1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark83]

katjajett wrote...

I had my male character take a leap of faith and grant her the ritual then leave to find her in the epilogue. If you pursued the romance with Morrigan and read the epilogue then you find out that she often thinks of your main character and is sad she's not with him. That right there tells me that the "dark ritual" was ok and, if not the right thing, wont likely backfire.

How the heck do you know that? It just means she misses you, not that it was successful - nor the consequences of the kid being raised by Morrigan (presumably in the manner of Flemeth, if you discussed mothership with Morrigan).

[Layn]

Dark83 wrote...

katjajett wrote...

I had my male character take a leap of faith and grant her the ritual then leave to find her in the epilogue. If you pursued the romance with Morrigan and read the epilogue then you find out that she often thinks of your main character and is sad she's not with him. That right there tells me that the "dark ritual" was ok and, if not the right thing, wont likely backfire.

How the heck do you know that? It just means she misses you, not that it was successful - nor the consequences of the kid being raised by Morrigan (presumably in the manner of Flemeth, if you discussed mothership with Morrigan).

it means she isn't devoid of feeling for other people.
also, sure flemeth might not be the best mother, but Morrigan did grow up fine (though a bit ruthless)

[Gold Dragon]

Volourn wrote...

You must really hate males if you think all of them think like that? Espicially in a video game.

Hmmm....


Maybe I should tell you that I am male IRL, and actually don't care for Morrigan?  That help?

[Volourn]

"Maybe I should tell you that I am male IRL, and actually don't care for Morrigan? That help?"



Male or not, you seems to have a very low opinion of how the male mind works. Not all males are pigs who only think of having sex with any woman who happens to be attractive.

[Alex Savchovsky]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
Is it not this what Good is actually about? To trust, care, be compassionate, love... and not only those who give you the same in return, but ultimately everyone?

Lawful stupid maybe. There's no reason why "Good" has to be blindingly trustful of others. Especially others that already display a lack of compassion, trust and love.

Lawful or Chaotic is totally irrelevant in this case. Like it or not, these are some of the ideals that Good stands for. 
Anyways, you're right that blindly trusting someone is stupid. But that is not the case. Your character spends some time with Morrigan and gets to know her, to a degree. The choice whether to trust her or not is hardly "blind". 

[mesmerizedish]

Is it really a selfish decision? Before whom are you placing yourself? Sure, you're cheating death, but so what? It's not like death is going to whine and cry and complain to grandma Wynne about how you've been treating it.



My warden convinced Alistair to do the ritual for a number of reasons. Alisdair needed to survive to produce a blood heir, and to stand as Anora's figurehead. No way is he going to die.



As for the Warden, well, she's in love. Which, as Wynne tells us, is all about selfishness.* But she's not really sacrificing anyone or anything else. Morrigan gets to do with her own child what she pleases. Mmhmm. Yep, I've DEFINITELY taken advantage of someone.



*I don't really get that, as she told me it's selfish because it's complete devotion to someone else. That doesn't really fit my idea of selfishness, but whatevs.

[Dark83]

Crrash wrote...

also, sure flemeth might not be the best mother, but Morrigan did grow up fine (though a bit ruthless)

She grew up in such a manner that long term deception of the one she loved (assuming you romanced her) was fine. She grew up in such a way that she wanted to slaughter the mages not because they may be a threat, but because they did not share her views and subjected themselves to the Chantry. She objects if you don't kill them all.

That's not "ruthless" or a simple lack of compassion, that's utter contempt and lack of respect for life. Imagine if this kid really becomes as powerful as an Old God, raised so that those that follow the wrong god (ie. the Maker) aren't merely mistaken and need to be corrected, but mistaken and so need to be slaughtered for believing the wrong thing.

THIS is the sort of mothering Flemeth did.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Dark83 wrote...

She grew up in such a manner that long term deception of the one she loved (assuming you romanced her) was fine. She grew up in such a way that she wanted to slaughter the mages not because they may be a threat, but because they did not share her views and subjected themselves to the Chantry. She objects if you don't kill them all.

Not this again. She did not want to kill the mages, she was willing to let them all die. It's not the same. Oh, yes, and she also can be convinced they are worth saving.
Also, I'm not quite certain about what is the long term deception that you're talking about?

[Layn]

Dark83 wrote...
She grew up in such a manner that long term deception of the one she loved (assuming you romanced her) was fine. She grew up in such a way that she wanted to slaughter the mages not because they may be a threat, but because they did not share her views and subjected themselves to the Chantry. She objects if you don't kill them all.

