1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Alex Savchovsky]

Silensfurtim wrote...

i dunno.. the achievement was called A Dark Promise for a reason.

it should be called Happy Promise for everybody who thinks the dark ritual is a friggin happy ending.

A common misconception is that dark = evil. Come on. The night is dark. And can be the most romantic and beautiful time. Anyways, it was going to be viewed as "dark" from those lawful templar-like thinking guys.

cybots wrote...

remember the (player) killed her mother for the grimoire .. and she knows now how her mother (flemeth)lived for so long (and shewas able to switch into a dragon)maybe thats why she needed a baby to enable her to live as long as her mother and perhaps help future wardens to battle the future blights

Yea, one more Flemeth. Would be boring. Especially since Morrigan kept growing different than her mother the whole game. And after she accepted the argument "it could be you" on some occasions.

[Noxxxious]

After spending the past couple of days leisurely observing this thread, I've decided to add my 2 pieces of bronze to the matter. There seem to be 2 entrenched positions, but I think one specific point needs to be addressed, and this will be the focus of my post(s):

First, agreeing once and for all that the definitions of the words "selfish" and "selfless" are entirely opposite in nature, it is the APPLICATION of these definitions that's the issue: there is an unstated assumption that if a particular act is defined as "selfish" then it's morally or ethically bad/evil/fiendish etc. So, when people hear or think of the word selfish, they think bad or evil, or to diagram: selfish ----> bad, AUTOMATICALLY, and so people argue against the defintion of a selfish decision, because of the ASSUMPTION that it necessarily means it is a "bad" decision. Uh-uh.

This assumption must be addressed as it confounds two things, which I'll call -definition- and -qualification- Obviously an object, act, person can carry a definition, if it does, it is objective, verifiable, this much we can all agree on. The same objects, acts etc. can also carry a qualification, and this is where the issue gets muddled (and appropriately so) because morality is always subjective. If anything, this thread served to prove the extent to which divergent moral opinions can abound concerning a single issue.

SO- What I'm saying here is that anything defined as "selfish" clearly doesn't HAVE to be qualified as "bad". These are two entirely different things and realizing this fact is key to resolving some misunderstandings.
You're being asked to make decisions the entire game: from choosing the dwarven kings, to the destruction of the anvil/the ashes of andraste, EVEN the process through which you become a warden can be seen as a decision within the game's context (if your character had the option to, you could commit suicide instead of joining) and of course, the Dark Ritual. Also, I read post that reminded me what happens if you choose to go through with the self-sacrifice and are deciding between you and Alistair (in my game file) to strike the final blow. One of the options is "I'll finish it off, it's MY kill!"; hence, even the act of self-sacrifice, can be... you guessed it, SELFISH! And yet it is through your self-sacrifice that you end the blight and save Ferelden. 

Though these decisions are defined as "selfish", since you are deciding based on your own imperatives, some are good or bad, or rather are seen as good or bad, and others have indeterminate moral implications. It's the essence of being a Grey Warden, things are never simply black or white.

Once again, all this to say that: selfish =/= bad.

Modifié par Noxxxious, 05 décembre 2009 - 04:31 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Noxxxious wrote...

After spending the past couple of days leisurely observing this thread, I've decided to add my 2 pieces of bronze to the matter. There seem to be 2 entrenched positions, but I think one specific point needs to be addressed, and this will be the focus of my post(s):

First, agreeing once and for all that the definitions of the words "selfish" and "selfless" are entirely opposite in nature, it is the APPLICATION of these definitions that's the issue: there is an unstated assumption that if a particular act is defined as "selfish" then it's morally or ethically bad/evil/fiendish etc. So, when people hear or think of the word selfish, they think bad or evil, or to diagram: selfish ----> bad, AUTOMATICALLY, and so people argue against the defintion of a selfish decision, because of the ASSUMPTION that it necessarily means it is a "bad" decision. Uh-uh.

This assumption must be addressed as it confounds two things, which I'll call -definition- and -qualification- Obviously an object, act, person can carry a definition, if it does, it is objective, verifiable, this much we can all agree on. The same objects, acts etc. can also carry a qualification, and this is where the issue gets muddled (and appropriately so) because morality is always subjective. If anything, this thread served to prove the extent to which divergent moral opinions can abound concerning a single issue.

