1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark83]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Eh? Twice I have saved the Circle and twice I did NOT get negative rating from Morrigan for doing so. Seems like you just failed to convince her.

No, it's literally impossible for me to fail persuasion checks, given my utterly broken character. You merely selected a different conversation tree - it's possible. In one of Morrigan's initial dialogs, it's entirely possible to gain positive influence without agreeing to a single thing she says about love.

]Alex Savchovsky wrote...

As for the baby-making, please note that she's not in love with your character at the time you are selected for the mission. So it's quite a stretch to blame her for "being OK to deceive her only love". Matter of fact, she *could* have said nothing about it and used the "oh, it's cold in this castle and you know... it might be even colder in the grave tomorrow" scheme. 

I did not say she's deceiving her love. I'm saying she's deceived you for the whole game - period. Much like Alistair. Except "I'm a royal bastard" is a different sort of secret from "I've been using you from the moment I joined you".

[Layn]

Dark83 wrote...

I did not say she's deceiving her love. I'm saying she's deceived you for the whole game - period. Much like Alistair. Except "I'm a royal bastard" is a different sort of secret from "I've been using you from the moment I joined you".

come on, she expects you to abandon her as soon as you find out that she initially only wanted to use you to create an old god child. Heck in the dialog options at the end she is surprised and moved if you insist that you are still friends, at the final battle in denerim.

[Ronnan]

Well I just completed it involving Morrigan's ritual....There wasn't anything that would suggest something bad comes of it.

So you bypass death to continue adventuring, big deal.  

Next playthrough, I'll ditch Alistair for Loghain, and let him kill the demon. Maybe that'll still be a fairly happy ending with the PC and Alistair living.

I've seen the ending where the PC dies and where Alistair dies so far.  Both are depressing.  

Modifié par Ronnan, 09 décembre 2009 - 03:14 .

[Melkor-Son of None]

I refused her. Even though it is a game, I could not bring myself to do that. It was the wrong thing. What would Duncan have done?

That final shout at the end before you kill the Archedemon is epic. Loved that bit.

I think this sums is up...

In Death, Sacrifice





Edit: To Ronnan above me: I also can't bring myself to let Loghain make the sacrifice. I do not want to make him a hero, and that death is honorful, something he does not deserve.

2nd Edit: To everyone saying: "Oh, I trust Morrigan to do the right thing. She wont try to use the child to make herself more powerful."

Flemeth raised Morrigan and taught her that the most important thing in life is....Power. That's all that Morrigan cares about. She does not care about you, the child, her mother, or the people of Fereldan. If she did really care about you, then why does she leave you before the most important fight of your life?

It is quite easy to me. I thought I could change her, but once I got to that scene, I realized she had been playing me from the beggining, as she admits: "Why do you think my mother saved you?...This is the reason I joined you on your adventures." Blah Blah Blah.

Modifié par Melkor-Son of None, 09 décembre 2009 - 04:28 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Melkor-Son of None wrote...

2nd Edit: To everyone saying: "Oh, I trust Morrigan to do the right thing. She wont try to use the child to make herself more powerful."

Flemeth raised Morrigan and taught her that the most important thing in life is....Power. That's all that Morrigan cares about. She does not care about you, the child, her mother, or the people of Fereldan. If she did really care about you, then why does she leave you before the most important fight of your life?

It is quite easy to me. I thought I could change her, but once I got to that scene, I realized she had been playing me from the beggining, as she admits: "Why do you think my mother saved you?...This is the reason I joined you on your adventures." Blah Blah Blah.

You are mistaken.  Morrigan was raised to believe in survival above all else, not power.  Flemeth certainly doesn't value power herself, so I don't even see where you get that idea.

[Spartansfan8888]

The only "good" that comes from the ritual imo was already mentioned... now ANY person can kill the archdemon without it coming back through a random darkspawn. This means that if the only 3 people that can kill the most powerful foe in the world happen to die wading through hordes of darkspawn to get to it, there is still a chance of victory. I think if the pc had more control of morrigan it wouldve been smart in the long term but they have no idea what the child will become or what morrigan will do with it.

[tranj84cl]

For the Grey Wardens, the end justifies the means. If the Blight is over, it doesn't matter what you needed to do to reach that end. Look at what happened in Warden's Keep. Riorden suggesting you turn Loghain into a Grey Warden. All of Duncan's actions. It's all for fighting the Blight.