That's not "ruthless" or a simple lack of compassion, that's utter contempt and lack of respect for life. Imagine if this kid really becomes as powerful as an Old God, raised so that those that follow the wrong god (ie. the Maker) aren't merely mistaken and need to be corrected, but mistaken and so need to be slaughtered for believing the wrong thing.

THIS is the sort of mothering Flemeth did.

she didn't love your character in the beginning nor did she ever go beyond friendship with many characters (mine for example). I don't blame her for not wanting to admit to people she starts caring about (something she never did and doesn't know how to handle) that her plan was to use the warden, she fears a bad reaction. not only that but with characters she already had relationships with she had no need to tell them about the ritual, and yet she does.
i don't remember exactly what happened at the mage tower, but i don't she wanted to purge the tower because they believed differently. Heck, she was agreeing with a templar! purge the probably unsavable tower, enlist the templars help and off to get more help. Or do you think the templars have exactly the same lack of respect for life? it seemed to everyone but the warden and a few of his/her team that the situation was hopeless. no sense in getting trapped in a tower that is going to be purged by templars. and anyway, after that Morrigan saw that it was possible and worth it.

by travelling with morrigan you showed her what it is to be a friend and how you deal with things and how it gets good results. She didn't seem (to me) to have the same attitude as in the beginning, even if she won't admit it oeasily and i'm sure that her views  and values have been shakken up and turning for the better.
While she will probably raise the child in a similar way to flemeth, she will teach it different values, those that she learned in her time with the wardens.

Modifié par Crrash, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:24 .

[Emryc]

Selfish? Definately. But if you've been (kidnapped to be) raped/seen your parents murdered/framed/whatever other origin story, possibly conscripted against your will to fight a threat you might not really care about, had to do everyone's chores for them to "help" you and been told that you're going to die just because you drank some blood...



...it's a pretty entertaining idea to load up that conniving skank, survive the entire ordeal and then just get away from the mess that is Ferelden.



Selfish or not, it is quite an entertaining option.

[Dark83]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Not this again. She did not want to kill the mages, she was willing to let them all die. It's not the same. Oh, yes, and she also can be convinced they are worth saving.
Also, I'm not quite certain about what is the long term deception that you're talking about?

I recall in the conversation with Wynne, you either agree to help (and with 70 Cunning and 4 ranks Coersion, she still gets negative influence for you disagreeing with Morrigan) or have to purge the tower, which she feels they deserve for subjecting themselves to the Chantry. You have two choices, since you're locked in the tower. Help the mages, or kill the mages. She supports killing them.

When you have literally two choices (which you have to choose or you're locked in the tower), rejecting one choice is de facto choosing the other.

Deception as in their plans in using you for babymaking.

[Wompoo]

Selfish it isn't for gods sake... a quick roll in the cot saves my life good. Will there be a problem down the track for Ferelden? I hope so... freaking zealots of the chantry and nobles deserve it. Hopefully Sten's race does a cleansing on the lot of them. As like the world today, let the future generations clean up the mess of the present. I would of slept with a hundred virgins if it had of removed the taint from me (and if it didn't, it would of been more satisfying then saving Ferelden's humans)

Modifié par Wompoo, 08 décembre 2009 - 05:26 .

[J_chambers]

Selfish....it sure is, and I hope it backfires, meaning more adventures.

[screwoffreg]

I think the Dark Ritual is pretty dangerous for Morrigan and the child more than the Warden.  Think about who might have an interest in her child:

Darkspawn: There are now roving darkspawn on the surface, some very powerful.  They are also drawn to Old Gods that they can corrupt which trigger blights.  Who is to say that one of these bands will not "sense" Morrigan's child and seek to give themselves a new, more dangerous leader?

Demons: The child of a mage who has the soul of a dragon?  Every demon in the Fade would see this as prime opportunity.

Human nations: The Tevinter worshipped Old Gods and other nations might see the advantage of capturing/manipulating a human divine for their own ends.  Worse, how about the Chantry/Templars?  I don't know how they'd feel about living competition for their religion.  Morrigan and her mother might have been able to kill a few wayward templars, but how will she do alone if a mini-Exalted March comes her way?

Flemeth: Her body is dead, but unlikely she is gone forever.  Who is to say she wouldn't lead the charge in the Fade, or wherever she is, to take this child's body as her own.