SO- What I'm saying here is that anything defined as "selfish" clearly doesn't HAVE to be qualified as "bad". These are two entirely different things and realizing this fact is key to resolving some misunderstandings.
You're being asked to make decisions the entire game: from choosing the dwarven kings, to the destruction of the anvil/the ashes of andraste, EVEN the process through which you become a warden can be seen as a decision within the game's context (if your character had the option to, you could commit suicide instead of joining) and of course, the Dark Ritual. Also, I read post that reminded me what happens if you choose to go through with the self-sacrifice and are deciding between you and Alistair (in my game file) to strike the final blow. One of the options is "I'll finish it off, it's MY kill!"; hence, even the act of self-sacrifice, can be... you guessed it, SELFISH! And yet it is through your self-sacrifice that you end the blight and save Ferelden. 

Though these decisions are defined as "selfish", since you are deciding based on your own imperatives, some are good or bad, or rather are seen as good or bad, and others have indeterminate moral implications. It's the essence of being a Grey Warden, things are never simply black or white.

Once again, all this to say that: selfish =/= bad.

"

Serious props to you my friend. That's the key. Nothing is black and white. Selfishness is not always a bad thing. It can maim one person and kill another. So can selflessness.

If you are a female romancing Alistair, it could be considered selfish NOT to let the "dark deed"" get done. For it means one of you will lose the love of your life, and have to live with that as long as you live. 

And, if you do the deed, you might have figured out a way to spare future generations of Grey Wardens the fate that would be theirs as well.

So yeah, being selfish and selfless aren't as clear cut as it seems, and the circumstances and reasons surrounding your descision have alot to do with it.

[Dark83]

Hm.
So what do we know about the darkspawn?
They come up from underground. Alistair points out as much - ignore the Chantry, because we don't trust them. All we know is the darkspawn are there, and when an Archdemon comes about, it's a Blight. Further, we know that the Archdemon, when killed, merely transfers to another tainted body. We don't know this process, but we do know the effects.
If the Archdemon transfers to a Grey Warden, they both die. If it transfers to something else, it lives on. (Yes?)
We know (from Morrigan) that the transfer can go to the kid, and be purified in the process.
This means (if we believe Morrigan) that what is being transferred is a corrupted/tainted Old God soul.

So, what does this mean? Assume we believe the basis of Morrigan's ritual.
We know for a fact that if there is no Old God, there is no Archdemon. We know this because purified Archdemon = Old God, and Corrupted/tainted Old God = Archdemon. This is undeniable fact, given that we are believing the premise of Morrigan's ritual.

So, given that we believe Morrigan, it is fact that by accepting this ritual, we are introducing the probablity of a Blight from this particular Old God, however slight. This probability, however small, is non-zero. Which is infintely higher than zero.

Agree/Disagree?

[Indoril_Nerevar]

Morrigan seduced me! She made me do it! AUAGH!

[fantasypisces]

I just want to say I don't agree with the whole "Morrigan doesn't want the Warden to follow because his/her taint may corrupt the baby." I thought because the Warden's survived the taint, they weren't corruptable/contagious until they here 'the call'. But even then, they don't become a full darkspawn, they become sort of half human half darkspawn. The way I think about that is similar to how Ruck acts in the deep roads. Still clearly a dwarf, but twisted and insane from all his thoughts.



Anyway, I don't think the warden would corrupt the baby. I still believe the "don't follow me, you will never see me again" was just put in by Bioware to make it a tough decision and set up a squal.



I want a paid download content to hunt for Morrigan though, if you did the deed, keeping in mind whether you romanced her or not. If you didn't do the deed, then it could be searching for the other character you romanced, and helping them with a problem. Such as with Leliana, the cult of andraste survived and she needs help defending the ashes.

[Servant of Nature]

Dark, that is my thought as well. This child has the spirit of the Dragon of Beauty... it's logical to think that this child would call to the darkspawn just as the remaining Old Gods do. Perhaps Morrigan wants to control an army of darkspawn, perhaps she feels that Blights are necessary to keep Thedas in check... it's quite an interesting thought, and undeniably a foolish choice for a Warden to make, assuming your character would be logical enough to think that far ahead... then again if your character is in love with Alistair, logic probably has little to do with your decision as well. Nonetheless it is selfish and irresponsible, without a doubt... I also completely hated Morrigan after that. "Oh yes I see you as a friend, even a sister, I will always value your friendship... oh, by the way? I'm going to wait for you to find out they you or your lover could possibly die in the battle against the Archdemon, and then prey on your emotions! LOVE YOU SIS!" Ugh.

