1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Alex Savchovsky]

Nevermind.
Crrash already said it better than I would.

Modifié par Alex Savchovsky, 07 décembre 2009 - 07:54 .

[Volourn]

I don't think it's selfish at all. My character had no reason not to trust Morrigan. I beleive her stated goal was the truth, and that wanted to bring a return of the old god (who happens to be the god of love, btw), and I don't know how that could be evil.



On top of this, making loved with your girlfriend is not a crime and since i had been doing it all game, *shrug*, no ahrm and doling it again.





"Reasons are not all that matters. Whatever your goal may be, you do it to achieve that goal. And you're putting a child into MORRIGANS hands. That alone is a crime, even if it were a perfectly normal child.

In this case you're practicly sacrificing you child for goal X (eather it's living longer or brining back an old god) - i'ts still a deuchebag move."



No, it isn't. It's a good move. I care about saving as many souls as posisble. Nothing that we know in game clearly points to the old gods being evil beyond redemption. Remember, the Arch demon is basically a darksapwn tainted being much like that crazy dwarf in the Deep Raods? Did your 'good' character kill him even though he actually posed no danger to you? He was effected by the darkspawn taint as well.



The only worry I have (and everyone should have), is that the result of Morrigan's Blood Ritual is 100% in their hands which means in DA2 we could learn it's a good or bad thing. I'm hoping that BIO let's us in some fashion decide the outcome of that - ie. we have some influence over the Morrigan, and the baby in DA2 and depending on the PC, it could end up being a good or bad thing.



Only crime her eis your labeling it as a crime. It isn't.

[XOGHunter246]

believing is not knowing look at her mother she couldn't even trust her own mother then we should trust her, that witch.

[Alex Savchovsky]

XOGHunter246 wrote...

believing is not knowing look at her mother she couldn't even trust her own mother then we should trust her, that witch.

Is it not this what Good is actually about? To trust, care, be compassionate, love... and not only those who give you the same in return, but ultimately everyone?

[Volourn]

STUPID SPAM

Modifié par Volourn, 07 décembre 2009 - 08:17 .

[Volourn]

Because even when she disagreed with some of my decisions, she decided to stand by me. It's not about 'knowing'; it's about 'trust'. Maybe I amde the wrong chocie maybe I didn't. The PC puts his faith in lots of people during the game, many of them way less trustworthy than Morrigan.



I played the Dwarf Noble, I feel Morrigan's pain over her mother's planned betrayal as I felt the stab in my back by my own brother. We connected over this, and will take on all comers.



Old Bat Wynne tried to talk me out of the relationship, but even she came around and admitted that she belived Morrigan did in fact care about me. If Wynne, who loathes Morrigan, can see that Morrigan is indeed in love with the PC, that says a lot of good things.



I'm sure Morri didn't tell me everything, but I gots the faith in her. My faith in BIO to do the right thing in DA2, though... kinda shaky. LOLZ

[dude10321]

Do you know what Morrigan plans for the child? Morrigan may be sneaky and manipulative, but that describes just about every woman on the planet. I personally think that Morrigan can be trusted. Letting the mother of the child take him/her away isn't a douchbag move. Letting it grow up without knowing his/her father is, but like I said, I plan on tracking her down even though she didn't want me to. By your logic, evey guy that deposits sperm in a spermbank is a douchbag.

[Lastrights]

I have wrapped the game 4 times and gone through every possible twist with Morrigan and all I can say is re-read all the stuff you have on Flemith and her daughters. Even try not ever talking to her at all, ever. . . do not even enter anything with her none of her quests. I do not know if it is a bioware glitch or the way it is supposed hash out or not. I was left with many questions and I got quite a few answers too. The foreshadowing of possible events to come is pretty good.

[XOGHunter246]

she seem a little shady to me i don't trust her, she probably another flemeth.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Volourn wrote...
No, it isn't. It's a good move. I care about saving as many souls as posisble. Nothing that we know in game clearly points to the old gods being evil beyond redemption. Remember, the Arch demon is basically a darksapwn tainted being much like that crazy dwarf in the Deep Raods? Did your 'good' character kill him even though he actually posed no danger to you? He was effected by the darkspawn taint as well.

Most hints in the game point towards the olds gods being evil. No clear evidence, but it's not like you have any evidence AT ALL that the Old God will do any good.
The Calling book clearly states the darkspawn heard the Old God's call and that's why they seek it out. Not to mention that anyone tained doesn't turn all crazy and evil immediately.

Either way, Morrigan is unfit to be a mother and you can't really belive she would tech the Old God to be good. Morrigan is in the "might makes right" camp. Even if it is for "the greater good" (which is highly questionable in this case), giving a child to Morrigan is still a stupid and despicable thing to do, especailly knowing Morrigan.

So no, not a good move.
Unless you consider sticking your tounge into the electric outlet a good thing, casue Morrigan told you so.