Living in the end, being Queen, is just gravy.

[Ski Mask Wei]

Incredibly selfish and ridiculously dangerous. The Old God Baby could be worse than 100 Blights and Maker knows what lunatics like Morrigan and Flemeth could do with that. I was a cold-hearted mercenary bastard mage on my first play through and I still couldn't go through with it. There was no way I gonna give Morrigan carte blanche with my seed or Alister's.



Unfortunately the ending stated I might have knocked her up in one of our previous boot knockings. But at least it was a normal baby!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Crrash wrote...
have you met any untainted old god?

I wouldn't want to. They seem to be like dragons - and dragons have the tendancy to eat people and burn villages.
That doesn't spur my confidence.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Volourn wrote...
Where did you get your info from? The Chantry? LMAO Nothing that i've seen shows 100% that the Old Gods were evil or even actual gods. Afterall, the current Archdemon is the Goddess of Love.. I can't see how the Goddess of Love needs to be evil.

Godess of beauty actually. But the name deosn't mean anything.

Remeber hte small village called haven? Tehy worshipped hte dragon called Andraste. Waht does that dragon have to do with Andraste? Nothing.
So why would a Old God (who looks like anohter dragon) be any different?

The archdemon versions are evil; but they are tainted with the darkspawn and pretty much everything tainted by them is corrupt in some ways - even Grey Wardens.

Maybe. But I don' see uncorrupted dragons as a great force of good.
Regardless, that's really a big risk to take with nothing to sugest the outcome will be favorable at all.

I think anyone who deems themselves the ultimate arbititer of who would make a 'good' mother is unfit to make any such decision espicially ebfore the person in question has had their chance.

You come across just as bad as the Chantry condeming someone before they commit any crime. Morrigan's only crime is now bowing down to those who feel they have the right to murder her in cold blood.

Bah. Morrigan doesn' show even a hint of compassion and has no calms about murdering children. She's a broken and socially unadjusted person that doesn't have an alturistic bone in her body.
Yes, trusting a person like that to raise you child, especially a god child, is the hight of insanity.

You don't have to be a genius to notice that.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 09 décembre 2009 - 08:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
Lawful or Chaotic is totally irrelevant in this case. Like it or not, these are some of the ideals that Good stands for. 
Anyways, you're right that blindly trusting someone is stupid. But that is not the case. Your character spends some time with Morrigan and gets to know her, to a degree. The choice whether to trust her or not is hardly "blind". 

Blind trust is when you have no confirmation, no hint at all that something will works excepot someones word.

So yea, it still is blind trust.

by travelling with morrigan you showed her what it is to be a friend and how you deal with things and how it gets good results. She didn't seem (to me) to have the same attitude as in the beginning, even if she won't admit it oeasily and i'm sure that her views  and values have been shakken up and turning for the better.
While she will probably raise the child in a similar way to flemeth, she will teach it different values, those that she learned in her time with the wardens.

Oh, God..you're one of THOSE.. The power of Love redeems everyone camp. I've run into peopel that wrote fanfic of even the biggest, LITERALY soulless monsters being redeemed by the power of love.
If only it was taht easy.
So Morrigan took a fancy to your character (if that was even real and not an act) and sudenly that will turn her into a good and caring person and a great mother? Yeah right...

Not this again. She did not want to kill the mages, she was willing to let them all die. It's not the same. Oh, yes, and she also can be convinced they are worth saving.

She quite literaly considers them weak and stupid and worthy of only death. Evne the kids. And you cna't really convince her otherwise, you can only shut her up. Try to persuade her otherwise and she still dissaproves.

[Lotion Soronarr]

screwoffreg wrote...
I think the Dark Ritual is pretty dangerous for Morrigan and the child more than the Warden.  Think about who might have an interest in her child:

It seems destined that either way, whether or not you think Morrigan or the PC's action were selfish, you are going to have to get to the child and it's mother first.  Any other solution and it looks like Morrigan is a dead woman walking, she just doesn't know it yet.

Well, I don' really see anyone knowing about it. The darkspawn might sense it (but let's not forget Flemeth had some means of keeping them away/confusing them).
Would the Fade demons know? I don't know.
Tevinter Imperium? Who's gonan tell them?

[Emryc]

The problem in this discussion is that most people look at it from a loyal Grey Warden's point of view. However, if you're a character who's as manipulative and backstabbing as Morrigan, you might not care so much about her god baby yet.