[MassEffect762]

I hate lame cliffhangers(dark ritual), especially ones that will take WHO KNOWS(2-3 years?) how long to be answered.

[mrao]

I dont think that Morrigan's plan has anything to do with controlling darkspawn. Now that doesn't mean I think what she is doing is good, but I don't think it will end up being so cut and dry or straight up evil as trying to control a horde of darkspawn. Infact, since darkspawn have shown no indication ever of listening to humans, this would be a bit of a stretch (though I suppose no more of a stretch than any other theory since our real information about the ritual's purpose is zero).

She does say that she wants to "give people something real to believe in". If she indeed wants to do this, then darkspawn are at the very bottom of her list of potential allies. This makes me think that she wants to raise the child to provide a figure that can be used to oppose the chantry, maybe linked with the dragon cult. A religious conflict would be more interesting to me than Morrigan turning out to be some generic power hungry villain. Well she could still be that, but I hope she can find more interesting ways to be villainous than controlling darkspawn.

My thoughts are that the child will simply be a powerful mage who Morrigan will look to rally people around. Some people view Andraste as just being a particularly potent mage who managed to convince a bunch of people that she was favored by the one true God.

Of course, I think she and her child will have the attention of darkspawn whether she wants it or not. Perhaps this is the reason she would return to the PC for help in a sequel (should he/she have agreed to the ritual to begin with).

EDIT: Perhaps I am reading too much into this, but when you ask Morrigan about shapeshifting, she says that in order to learn how to change into an animal, you must spend a lot of time with them and "copy their soul".  Flemeth turning into a dragon is what made me think of the dragon cult, to learn such a spell she would have to be very familiar with them.

Modifié par mrao, 06 décembre 2009 - 04:29 .

[fantasypisces]

I agree Mrao, I think she is going to raise the child as a powerful mage, as a figurehead to something other than the chantry (thank god, I got sick of "maker this, maker that, demons, evil, abomination, maker, maker, maker). In which case, my PC approves, go Morrigan.

[MassEffect762]

Whatever the reason it will be full of Morrigans "retarded" way of thinking. She is no paragon, I don't see her caring THAT much about the freedom of thought and expression of the World.



She has a clear track record of her views, charity and good will is not on that list. David has his work cut out for him on this one.

[Silensfurtim]

What do you guys think about the entries of Arl Foreshadow?



Raising spirits: Offspring and the Fade

-Terrible two's indeed!



Looks like its related to Morrigan and her child.

[mrao]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Whatever the reason it will be full of Morrigans "retarded" way of thinking. She is no paragon, I don't see her caring THAT much about the freedom of thought and expression of the World.

She has a clear track record of her views, charity and good will is not on that list. David has his work cut out for him on this one.

It would have been nice to see more concrete character development with Morrigan, regarding the final scenario. The player is able to break through her emotional barriers and establish a possibly loving connection with this cold and distant woman, but in the end she sticks to her agenda, and leaves if you don't want to be a part of that. If we do get to see Morrigan in an expansion, I would love for there to be some opportunities for the PC to influence her a little bit more. Perhaps not as obvious as it is with Alistair or Leliana, but it would be interesting to see her character grow.

On another note, does the ritual make anyone else wonder what exactly King Maric did with Flemeth when they were alone in the woods?

Modifié par mrao, 06 décembre 2009 - 04:58 .

[Layn]

fantasypisces wrote...
(thank god, I got sick of "maker this, maker that, demons, evil, abomination, maker, maker, maker).

ironic that you say "thank god" when you are complaining about people in ferelden referencing the maker so much. and demons and abominations have nothing to do with the maker.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Allattar1 wrote...

As I have said Lotion your logic is flawed and fawlty, and consists of fallacies.
No point discussing it further until you realise that.

Bollocks. You didn't disprove any of my points so far, and nor will you. Cause you can't.


Thing is, you take everything Morrigan tells you as facts - when they are not. And you regard things that are shown to be true as guessing. You got things mixed up.

Yes, Morrigan told oyu theh baby will be unharmed. That's hte ONLY source of info, a questionable one at that. And you'd willingly subject your child to a ritual with jsut that?

So I really have to ask you this: Do oyu have kids? If no, how old are you? I ask cause I see you don't have a parental bone in your body...Heh..looks like you and Morrigna really are a fine match.


I really don't get it whyyou insist with this foolishnes.