It seems destined that either way, whether or not you think Morrigan or the PC's action were selfish, you are going to have to get to the child and it's mother first.  Any other solution and it looks like Morrigan is a dead woman walking, she just doesn't know it yet.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 08 décembre 2009 - 05:45 .

[XOGHunter246]

i don't know how people can justify saving yourself as not selfish act by producing a god child which you can not be a part of and not knowing morrigans motives properly. I would rather die knowing that a child isn't in the hands of her.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Dark83 wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Not this again. She did not want to kill the mages, she was willing to let them all die. It's not the same. Oh, yes, and she also can be convinced they are worth saving.
Also, I'm not quite certain about what is the long term deception that you're talking about?

I recall in the conversation with Wynne, you either agree to help (and with 70 Cunning and 4 ranks Coersion, she still gets negative influence for you disagreeing with Morrigan) or have to purge the tower, which she feels they deserve for subjecting themselves to the Chantry. You have two choices, since you're locked in the tower. Help the mages, or kill the mages. She supports killing them.

When you have literally two choices (which you have to choose or you're locked in the tower), rejecting one choice is de facto choosing the other.

Deception as in their plans in using you for babymaking.

Eh? Twice I have saved the Circle and twice I did NOT get negative rating from Morrigan for doing so. Seems like you just failed to convince her.
As for the baby-making, please note that she's not in love with your character at the time you are selected for the mission. So it's quite a stretch to blame her for "being OK to deceive her only love". Matter of fact, she *could* have said nothing about it and used the "oh, it's cold in this castle and you know... it might be even colder in the grave tomorrow" scheme. 

[bobsmyuncle]

Not only is it selfish, but it's a gross dereliction of duty. Killing the Archdemon was the "duty that cannot be forsworn" that you signed up for (or got conscripted to, depending) and you intentionally walked away from it. Maybe you or your PC don't care, but it's still the case.



I chose to do it anyway, and justified my choice to myself, but I'm not going to lie about the nature of what I did.

[Layn]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Not only is it selfish, but it's a gross dereliction of duty. Killing the Archdemon was the "duty that cannot be forsworn" that you signed up for (or got conscripted to, depending) and you intentionally walked away from it. Maybe you or your PC don't care, but it's still the case.

you were supposed to kill an archdemon, not die doing it. they didn't put everything in the contract

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

XOGHunter246 wrote...

i don't know how people can justify saving yourself as not selfish act by producing a god child which you can not be a part of and not knowing morrigans motives properly. I would rather die knowing that a child isn't in the hands of her.

Probably because that is your opinion and your entitled to it, to some others though, your refusal of it due to your opinions could be decreed as selfish. No offence intended to you or any of the others whom have stated it is purely selfish, but I find it odd how you some of you can't see how some don't see it as being selfish or worse I guess in your opinion as being selfless. To some extent it is neither, it is just a matter of choice.

Reasons why someone would go ahead with the ritual that aren't selfish.

For the future blights if Morrigan/Flemeth were to re-appear it would prolong a Wardens life just a bit more if this ritual was proven to work.

You could be sparing the heartache of a loved one if you live to fight another day.

If your male, you would also be sparing the lives of the other two wardens to fight another day.

Also of course this is all going on the principal that you'll survive long enough so that you can be able to kill the Archdemon in the first place. Being a Warden doesn't grant you an audience with it, ok might make you more of a target if a few of you were clumped together but still... for the ritual to work in theory you all have to get to and defeat the archdemon.

Other than the unethical/unholy/no involvement in the childs life reasonings, I can't actually see why some people see it as selfish, other than it is simply because they hate Morrigan, which is itself a selfish act. Something Morrigan even comments on in the dialogue if you go down one of the refusal routes.

One other thing to point out to your statement, perhaps it is because they are roleplaying their character. Remember just because they say they took the ritual, doesn't mean to say they would themselves (although some would, given the circumstances).

Another thing to point out, in virtually all of the origins, you could state the majority do a selfish act at the start when Duncan brings them into the Wardens to save their lives (Dwarf commoner and Mage, stand out as the obvious ones if going on the basis of the latter not telling Irving), so taking the ritual wouldn't exactly be the first selfish act the player has done.

I actually tried my best I think to refuse the offer as Dwarf Commoner and if I remember rightly Duncan was of the opinion that if I really refused it he would just leave me to get executed and save him the hassle of doing it. So, are you telling me in that situation you'd let them execute you?

