1807 ответов в этой теме

[Silensfurtim]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

Like I said before, Morrigan disappeared and not wanted to be found.  Maker knows what she'll do with the God baby.  Maybe she'll keep it for herself? Maybe she won't let others use it?

If the God baby is in the hands of the Chantry then that would have been different.

Yes, then we would have exhalted marches all over the place. To the land of the Qun!

that would be nice. another idea for DLCs

[Silensfurtim]

lockheartt wrote...

That's why IMO it's a selfish and coward choice the warden could make. A lot of people died, or sacrificed so much for destroying this thing and stoping it, would you really put yourself above that all just for glory, love or even fear of death?

Being a grey warden is not about duty, but about hope, about fighting for something greater then yourself. At least it was the way i saw it with my first character. And for that he had Wynne to thank...point for her.

yeah thats how i see it too.

i can only imagine what other Grey Wardens would think about you..

Сообщение изменено: Silensfurtim, 01 Декабрь 2009 - 12:50 .

[Shady314]

Silensfurtim wrote...
You didn't die because you were given an option.

Hilariously that's also how I became a Grey Warden. Again I fail to see your point regarding destiny.

You also side-stepped your responsibility as a Grey Warden. As a Grey Warden you are considered as a dead man walking. Other Grey Wardens would be asking you the question..

"Why the hell are you still alive?"

Again what is your point? You talked of destiny. I pointed out that can't be your destiny if it doesn't happen.

You talk of responsibility. I fulfilled my responsibility. The blight is ended. Isn't that what the Grey Wardens say they're all about? Stopping the blight at ANY cost. I found a cost I found more acceptable. I'll still die. Eventually.

Other Grey Wardens chose a different route so what? Because someone 400 years ago did something a certain way I have to do it exactly the same or that is "evil"? Fine I'm evil and alive. I hope your corpse enjoys your warm fuzzy feeling.

[Shady314]

Silensfurtim wrote...

lockheartt wrote...

That's why IMO it's a selfish and coward choice the warden could make. A lot of people died, or sacrificed so much for destroying this thing and stoping it, would you really put yourself above that all just for glory, love or even fear of death?

Being a grey warden is not about duty, but about hope, about fighting for something greater then yourself. At least it was the way i saw it with my first character. And for that he had Wynne to thank...point for her.

yeah thats how i see it too.

i can only imagine what other Grey Wardens would think about you..

Who cares? I'm not running for Prom Queen. It's not a popularity contest. If any Grey Warden has a problem with how I handled the blight they can take care of the next one.

[Herr Uhl]

I don't see anybody arguing that we should sacrifice dwarves to make golems, since that helped end the blight in the days of yore, because it is a selfless and good act. Thus, it is evil and selfish for the dwarves not to want to be sacrificed.



It is their destiny!



And yes, I'm a silly man. But that it is evil works on the premise that the old gods were evil. And most religions that want to convert the people of another creed paints out the old gods as evil.

[Erasculio]

Silensfurtim wrote...
Like I said before,
Morrigan disappeared and not wanted to be found.  Maker knows what
she'll do with the God baby.  Maybe she'll keep it for herself? Maybe
she won't let others use it?

Morrigan may not allow others to touch her toy, but she cannot allow it to break, too. Which is why the Old God and his mother have one of the best reasons to fight the darkspawn - they can completely nullify all the power the old god has by turning it mad again. So just like Flemmeth has allied with our characters (which was done just to keep herself alive, but she did ally with us anyway), Morrigan and her baby would also fight against the darkspawn (if only to be alive anyway).

I think Morrigan's plan is just what Flemmeth would have wanted with the Old God - to possess it and thus be truly immortal in the body of a god.

lockheartt wrote...
I would have accepted Morrigan's offer if I had any confirmation that the old god would be freed of the taint, but he wouldn't. The child would bear the darkspawn taint as well, thats why the archdemon's essence would be able to go to him in first place, as he is able to go to the warden that kills it. Is the taint that make that possible, not the dark ritual.

At the same time, the Grey Wardens have the taint, and they are not darkspawn. In fact, the ritual required a Warden that had not been tainted for a long time so this wouldn't be a problem at all. It's only reasonable that the child will either be purged by the taint as part of Morrigan's plan, or that the taint left is the same our characters have, not enough to twist someone into becoming a ghoul or worse.; otherwise, the child would not be useful to Morrigan at all.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Silensfurtim wrote...
Like I said before, Morrigan disappeared and not wanted to be found.  Maker knows what she'll do with the God baby.  Maybe she'll keep it for herself? Maybe she won't let others use it? 