If you're tryin g to save Fereleden fro mthe Blight, not taking the ritual is the more pragmatic/sensible option.
If you're interested into morals, it is a more moral option (because of the baby).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Morrigan, as a lot of us has guessed, is chaotic neutral.

This is highly debatable. F'course, D&D definitions are pretty much useless, since they tend to push people into cartoony, moustache-twirling villany, or super-goody goodnes.

DA:O characters are more like normal people.


Also, this thread is about the inherent nature of the ritual. How your character (any character) viewed it pretty much irrelevant. Doing (or not doing) the ritual out of spite, hate, love or whatever - that doesn't really tell us anything about the ritual itself, but more of hte characters. And htere are better threads to discuss your characters.

I will say this though, to me it's fairly obvious why Morrigan can
never let you find her: your character is tainted, and could very
likely cause the reborn old god to become tainted as well, or put them
all at risk of discovery by the darkspawn. Perhaps there is more to it,
but it's in no way an unreasonable assumption. As for her behaviour, is
there any nice way on the eve of someone's potential death in combat to
tell them that their love could mean the corruption of their child and
the ruination of their dreams? Not really. So Morrigan leaves you with
the hope that the promise of one day finding her will sustain you
through the battle to come (remember she gives approval for supplying
the knights in Redcliffe with the medals of false hope and protection)
and takes her leave, but never forgets you--hence feeling her sorrow
and regret through the ring.

Like I've said many times. Morrigan is *not* as wicked as Flemeth.

Possible theroy, and makes sense. But nothing to really confirm it. This is not fact.

Hm...however..if that is indeed the case..Why was she so evasive? Why did she tell you? Why does she want to keep the details of the ritual and what she plans to do with YOUR child for herself?
I find it hard she does it to spare your feelings (she doesn't seem the type to give a damn). Does she think you as a father have no rights to the child?

Yeah, she's changed. I mean come on, get her approval to 90+ and she
giggles like a school girl every time you look at her. She has no idea
what to do with herself half the time, the rest of the time she's
trying to play it cool.

"There's two things men are allways willing to belive about beutifull womna: one, that they are weak and need protection, and wto, that tehy fancy them"  or something like that.
So yeah..Morrigan *could* be just playing you.

Excellent post fantasypisces. As someone who for many years played a
Neutral Evil druid in PNP AD&D (neutral evil  in many ways having
only subtle distinctions from chaotic neutral), perhaps it is easier
for gamers like you and I to feel an affinity with a character like
Morrigan and look past the shallow moral equivocations and see the
possibilities in the rebirth of an ancient god.

That's fine as motivation for the character, but doesn't change the fact that your'e risking thousands of lives to get your kicks, and that the Old God in question is an unknown. Ergo, a rather ill-thought decision.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 06 décembre 2009 - 12:38 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

OnionXI wrote...
I also don't think Morrigan plans on possessing a god child. If I understand the situation correctly, when Flemeth possesses a daughter, that daughter's soul is destroyed. If Morrigan were to replicate this procedure, she would end up destroying the very soul that she worked (hard?) to get.

Good point. However, note taht magic can "bleed" into itmes and change bodies. IT is possible that if hte old gods souls spends enought time in the body, the body itself will become far mroe powerfull than any normal human body ever could.

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Possible theroy, and makes sense. But nothing to really confirm it. This is not fact.

Hm...however..if
that is indeed the case..Why was she so evasive? Why did she tell you?
Why does she want to keep the details of the ritual and what she plans
to do with YOUR child for herself?
I find it hard she does it to
spare your feelings (she doesn't seem the type to give a damn). Does
she think you as a father have no rights to the child?

Well I think the answer to those questions is two-fold:

Whatever her ultimate goal is, her future plans don't involve you and never really did beyond the ritual. Maybe she felt sympathy, maybe not. More importantly though, and somewhat to the discredit of Morrigan and the end of the game overall, they had to push the cliffhanger. If they just allowed Morrigan to reveal her plans in their entirety, the plot for any sequels would be blown wide open. Morrigan has many secrets the writers don't want revealed just yet and the character unfortunately fell victim to a rather contrived hook, to leave people guessing and begging for more until the sequel is ready to go. If there's any speculation I'm willing to seriously get behind, it's that.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 12:46 .

[Curlain]

mrao wrote...

MassEffect762 wrote...