You can always cross and burn that bridge when you get there. Dying for the ungrateful hellhole that's Ferelden however, that's something I'd pass for.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Dark83 wrote...
I did not say she's deceiving her love. I'm saying she's deceived you for the whole game - period.

The line I quoted says:
"She grew up in such a manner that long term deception of the one she loved (assuming you romanced her) was fine."

It's simply not the case. She planned to use the PC, sure. She didn't tell him that straight, sure (would you?). But she didn't love him either. So in fact she simply hid part of the truth from a complete stranger. I fail to see the problem with that. Unless your problem is that *you* happen to be the complete stranger and you are universally trustworthy so you're deeply hurt when someone doesn't recognize that instantly. Quit thinking as a gamer for a moment and think in-character.

[Volourn]

"What would Duncan have done?"



Are you trying to pretend that Duncan is some high authority when it comes to morality? Kiddin' right? Duncan, and the Grey Wardens are not good guys. In fact, in many ways, they're not that much better than the Blight outside of the fact they are intelligent and communicative. He can commit so many heinous acts and he's only in the game for a short time.





"Remeber hte small village called haven? Tehy worshipped hte dragon called Andraste. Waht does that dragon have to do with Andraste? Nothing.

So why would a Old God (who looks like anohter dragon) be any different?"



Dragons are not old gods. Old gods are not dragons.





"Maybe. But I don' see uncorrupted dragons as a great force of good.

Regardless, that's really a big risk to take with nothing to sugest the outcome will be favorable at all."



Old gods aren't dragons. When tainted by the darkspawn blight they get corrupted into the SHAPE of a dragon. Much like dwarves, elves, human, and quanari get corrupted into the various kind sof darkspawn. We have know idea what an actual old god is. For all we know they can be just powerful human mages or actual gods. Or, they could be drgaons. We don't know.



Dragons are just animals who like to eat things. The dragon in Haven is not an old god.





"Bah. Morrigan doesn' show even a hint of compassion and has no calms about murdering children. She's a broken and socially unadjusted person that doesn't have an alturistic bone in her body.

Yes, trusting a person like that to raise you child, especially a god child, is the hight of insanity."



Simply not true.

[Lughsan35]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...
I think the Dark Ritual is pretty dangerous for Morrigan and the child more than the Warden.  Think about who might have an interest in her child:

It seems destined that either way, whether or not you think Morrigan or the PC's action were selfish, you are going to have to get to the child and it's mother first.  Any other solution and it looks like Morrigan is a dead woman walking, she just doesn't know it yet.

Well, I don' really see anyone knowing about it. The darkspawn might sense it (but let's not forget Flemeth had some means of keeping them away/confusing them).
Would the Fade demons know? I don't know.
Tevinter Imperium? Who's gonan tell them?

Flemeth kept them away the way shale would *SQUISH*

She's also old enough to be barren.  So she likely isn't even something that interests the darkspawn at all. Dangerous and not capable of being a broodmom... DO NOT WANT.

[Lughsan35]

Volourn wrote...


"Bah. Morrigan doesn' show even a hint of compassion and has no calms about murdering children. She's a broken and socially unadjusted person that doesn't have an alturistic bone in her body.
Yes, trusting a person like that to raise you child, especially a god child, is the hight of insanity."

Simply not true.

Indeed she's incredibly pragmatic.  And shows considerable enlightened self interest.  She just wants to get this whole dealing with Blight stuff over with as soon as possible so she can get back to running with the animals and being alone..

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
You are mistaken.  Morrigan was raised to believe in survival above all else, not power.  Flemeth certainly doesn't value power herself, so I don't even see where you get that idea.

LOl...and how can you survive without power?
Morrigan is after power, that is made pretty clear. Look how she lusts after the Grimoires.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Not this again. She did not want to kill the mages, she was willing to let them all die. It's not the same. Oh, yes, and she also can be convinced they are worth saving.

She quite literaly considers them weak and stupid and worthy of only death. Evne the kids. And you cna't really convince her otherwise, you can only shut her up. Try to persuade her otherwise and she still dissaproves.

It seems you missed a lot of her personality.
You expect her to have a special attitude towards human life much like you do. But it wouldn't make ANY sense for her, being grown up in the Wilds with hardly any social contacts. She believes in "survival of the fittest", not it human superiority. Quite literally she does not have any reason to care for someone who is obviously not the fittest.
This said, isn't it curious that the argument that makes her agree on you is "you could be one of them"?