If the God baby is in the hands of the Chantry then that would have been different.

Trust Morrigan or trust a bunch of religious fanatics, devoted to another god? Hmmm... I choose Morrigan.

[Kohaku]

Shady314 wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

lockheartt wrote...

That's why IMO it's a selfish and coward choice the warden could make. A lot of people died, or sacrificed so much for destroying this thing and stoping it, would you really put yourself above that all just for glory, love or even fear of death?

Being a grey warden is not about duty, but about hope, about fighting for something greater then yourself. At least it was the way i saw it with my first character. And for that he had Wynne to thank...point for her.

yeah thats how i see it too.

i can only imagine what other Grey Wardens would think about you..

Who cares? I'm not running for Prom Queen. It's not a popularity contest. If any Grey Warden has a problem with how I handled the blight they can take care of the next one.

I totally agree with you. I don't role-play characters so that line of thinking is lost on me. However, I personally didn't care what they thought. We were the ones fighting it, not them. They were wherever the hell they deemed it necessary. Any questions about what happen shouldn’t even occur since they weren’t there and didn’t know of the options presented to us.

Сообщение изменено: Kerridan Kaiba, 01 Декабрь 2009 - 02:21 .

[Skellimancer]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...
Like I said before, Morrigan disappeared and not wanted to be found.  Maker knows what she'll do with the God baby.  Maybe she'll keep it for herself? Maybe she won't let others use it? 

If the God baby is in the hands of the Chantry then that would have been different.

Trust Morrigan or trust a bunch of religious fanatics, devoted to another god? Hmmm... I choose Morrigan.

Morrigan probably wants to possess the child and start being just like Flemeth.

I didn't give her the chance.

[ChickenDownUnder]

Whether the Dark Ritual is selfish or not depends on what kind of Warden you are roleplaying. If your character was one that willingly became a Warden and wanted to defeat the dark spawn for greater glory, then at the last minute deciding you'd rather not live up to the basic ideal of a Gray Warden after all is indeed selfish, if also cowardly.

If you played a character that was forced against his/her will to be a Warden, is bitter about other characters trying to force the honorable Gray Warden ideal down his throat, that Dark Ritual would appear more like a thin ray of hope. With the truly selfish act being not only not being told of the fine points of what it means to be a Warden, but forcing that role onto someone clearly unwilling.

Сообщение изменено: ChickenDownUnder, 01 Декабрь 2009 - 01:24 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

@Skellimancer:
This is possible of course. However, I have some doubts on the whole "let's possess a now god" idea. Seems risky. Still, if she tries and succeeds, she probably won't need to act as Flemeth anymore, as she will probably become immortal herself. And it's probably not that bad to have a god with a +100 (Love) relation to you.

@ChickenDownUnder:
There is another option - your character is an idealist who believes that having an untainted and awake old god would be better for the world.

Сообщение изменено: Alex Savchovsky, 01 Декабрь 2009 - 01:26 .

[Sidney]

I got conscripted into the Wardens, not my call. I'm a smart enough guy to see that having Darkspawn running all over my lawn is bad and given the overall level of incompetence in Ferelden I'm the only one who can solve that problem.



Nowhere did I sign up for being dead and stuff and so if I've got a way out of this $%^&* outfit I'm taking it. Heck, I was waiting for the option to kill Alistair in my stead so Morrigan's idea seemed like a real benevolent moment.

[syllogi]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Whether the Dark Ritual is selfish or not depends on what kind of Warden you are roleplaying. If your character was one that willingly became a Warden and wanted to defeat the dark spawn for greater glory, then at the last minute deciding you'd rather not live up to the basic ideal of a Gray Warden after all is indeed selfish, if also cowardly.

If you played a character that was forced against his/her will to be a Warden, is bitter about other characters trying to force the honorable Gray Warden ideal down his throat, that Dark Ritual would appear more like a thin ray of hope.

This is very true.  On my first playthrough, as a human noble, I was like "Really, Duncan?  You're blackmailing me over my dying dad's body while enemies are busting down the door?  Yeah, this organization sounds SO promising at this moment...NOT."  It would be totally natural for my character to be bitter and resentful about how she was pushed into being a Grey Warden.  Combine that with the unpleasantness of the Joining, Alistair's revelation that we'll die prematurely, and then Riordan's big announcement...are you kidding me???  My character never asked for any of this.  If I were playing Joan of Arc, fine, but my character just wanted to get some play from Dairren and pick some locks. 