Whatever the reason it will be full of Morrigans "retarded" way of thinking. She is no paragon, I don't see her caring THAT much about the freedom of thought and expression of the World.

She has a clear track record of her views, charity and good will is not on that list. David has his work cut out for him on this one.

It would have been nice to see more concrete character development with Morrigan, regarding the final scenario. The player is able to break through her emotional barriers and establish a possibly loving connection with this cold and distant woman, but in the end she sticks to her agenda, and leaves if you don't want to be a part of that. If we do get to see Morrigan in an expansion, I would love for there to be some opportunities for the PC to influence her a little bit more. Perhaps not as obvious as it is with Alistair or Leliana, but it would be interesting to see her character grow.

On another note, does the ritual make anyone else wonder what exactly King Maric did with Flemeth when they were alone in the woods?

I agree, as someone mentioned earlier here there seems to be Morrigan the character who you can interact with and establish a relationship of various sorts (romantic, friendship, emnity etc) and then there is Morrigan the plot device.  Because she becomes central to certain parts of DA's story, such as here, it leads to Morrigan the plot device often seeming to be worlds appart from Morrigan the character because none of the character development (good or bad) that has taken place while she has been with you seems to hardly appear at all (apart from a few throwaway lines), almost as if she had just come from Flemeth's hut and not be alonside your PC for nigh on 2 yrs.  I know due to the centrality of her to these plot events and the fact there are a large variety of paths her character could have developed (or seemed to have developed as she could being putting on an act the whole time, who knows) that with this and other scenes needing to take place, they couldn't really be catered fully for easily.  But it dose create this dissonance between the one Morrigan you usually interact with and the plot point Morrigan, it's like their different women sometimes (but then, mabye that's the point and she really is snowballing everyone )

[Layn]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I find it hard she does it to spare your feelings (she doesn't seem the type to give a damn). Does she think you as a father have no rights to the child?

in my game thats Alistairs problem. well and my wardens problem since they are in love and married and all. But it's not his child. It's like donating sperm.

this is all just about if you trust Morrigan. and with all that they went through together, they had to trust each and formed a strong bond. as i said before,morrigan said the child will be fine and they wouldn't endanger ferelden. i have no reason to doubt her.
In other playthroughs Morrigan probably doesn't form a bond and really does have bad intentions or at least won't care if the world suffers.

and then there is Morrigan the plot device.  Because she becomes
central to certain parts of DA's story, such as here, it leads to
Morrigan the plot device often seeming to be worlds appart from
Morrigan the character because none of the character development (good
or bad) that has taken place while she has been with you seems to
hardly appear at all (apart from a few throwaway lines)

it seemed pretty consistent to me. she had her mind set on doig this, but she did regret leaving everyone. again probably because of everyones different playthrough we got different experiences and opinions on it

Modifié par Crrash, 06 décembre 2009 - 01:42 .

[cybots]

whatever the case .. there are 2 more old gods and 2 more blights sometime in the future regardless of morrigan (think 2 expansions)

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
"There's two things men are allways willing to belive about beutifull womna: one, that they are weak and need protection, and wto, that tehy fancy them"  or something like that.
So yeah..Morrigan *could* be just playing you.

This point is brought up every once in a while, but I have a question about it.
OK, let's say Morrigan "knows how to pull men's strings" - although she does not seem *that* good at the times that Alistair manages to ****** her off with only two lines about her nose - but let us just assume it. However, there is also Wynne. The all-wise, Jedi Master-like Wynne. She is neither inexperienced, nor a man. And she starts all suspicious about Morrigan, yet she does change her mind, if I remember correctly. Is Morrigan *that* good? 

[Allattar1]

Lotion, go back page 20, I picked apart your fallacies, and named them for what they where.

[themorgueescapee]

This might be because I've just read Taroticum, but the old gods were probably not evil as such, more likely the maker is. The maker banned the old gods because the maker is a flawed patron diety who wants power and authority. Freeing the old god was not any more evil than killing it.

****, the more I think about it the more like Kult the whole thing is

[Dark83]

Allattar1 wrote...

Lotion, go back page 20, I picked apart your fallacies, and named them for what they where.

Pick apart my last post then, where the only sources of information I used are things we know to be true, or are assumed true as they form the basis for Morrigan's ritual.

The pragmatic, calculated approach is still to not do the ritual, unless you lack confidence in your ability to kill the Archdemon. Given the legions and bad ass creatures I've handedly slain along the way, I'm pretty darn sure of success.