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

What makes you think your conventional definition of "good" influence is appropriate for an Old God? She needs to teach the child how to control its power and survive as an apostate, not understand table manners or the subtle intrigue of politcal games between noble families.

Besides, Morrigan is *not* Flemeth. The writers went to great lengths to reveal that Morrigan is very much human, and not a monstrous parasite like her mother. Is Morrigan to be indicted for Flemeth's crimes? "Sins of the father" much?

The second you get philosophical about the nature of "good" and "evil" you loose. Don't even get into that. Nobody cares.

...and yet you bring morallty into this?  Morallity is loosely good/evil.  If you think something is immoral, it's a logical step to call it evil.  So, by your own words, as soon as you bring morallity into it, you lose, so, take your own advice, and don't get into it, nobody cares.  This from me, that views it as a selfish act.

Point is, that child is your baby, and Morrigan certanly isn't a motherly figure or a good influence. She is not trustworthy. Stop thinking with your d***.

Let me repeat that. YOUR CHILD. With Morrigan. With "Connor kid is a moron, kill it" Morrigan. With "All in the circle are morons, let the abominations/templars get them. Including the kiddies" Morrigan. Morigan doesn't hvae an alturistic bone in her body. Probably because of her upbriinging, but still.

How anyone can consider this good is beyond me. Child services would like to have a word with you.

So yeah. The ritual is a selfish, shortsighted and moronic decision. Delude yourself that it's something else if you want, but the evidence speeks agaisnt you on this one.

While we're discussing morality, why, in the name of any gods, should my female City Elf give a rat's ass what happens to Denerim?  Because I'm a Grey Warden?  News flash, I became a Grey Warden under duress, to avoid being executed for killing a right bastard that deserved to die.  So I traded an instant death sentence for a postponed one?  Why wouldn't she think that letting Loghain or Alistair get a little would be bad, since it means that she would for sure survive the encounter with the Archdemon.  Is it selfish, surely.  I have never tried to say otherwise, but I have also not tried to justify not doing it with logic, because logically, in the City Elf origin, or depending on how you played through the mage origin, it was better to risk becoming a Grey Warden than the alternative.  Not everyone that joins the ranks of the Wardens does so out of altruistic motives, just as with the Legion of the Dead, they may very well have had no good choice in the matter.  Especially since, when you become a Grey Warden, you don't know that you may ultimately have to sacrifice your own life to save people that you may indeed feel don't deserve to be saved.

I don't really get where you get shortsighted and and moronic from.  I suspect that these are personal views that you would force on us.  Are you, perchance, related directly to Vaughn?  Afterall, he felt that it was well within his rights as the son of the Arl to inflict his will upon the people of the Alienage, that, in case you never noticed, aren't allowed to possess weapons to fight back against his own special brand of tyranny.

So, while I agree with your assessment that it is selfish, I reject the rest of your tirade as emotional hogwash dressed up in the guise of logic.  Logic, at least would not contradict itself.  If something is immoral, it's evil, right?  if Good and Evil shouldn't be brought into this conversation, your own words, in this very quote, then moral/immoral have no right here either.  Morality is fluid, based on one's philosophical beliefs, and you can attempt to dismiss this fact out of hand if you wish, but the only one you're going to convince is yourself.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
You are mistaken.  Morrigan was raised to believe in survival above all else, not power.  Flemeth certainly doesn't value power herself, so I don't even see where you get that idea.

LOl...and how can you survive without power?
Morrigan is after power, that is made pretty clear. Look how she lusts after the Grimoires.

Flemeth survived for a long, long time without any power.  She doesn't even go anywhere near the stuff.

[robertthebard]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
You are mistaken.  Morrigan was raised to believe in survival above all else, not power.  Flemeth certainly doesn't value power herself, so I don't even see where you get that idea.

LOl...and how can you survive without power?
Morrigan is after power, that is made pretty clear. Look how she lusts after the Grimoires.

Flemeth survived for a long, long time without any power.  She doesn't even go anywhere near the stuff.

