1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Bhatair]

Yes, seems pretty selfish and irresponsible to me.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Dark83 wrote...

Allattar1 wrote...

Lotion, go back page 20, I picked apart your fallacies, and named them for what they where.

Pick apart my last post then, where the only sources of information I used are things we know to be true, or are assumed true as they form the basis for Morrigan's ritual.

The pragmatic, calculated approach is still to not do the ritual, unless you lack confidence in your ability to kill the Archdemon.

It only matters if you fight the Archdemon and win anyways. And that will be some sort of proof you can defeat it, no?
Besides, the pragmatic approach is not always is correct. In epic stories like this, the dramatically appropriate choice is often the better one. And it WAS dramatically appropriate to free an Old God from its prison.

[Noxxxious]

Dark83 wrote...


The pragmatic, calculated approach is still to not do the ritual

Saying the sacrifice is the pragmatic approach is one way of looking at it, or as lotion puts it, it's the "logical" choice to make simply because (if i understand your reasoning correctly) in weighing both choices (sacrifice and dark ritual), it's the one with the most knowns and the least unknowns, whereas the ritual has the least knowns and the most unknowns of the two. Is that sufficient enough to make it the most logical/pragmatic choice though?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's less logical than the dark ritual, i'm just saying that simply having more information about one of the choices isn't ENOUGH to make the -most- logical choice. Having one bit of information about one as opposed to the other can still make that choice the most logical one: It all depends on your purpose/objective/reason for making the decision.

SO if your OBJECTIVE is to quell the blight, then i really don't see how it can be argued that the ritual is a more logical a decision than the sacrifice,because of the reasons mentioned earlier. But obviously, if ending the blight is less of a priority, and one's priority might be to further Morrigan's agenda, or survive to accomplish more things etc, then the ritual clearly becomes the most logical choice, as it's the only one of the two that allows you to meet your goal. As many people have argued, the blight is ended to some extent obviously since the archdemon is dead, and you get to live... It isn't the BEST means of ENSURING no more harm can come from the source of this *particular* blight, but it is the most logical choice to make if you've a more, personal agenda then ending the blight. That's the thing that's hard to grasp is that the decisions in and of themselves need a context in which they'll matter. To some any  choice that would potentially mitigate your ability to end the blight is out of the question, to others.........

Modifié par Noxxxious, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:55 .

[Layn]

Dark83 wrote...

The pragmatic, calculated approach is still to not do the ritual, unless you lack confidence in your ability to kill the Archdemon. Given the legions and bad ass creatures I've handedly slain along the way, I'm pretty darn sure of success.

we are talking about the most baddest of bad creatures, an archdemon, and an entire blight. in previous blights they used an army of grey wardens with GRIFFONS (!!!). I won't take my chances and expect my small group of adventurers will prevail (which of course they would, this being a game).

[ahnnajade]

Yes. It's selfish.



Duh.

[Travirius]

Yes it's selfish because Grey Wardens are trained to stop and sacrifice them selfs to stop a blight, Plus you have a shorting life span with the Taint anyways so I don't see the point in trying to live longer.

[Curlain]

Yep, you have a point there, better to go out in a blaze of glory in your prime (and your PC is probably not gonna top slaying the Archdemon, though we haven't seen the expansion or sequel yet so mabye I'm speaking to soon ), rather then wait to begin wasting away into ghouldem and have to go die a loney death in the Deep Roads and have the darkspawn feast on your corpse.

Die young, leave a good-looking coprse and have a glorious statue made of you I say (hmm, guess this could be thought selfish from an ego perspective, oh well, who cares, it's a cool ending none the less )

Modifié par Curlain, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:43 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Travirius wrote...

Yes it's selfish because Grey Wardens are trained to stop and sacrifice them selfs to stop a blight, Plus you have a shorting life span with the Taint anyways so I don't see the point in trying to live longer.

The Grey Wardens are not aware of any alternative methods to stopping the Blight.  Either way, you will stop the Blight if you beat the game.

[Layn]

Travirius wrote...