[BazookaDre]

Thinking on the endings, I just had a thought. What if the demon that Flemeth made a deal with was in fact an old god..Morrigan was concerned that she would return despite killing her. Morrigan probably intends the same for herself. Now if this is true...really think on it...that means the Grey Wardens might have chosen this 'ritual' path before and merely chose not to write it in their history.



To me, the "dark ritual' is not a bad end nor really all that selfish. To be honest, if you really really think on it. There is no choice in this game that is purely good or bad. The death of your Grey Warden, his/her absense from the world they just shaped through the course of the game leads to greater strife and turmoil. Having Alistair die..or even Loghain die means the loss of someone important to Fereldan ... someone that could have been pivotal in keeping the nation together. ( Though Loghain is iffy on that point). When it comes down to it, your Warden ended the Blight, Mission Accomplished.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dude10321 wrote...
By your logic, evey guy that deposits sperm in a spermbank is a douchbag.

If the mother in question is Morrigan, then yes.

[Dark83]

Crrash wrote...

we are talking about the most baddest of bad creatures, an archdemon, and an entire blight. in previous blights they used an army of grey wardens with GRIFFONS (!!!). I won't take my chances and expect my small group of adventurers will prevail (which of course they would, this being a game).

Eh, my grey Warden, two non-Grey Wardens, and a dog, killed legions of demons (that Templers needed entire regiments to do), went to the Deep Roads and wiped out hordes, and basically massacared armies. Now we have 4-5 armies behind us on top of our bad selves.
Yes, this is a game, but narratively, given what we've done (in the context of the game), it's not really that hard to be supremely confident in your badassedness.

Regardless, given that my points seem to have been accepted by the community, it is impossible to argue that it is the pragmatic, logical (long term) decision to do the Dark Ritual.

Everything else is up to trusting Morrigan.

Her game-long deception and her desire to wipe out the entire tower not because they're potentially abominations or blood mages, but just because they don't share her views shows a fundemental level of violent intolerance and deceitfulness that would be extremely dangerous to the world at large if such is imparted to a child with god-like powers.

I like Morrigan, but I certainly wouldn't trust her with such power, given her attitude and conceits.

[tausra]

The Entire tower would wipe out every mage or shaman or spiritual leader that wasn't willing to wear their leash and roll over on command. I could completely understand why the mages would be upset about being forced into a secured, walled and guarded camp, where all their numbers are concentrated, but so very few mages are.

[RunCDFirst]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
Is it not this what Good is actually about? To trust, care, be compassionate, love... and not only those who give you the same in return, but ultimately everyone?

Lawful stupid maybe. There's no reason why "Good" has to be blindingly trustful of others. Especially others that already display a lack of compassion, trust and love.

Dark83 wrote...
Regardless, given that my points seem to have been accepted by the community, it is impossible to argue that it is the pragmatic, logical (long term) decision to do the Dark Ritual.

Everything else is up to trusting Morrigan.

Her game-long deception and her desire to wipe out the entire tower not because they're potentially abominations or blood mages, but just because they don't share her views shows a fundemental level of violent intolerance and deceitfulness that would be extremely dangerous to the world at large if such is imparted to a child with god-like powers.

I like Morrigan, but I certainly wouldn't trust her with such power, given her attitude and conceits.

I agree.

The decision is pretty selfish, and there's really no way to argue around that. But as for it's merits as a good decision, we can't possibly know since the ramifications are never made clear. It could be possible that the decision to sleep with Morrigan and make little Morrigan babies (god... the horror...) is a good decision since they'll save the world, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, pet the elves... We just can't know. It's humourous reading people arguing it's moral value, but the discuss is pretty pointless.

[Layn]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Most hints in the game point towards the olds gods being evil. No clear evidence, but it's not like you have any evidence AT ALL that the Old God will do any good.
The Calling book clearly states the darkspawn heard the Old God's call and that's why they seek it out. Not to mention that anyone tained doesn't turn all crazy and evil immediately.

christianity said all pagan gods are evil. does that mean they really are evil? nope.
is it a general call "COME GET US OUT OF HERE! ANYONE THERE?" or "HEY DARKSPAWN! GET US OUT AND WE'LL GO KILL EVERY LIVING THING!"? and we don't know how long it takes for an old god to get tainted enough to go crazy and evil. it doesn't say anywhere (I think) that it's an immediate transformation

RunCDFirst wrote...

The
decision is pretty selfish, and there's really no way to argue around
that.

as we have been saying before, many did it for non-selfish reasons. now if it was prudent and the right thing to do, thats arguable and we can only know when bioware releases a continuation. some choose to trust (naive? maybe), some choose to be suspicious and cautious. it doesn't make one or the others stupid

Modifié par Crrash, 07 décembre 2009 - 09:40 .

