power of the old god is in the essence and not the body she really has no reason to possess it, if she even could. Besides that, there's no reason to believe that the child would be physically immortal so a lifetime down the line she would have to jump into another body. She mentions raising the child to respect where it came from too, so I'm left to wonder how aware the kid would be of his or her origins and power.

I'm not sure what Morrigan plans to do with the old god. I don't think it's as benign as preserving it nor do I think it's as simple as wanting to possess it. I have a feeling she plans on making a sequel about it. 

[cybots]

remember the (player) killed her mother for the grimoire .. and she knows now how her mother (flemeth)lived for so long (and shewas able to switch into a dragon)maybe thats why she needed a baby to enable her to live as long as her mother and perhaps help future wardens to battle the future blights

[Silensfurtim]

perhaps help future wardens to battle the future blights

we dont know that. maybe she doesnt care for the wardens and blights at all. the reason why Morrigan joined you is because of Flemeth's and Morrigan's personal interests. Flemeth bodysnatching Morrigan, Morrigan's defense against Flemeth,  or maybe Flemeth and Morrigan are working together.

leaving you like a pair of old, soiled underwear doesnt work for me.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 05 décembre 2009 - 02:02 .