Yes it's selfish because Grey Wardens are trained to stop and sacrifice them selfs to stop a blight, Plus you have a shorting life span with the Taint anyways so I don't see the point in trying to live longer.

grey wardens usually are, but THIS grey warden only drank darkspawn blood and thats all he/she had from the grey warden education. plus staying alive means that he/she can go to the deep roads and slaughter more darkspawn.

[MassEffect762]

Crrash wrote...

Travirius wrote...

Yes it's selfish because Grey Wardens are trained to stop and sacrifice them selfs to stop a blight, Plus you have a shorting life span with the Taint anyways so I don't see the point in trying to live longer.

grey wardens usually are, but THIS grey warden only drank darkspawn blood and thats all he/she had from the grey warden education. plus staying alive means that he/she can go to the deep roads and slaughter more darkspawn.

And to quote Duncans annoying arse comment after killing the ArchDemon: "but at what cost?"

[tigrina]

MassEffect762 wrote...
And to quote Duncans annoying arse comment after killing the ArchDemon: "but at what cost?"

I wondered about that, actually. Why does Duncan do the epilogue voice? Wasn't *he* supposed to be dead too?
Anyway, that "but at what cost?" is with all endings right?

[The Capital Gaultier]

tigrina wrote...

MassEffect762 wrote...
And to quote Duncans annoying arse comment after killing the ArchDemon: "but at what cost?"

I wondered about that, actually. Why does Duncan do the epilogue voice? Wasn't *he* supposed to be dead too?
Anyway, that "but at what cost?" is with all endings right?

Duncan's voice actor doubles as narrator, from what I can see.  Very little work for a full narrator.

And yes, the, "...at what cost?" is just a segue to the next scene, for everyone.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 07 décembre 2009 - 03:26 .

[Silensfurtim]

or maybe Ducan is still alive

[MajorStranger]

I don't think the Grey warden could do a damn thing about my choice for two reason:



1) Alistair won't let it, being king has it's perks



2)Being his queen, my character won't be persecuted.





I know It might seem selfish but this ritual is the only way to have an happy ending with a female Human noble (meaning she marry Alistair and together they rule with justice over ferelden.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Crrash wrote...
in my game thats Alistairs problem. well and my wardens problem since they are in love and married and all. But it's not his child. It's like donating sperm.

All children come to be by "donating sperm". That is a moot point.

Allattar1 wrote...

Lotion, go back page 20, I picked apart your fallacies, and named them for what they where.

Nope, you didn't. You just posted a whole lot of redicolous assertions. You still can't separate known facts from what you'd liek to be facts.

[Jobrill]

I dunno. In most of my origins, I joined the Wardens because I was forcibly conscripted or had no choice. In some of them, my PC is sort of resentful that he was never told about the exact downsides of the taint. So. Why should I have to jump through all these hoops to sacrifice myself? I want to LIVE, and if Morrigan can help me do that, so be it. Sure, I could put Alistair out there, but in most of my playthroughs, he's either my bro or my romantic interest, and thus I don't want him dead either.



Is it selfish? Maybe. I think the main question though is, given what happens (origin where you are recruited into the Wardens due to a great personal tragedy that leaves you no other choice, not being told about the Joining and the nightmares and the 30 years to live, not having the Grey Warden support network and instead being thrust into command, etc), I'm not sure it's a given that the PC should be expected to follow the letter of Grey Warden law.

[fantasypisces]

Travirius wrote...

Yes it's selfish because Grey Wardens are trained to stop and sacrifice them selfs to stop a blight, Plus you have a shorting life span with the Taint anyways so I don't see the point in trying to live longer.

Yeah except all our characters did was drink some blood, survived, then had everything thrust on us without knowing really why or how to deal with it.  You are told THE NIGHT before you fight the archdemon that one of you will have to die. Since being a Grey Warden was just thrust upon you, you know really nothing abou the order, would you seriously, and as easily as you did in the game, be able to say 'oh sure, I'll take the final blow'? There is a reason that a senior Grey Warden is picked to do it. Obviously their time is almost up anyway, but most importantly a senior Grey Warden is picked because they are fully reconciled to what they must do.