While this pains me more than I care to admit, Flemeth's survival is solely based on power.  If she weren't so powerful already, she'd have never survived as long as she seemingly has.  In one of the dialog trees with Morrigan in camp, you can get her to say that survival and power have meaning while love is fleeting.  Very roughly paraphrased there, but close.  These are her guiding stars, and while it may seem easy to condemn her for this, what is the PC's motivation?  If not survival, then why would specific origins accept conscription into the Grey Wardens?  Once in the Grey Wardens, why would the PC take on all the side quests, or any of the quests, if not to become more powerful.  So, while Morrigan may be obsessed with the idea, survival and power are motivations for every character in the game that are going to matter in the end.

Anora is very much the same as Morrigan.  She is willing to do whatever it takes to insure both her survival, and maintaining her power.  Yet, it seems that quite a few people that are adverse to the ritual were not adverse to leaving her on the throne, and why is that, I wonder?

[The Capital Gaultier]

robertthebard wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
You are mistaken.  Morrigan was raised to believe in survival above all else, not power.  Flemeth certainly doesn't value power herself, so I don't even see where you get that idea.

LOl...and how can you survive without power?
Morrigan is after power, that is made pretty clear. Look how she lusts after the Grimoires.

Flemeth survived for a long, long time without any power.  She doesn't even go anywhere near the stuff.

While this pains me more than I care to admit, Flemeth's survival is solely based on power.  If she weren't so powerful already, she'd have never survived as long as she seemingly has.  In one of the dialog trees with Morrigan in camp, you can get her to say that survival and power have meaning while love is fleeting.  Very roughly paraphrased there, but close.  These are her guiding stars, and while it may seem easy to condemn her for this, what is the PC's motivation?  If not survival, then why would specific origins accept conscription into the Grey Wardens?  Once in the Grey Wardens, why would the PC take on all the side quests, or any of the quests, if not to become more powerful.  So, while Morrigan may be obsessed with the idea, survival and power are motivations for every character in the game that are going to matter in the end.

Anora is very much the same as Morrigan.  She is willing to do whatever it takes to insure both her survival, and maintaining her power.  Yet, it seems that quite a few people that are adverse to the ritual were not adverse to leaving her on the throne, and why is that, I wonder?

Neither Morrigan nor Flemeth ever have any power in the story and neither pursues it beyond personal influence with the Grey Warden.  The fact that they are both powerful Mages doesn't put them in any sort of position.  Please don't confuse real power and magical power.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 09 décembre 2009 - 11:36 .

[robertthebard]

This off topic discussion is about power, not a specific kind of power. If Flemeth truly wanted to, do you think she couldn't take whatever she wanted in political power? Based solely on her own personal magical prowess? Just because you may disagree with a poster's views doesn't mean that you can try to mimic their behavior by splitting hairs. Flemeth and Morrigan are both motivated by power. Maybe Flemeth doesn't want to rule the world, or perhaps, all things considered, she does, but that doesn't mean that she is any less powerful. She may not be influential in politics, which is the power you're locked into looking at, it seems, but I believe she isn't solely because she knows that there may well be enough Templars to disrupt her eventually if she tried to push the issue. Power is power, no matter where it's roots may lie, and when it comes to powerful beings, Flemeth is right up there with all the other major NPC's in the game.

[The Capital Gaultier]

robertthebard wrote...

This off topic discussion is about power, not a specific kind of power. If Flemeth truly wanted to, do you think she couldn't take whatever she wanted in political power? Based solely on her own personal magical prowess? Just because you may disagree with a poster's views doesn't mean that you can try to mimic their behavior by splitting hairs. Flemeth and Morrigan are both motivated by power. Maybe Flemeth doesn't want to rule the world, or perhaps, all things considered, she does, but that doesn't mean that she is any less powerful. She may not be influential in politics, which is the power you're locked into looking at, it seems, but I believe she isn't solely because she knows that there may well be enough Templars to disrupt her eventually if she tried to push the issue. Power is power, no matter where it's roots may lie, and when it comes to powerful beings, Flemeth is right up there with all the other major NPC's in the game.

They never use the word power that I can recall.  They use the word survival.  The idea of power was brought up by other posters, and so I refuted it.  I'm not trying to use the word, as it has nothing to do with Morrigan nor Flemeth's goals.  It really is a terrible word to use, even if you do believe that they are power-hungry.

And no, I don't doubt that Flemeth could become quite powerful if she wanted to.  She does not, however, so I don't see the point in even bringing it up.

*I would also completely disagree with the statement that "power is power."  True power is influence over other people.  The methods used to gain it hardly matter.  Power of ability or skill or power over objects is completely different.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 09 décembre 2009 - 11:47 .