[RunCDFirst]

Crrash wrote...
christianity said all pagan gods are evil. does that mean they really are evil? nope.

I don't know, have you met any of them? Some of those old gods do seem pretty dickish.

[Layn]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Crrash wrote...
christianity said all pagan gods are evil. does that mean they really are evil? nope.

I don't know, have you met any of them? Some of those old gods do seem pretty dickish.

have you met any untainted old god?

[RunCDFirst]

Crrash wrote...
as we have been saying before, many did it for non-selfish reasons. now if it was prudent and the right thing to do, thats arguable and we can only know when bioware releases a continuation. some choose to trust (naive? maybe), some choose to be suspicious and cautious. it doesn't make one or the others stupid

Those aren't reasons, those are justifications. 

[Volourn]

"Most hints in the game point towards the olds gods being evil. No clear evidence, but it's not like you have any evidence AT ALL that the Old God will do any good."



Where did you get your info from? The Chantry? LMAO Nothing that i've seen shows 100% that the Old Gods were evil or even actual gods. Afterall, the current Archdemon is the Goddess of Love.. I can't see how the Goddess of Love needs to be evil.



The archdemon versions are evil; but they are tainted with the darkspawn and pretty much everything tainted by them is corrupt in some ways - even Grey Wardens.







"Either way, Morrigan is unfit to be a mother and you can't really belive she would tech the Old God to be good. Morrigan is in the "might makes right" camp. Even if it is for "the greater good" (which is highly questionable in this case), giving a child to Morrigan is still a stupid and despicable thing to do, especailly knowing Morrigan."



I think anyone who deems themselves the ultimate arbititer of who would make a 'good' mother is unfit to make any such decision espicially ebfore the person in question has had their chance.



You come across just as bad as the Chantry condeming someone before they commit any crime. Morrigan's only crime is now bowing down to those who feel they have the right to murder her in cold blood.

[Layn]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Crrash wrote...
as we have been saying before, many did it for non-selfish reasons. now if it was prudent and the right thing to do, thats arguable and we can only know when bioware releases a continuation. some choose to trust (naive? maybe), some choose to be suspicious and cautious. it doesn't make one or the others stupid

Those aren't reasons, those are justifications. 

huh? seriously, why is it so hard to accept that some of us in a playthrough we had our grey warden choose the ritual for unselfish reasons? even if it might be naive, it's still thinking of others first.
and then theres other wardens who did it for selfish reasons, but really no one can expect them to follow Warden code, if they don't know it and weren't taught to live by it.
and then theres the ones who think that the previous two are stupid and evil and sacrifice themselves .
all those reasonings are possible.

You come across just as bad as the Chantry condeming someone before
they commit any crime. Morrigan's only crime is now bowing down to
those who feel they have the right to murder her in cold blood.

well lets not put it in such a good light. morrigan harms those who would harm her and she really has no qualms in killing them

Modifié par Crrash, 07 décembre 2009 - 09:58 .

[Gold Dragon]

Other than the one that will get Loghain to sacrifice himself, my male characters will typically Take Morrigan up on her offer.

For a purely selfish reason.

Simply put: To get between her legs, give her a child, and kick her to the curb. Exactly what she asks for. Why is that wrong? She DOES ask for it....

Modifié par A Golden Dragon, 07 décembre 2009 - 10:09 .

[Volourn]

"For a purely selfish reason.



Simply put: To get between her legs, give her a child, and kick her to the curb. Exactly what she asks for. Why is that wrong? She DOES ask for it...."



You must really hate males if you think all of them think like that? Espicially in a video game.

[katjajett]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

Other than the one that will get Loghain to sacrifice himself, my male characters will typically Take Morrigan up on her offer.

For a purely selfish reason.

Simply put: To get between her legs, give her a child, and kick her to the curb. Exactly what she asks for. Why is that wrong? She DOES ask for it....

I'm really not sure how to respond to that...

I had my male character take a leap of faith and grant her the ritual then leave to find her in the epilogue. If you pursued the romance with Morrigan and read the epilogue then you find out that she often thinks of your main character and is sad she's not with him. That right there tells me that the "dark ritual" was ok and, if not the right thing, wont likely backfire.

[Dark83]

tausra wrote...

The Entire tower would wipe out every mage or shaman or spiritual leader that wasn't willing to wear their leash and roll over on command. I could completely understand why the mages would be upset about being forced into a secured, walled and guarded camp, where all their numbers are concentrated, but so very few mages are.

I'm not sure I know what you're talking about, yet I'm 100% certain your implications are wrong.

The Tower is the prison. The Chantry (Templars) are the prison keepers who put them there and kill them if they become dangerous. The mages are the victims/prisoners. Morrigan wants them all dead because they were willing to be prisoners/controlled.

You're implying the mages control the mages, therefore the mages must die. Have you paid any attention at all to the mage/templar situation at all?