In the case of my character, he wasn't reconciled to the fact that in order to win, he or his best friend would have to die. So Morrigan's option was the best, a no brainer. The blight is ended, myself and my best-friend survive, Morrigan (my love) leaves not completely hating me, and I can always track her down. Plus my character had no problem giving an Old God access to be reborn (having the view, that it isn't actually a real innocent, cute, cuddly baby, till much later in development). That gets into a morale issue, but I am getting off track.
Anyway, my character was not reconciled to it, because our characters knew nothing abou the Grey Wardens, only what Alistair knew, which was also limited. So no, my character was not ready to suddenly die heroically if there was another option. Now, if Morrigan's offer was not available would I have gone through with it. Of course, the blight needs to be stopped. And you know what, my character stopped it.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 07 décembre 2009 - 10:59 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Travirius wrote...

Yes it's selfish because Grey Wardens are trained to stop and sacrifice them selfs to stop a blight, Plus you have a shorting life span with the Taint anyways so I don't see the point in trying to live longer.

A very good reason why it is stupid to take that choice out of selfishness.
I still do not understand is it so hard to consider other possible reasons behind it? Like, say, bringing back an untainted Old God?

[Raxtoren]

Bhatair wrote...

Yes, seems pretty selfish and irresponsible to me.

Yes, because recruiting people who has no choice in the matter to the order is "okay".
Basically I got saved, so I could kill myself?
When playing (H)noble you dont know what happend to your brother, and if my family is dead, then what good does Ferelden being saved?
Duncan even knows I might be the last Cousland, and even then get to drink what will kill me sooner or later.
Thats helping me?
No, I rather wait for reinforcement and end the blight occuring now, and await some real grey wardens.

[fantasypisces]

Yeah pretty much.



Stop the blight and bring an untainted Old God back into existence. My character was all for it.

[Lughsan35]

Riordan specifically says that the choice typically goes to the eldest Grey Warden as a matter of course. So he will take the final blow. Sadly he doesn't reach the tower top with you.



The Ritual is all about NOT having the Grey Warden's go into extinction with you and Alister in this realm alone. Its also all about having two young lookers on.. keeping on eye out for the next 2 blights...



There were 7 old gods... now 5 blights...yup that leaves 2 blights... at least...as there is the possibility that the old gods of the humans are NOT the same old gods of the elves...

[Layn]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

All children come to be by "donating sperm". That is a moot point.

...

seriously?
SERIOUSLY?
you know what i meant. sperm donation. Giving some of the "portable DNA" you produce anyway to some woman or couple with the agreement to have no claim on the child. It's a normal and good thing nowadays. and this with morrigan was just the same.

Lughsan35 wrote...

Riordan specifically says that the
choice typically goes to the eldest Grey Warden as a matter of course.
So he will take the final blow. Sadly he doesn't reach the tower top
with you.

and then Alistair became the senior warden. I told him everything i knew about the ritual and he agreed to make a baby with morrigan. The senior warden decided to do it. Of course afterwards that exact same senior warden is too afraid of telling the other wardens what he did... I'd imagine this thread is what would happen if the wardens found out.

Modifié par Crrash, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:22 .

[Allattar1]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Lotion, go back page 20, I picked apart your fallacies, and named them for what they where.
[/quote]

Nope, you didn't. You just posted a whole lot of redicolous assertions. You still can't separate known facts from what you'd liek to be facts.


[/quote]

Assertions you cannot counter, I showed you where your fallacies are in your statements.  Plenty of them, what I am pointing out, is you have no facts, you have assumptions, and a stupid risk analysis based on your own belief.   Well I as a thinking logical being, have my own assumptions and risk analysis on my beliefs, most of what you call fact is assumption. 
It is not a logical outcome you have, but subjective! Thats what I am trying to lead you to see.