Now as far as I myself am concerned, I don't let my own thoughts on it matter, I go with what I think my character would do. Some of them have gone ahead with it or persuaded Alastair to go ahead with it if female PC, others have refused it and I apply this logic to all my characters.

[XOGHunter246]

everyone entitled to to their opinion your right guess we will agree to disagree. one thing though how is not doing it selfish your still doing what your meant to do not conceiving a child which could be a good/bad thing sure morrigan may seem trust worthy but she is very intelligent and can easily manipulate you like she has done to reach her own goals. i doubt she could careless about you dying anyway just whats that child!. why didn't she tell us in first place about this if she was doing it to save you, she wait till now to tell us?

[robertthebard]

Actually, I did it, and I did it for selfish reasons, I didn't want to die. However, just because I'm a Grey Warden doesn't mean I have to be a brain dead paladin, and smite evil until I die, at least, not until I'm overcome by the taint, and don't have much choice in the matter. Personally, I was in no hurry to die, figuring I have around 29 years or so of life left before the taint completely overcomes me. I might as well make the most of it. I also am rather selfishly enjoying the fact that not only did Loghain not get to die to try and restore his honor, but now gets to spend the rest of his life restoring the part of the order that he all but destroyed in Ferelden.



So, I would say yes, it is a selfish act, but so what?

[Ronnan]

robertthebard wrote...

Loghain not get to die to try and restore his honor, but now gets to spend the rest of his life restoring the part of the order that he all but destroyed in Ferelden.

So, I would say yes, it is a selfish act, but so what?

I like that punishment.

Not sure if anyone brought this up, but how many Grey Wardens are left in Ferelden?  Two.  If one of you dies, that leaves one.  Is one Warden truly enough protection for an entire country?

I mean, it may seem selfish to prevent one's death in this way, but in doing so, you can stop more deaths.

The Darkspawn don't just simply disappear when the Arch Demon dies.  Someone needs to get back to butt-kicking for goodness after all. 

Modifié par Ronnan, 08 décembre 2009 - 10:49 .

[Curlain]

Ronnan wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Loghain not get to die to try and restore his honor, but now gets to spend the rest of his life restoring the part of the order that he all but destroyed in Ferelden.

So, I would say yes, it is a selfish act, but so what?

I like that punishment.

Not sure if anyone brought this up, but how many Grey Wardens are left in Ferelden?  Two.  If one of you dies, that leaves one.  Is one Warden truly enough protection for an entire country?

I mean, it may seem selfish to prevent one's death in this way, but in doing so, you can stop more deaths.

The Darkspawn don't just simply disappear when the Arch Demon dies.  Someone needs to get back to butt-kicking for goodness after all. 

We should be able to just get Minsc to do it, the Archdemon's soul would disintegrate in the awesome presence of his righteous fury

As to the Grey Wardens, they would come in for Orlais very so after the battle, so there would still be more then enough around after you (or Alistair or Loghain) bit the dust.  No getting out of it that easily

[Ronnan]

I just wanted a reason to reference Minsc!



The happiest ending seems to be Loghain buying the farm, but that isn't so happy for female characters, unfortunately.

[robertthebard]

Ronnan wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Loghain not get to die to try and restore his honor, but now gets to spend the rest of his life restoring the part of the order that he all but destroyed in Ferelden.

So, I would say yes, it is a selfish act, but so what?

I like that punishment.

Not sure if anyone brought this up, but how many Grey Wardens are left in Ferelden?  Two.  If one of you dies, that leaves one.  Is one Warden truly enough protection for an entire country?

I mean, it may seem selfish to prevent one's death in this way, but in doing so, you can stop more deaths.

The Darkspawn don't just simply disappear when the Arch Demon dies.  Someone needs to get back to butt-kicking for goodness after all. 

There are other Grey Wardens, but w/out an Archdemon, they may as well be bands of bandits that a military can take care of.  While it's not like I developed warm fuzzy feelings for darkspawn, my intention was to make my life my own again after the blight, instead of just more of the same.  I have, afterall, had a goodly portion of it taken away by becoming a Grey Warden in the first place.  If Fereldan, and the rest of Thedas want to begrudge me a few years of happiness, then bleep them, I'm doing it anyway.  Which is also selfish.  It fits the way I played the char throughout the whole game anyway, so yeah...  In subsequent play throughs, I will leave the ritual alone, until such time as I unlock the other three achievements I have left.  After that, it's going to depend on how the char plays out what I do.