Plus if we take your attitude to its extreme.
Any child can grow up to become a monster. Any child has the potential to be a killer and take someones life, worse they could become a killer who enjoys taking life, addicted to it and becoming a serial killer.  Or worse still, they become a tyrant, the likes of Napolean, or Uday Hussain.

So the logic you follow says thou shalt never have children becuase of the risk associated with it.

I can do more on this also.

Is saving a life a good thing? in a world where souls are real, is saving even one soul an act of kindness, an act that is worthwhile? 
Is the sould of a God worth less, more or the same as any individual? is being able to save the sould of a god worth the risk?
Your decision is to condemn Urthemials soul, or to save it. 

The other points here,
Morrigan has a duty, it is stated that she has a duty, and where it not for that things could be different between your pc and her. If you followed that route in the game. 
Someone who has a duty is not someone who is out for there own power in that matter.  Remember that Morrigan is on the whole truthful, she may not reveal all, but she is truthful.
If she was in it for her own power she would not refer to it as duty.   Duty does not imply nefarious schemes, duty implies something else.
If she wanted a new blight? why end the old one? 

So can it be a selfish act? yes, but there is a chance there is some redemption in there for an old soul.

[fantasypisces]

Allattar1 wrote...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is saving a life a good thing? in a world where souls are real, is saving even one soul an act of kindness, an act that is worthwhile? 
Is the sould of a God worth less, more or the same as any individual? is being able to save the sould of a god worth the risk?
Your decision is to condemn Urthemials soul, or to save it. 

The other points here,
Morrigan has a duty, it is stated that she has a duty, and where it not for that things could be different between your pc and her. If you followed that route in the game. 
Someone who has a duty is not someone who is out for there own power in that matter.  Remember that Morrigan is on the whole truthful, she may not reveal all, but she is truthful.
If she was in it for her own power she would not refer to it as duty.   Duty does not imply nefarious schemes, duty implies something else.
If she wanted a new blight? why end the old one? 

So can it be a selfish act? yes, but there is a chance there is some redemption in there for an old soul.

---------------------------------
(sorry, the reply isn't quoting you for some reason)


Interesting, I agree with you in this thread, but not in another. I see good arguments in the future! Nicely put, anyway.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 07 décembre 2009 - 02:12 .

[Allattar1]

Dark83 wrote...

Logic, eh? Let's try this.

Objective facts that we should all be able to agree on.
1) If an Old God is corrupted, he becomes an Archdemon.
2) The Body/Vessel of the Archdemon is Irrelevant. (Right? He'll just jump to another body? That's why the Grey Wardens do the Joining and sacrifice themselves?)
3) One Blight per Archdemon.
2) = 4) It is the Old God's Soul/Spirit that is corrupted, not the Body/Vessel (dragon) in which it resides. (If 2 is wrong, so is 4, so factcheck me.)
1) + 3) = 5) One Blight per Old God Soul corrupted.
6) Via sacrifice, the corrupted Old God's Soul (the Archdemon) is destroyed.
7) There are two Old Gods remaining.
7) + 3) = 8) There are up to two Blights remaining.
9) If the Dark Ritual is done, the Old God soul survives in another Vessel/Body (baby).
3) + 1) + 9)  = 10) There are up to three Blights remaining.

No Dark Ritual = 8) There are up to two Blights remaining.
Dark Ritual = 10) There are up to three Blights remaining.

1) True
2)True
3)True
4)True
5)True
7)True
8)True
9)True - But

A grey warden undergoes the blood ritual, in this manner the taint is contained/slowed.
We dont know how an Old god is contaminated or effected with the blight.  It might be like a zombie thing, one bite and bam archdemon.
It may be more like the rhyme that you hear in the deep roads. 
Either way we have no confirmation that an old god reborn into a body that has the blood of a grey warden is susceptible. 
The tain passes with blood yes, but then corrupts the soul.  What it shows is a connection with blood and soul. 

I will agree that this is an unknown completely here.  I will also agree it could mean another possible blight or might not.

But like above, you save a soul, and I am convinced that Morrigan has a reason for this.  It is a plot reason hence why it cannot be revealed till the next episode, just like any tv show or film.