If you're not a devout Andrastian, and if you have no problem with apostates, that doesn't make your character evil.  In the same way, if you believe Morrigan's rationalizations, you are not necessarily evil (although it could be argued that you're being short sighted or naive). 

[Andraste_Reborn]

By the time my first character found out about the ritual, she'd put Alistair on the throne with herself as queen. On the off-chance that Riordan didn't make it through the battle, she learned that she would have to either a) sacrifice the last of Ferelden's royal line or leave Alistair in charge of the kingdom without her guidance.



Given that Alistair put her in charge of the Grey Wardens a matter of hours after her Joining ritual and had hitherto displayed all the leadership ability of a dead nug, she persuaded him to sleep with Morrigan. From her point of view, she was acting for the good of Ferelden, which had seen enough darkspawn, civil war and monarch-swapping to last it a while.

[DariusKalera]

I performed the ritual, no real reason not to.

If the other Wardens ask how I survived, I simply tell them the truth. "This hot chick said that if I knocked her up the person landing the killing blow would live. So yeah, I knocked her up good."

All the other Grey Wardens across the lands might think this was a good idea. They might have actively been looking for a way to survive this death blow thing, but we just don't know.

As for taking the "honorable" way out and not sleeping with her and dying, well, that's looking at the Wardens like Alistair and Cailan did. Through the lenses of myth, legend, and heroic bedtime stories.

Edit:  Though, if I remember right, at the end the story flash cards just say that Morrigan was "with child", not with "a" child.

So I think it would be hilarious if she had quadruplets or something just as karmic revenge.

Сообщение изменено: DariusKalera, 01 Декабрь 2009 - 02:28 .

[Saurel]

Selfish-act I would say without a doubt.



Should the Grey Warden be prosecuted or anything of that sort? I don't see what good it would do, and they did stop the Blight. Even if other....side effects occur later on.

[RunCDFirst]

Grey Warden's don't just fight Blights. Unless those aren't Grey Wardens in Warden's Keep.

I also don't think Morrigan plans on possessing a god child. If I understand the situation correctly, when Flemeth possesses a daughter, that daughter's soul is destroyed. If Morrigan were to replicate this procedure, she would end up destroying the very soul that she worked (hard?) to get.

TeenZombie wrote...

If you're not a devout Andrastian, and if you have no problem with apostates, that doesn't make your character evil. 

Isn't that the definition of evil?

Сообщение изменено: RunCDFirst, 01 Декабрь 2009 - 03:56 .

[mrao]

I can imagine my character having a "what the hell did I just do" moment the morning after. In the end I'd say that it is indeed a selfish decision, or at least a short sighted one. Sure, we don't know for sure what Morrigan is doing, but it's still a massive risk. You kill the archdemon, but then you have this dark promise always lingering in the back of your mind, perhaps making the victory seem hollow.

I'm certainly looking forward to an expansion or sequel where we can deal with the consequences of this action.

Сообщение изменено: mrao, 01 Декабрь 2009 - 04:11 .

[Kohaku]

mrao wrote...
I'm certainly looking forward to an expansion or sequel where we can deal with the consequences of this action.

You and me both. It's just something that intrigues me.

[Badpie]

The choice to take Morrigans offer arises ONLY out of a desire to preserve the life of your fellow Warden/friend/lover. So yes. It is selfish. But there is also something great about this. As Wynne said "love is ultimately selfish" and she is correct - whether you and Alistair were lovers or just friends who love each other - affection for each other was the ultimate deciding factor here I think.



This presents something that is both beautiful, but could also have grave consequences. It is very "human" (whether your PC is human or not) to want to spare your own life as well as the life of someone you care for. So many people would jump at the opportunity if it arose.



Is it a wrong decision? A dishonorable one? No. I don't think so. But it is one made for selfish reasons.



Alistair said the Grey Wardens had already sent "questions" about how they were able to survive. Ultimately I don't think it would have a negative affect on their standing with the Grey Wardens, but it's bound to cause a stir.



Hoping to see how this whole "old god" thing turns out.

[RunCDFirst]

Badpie wrote...

This presents something that is both beautiful, but could also have grave consequences. It is very "human" (whether your PC is human or not) to want to spare your own life as well as the life of someone you care for. So many people would jump at the opportunity if it arose.

I guess some of us are just robots... or divine.

Guess I showed the old biddy I was still capable of love and making the right choice in the end. Shows what you know, Wynne.

[Silensfurtim]

Another question is, why Alistair doesnt have any idea about the sacrifice? If I remember, he was already a Grey Warden for 6 months before he met the PC.

[RunCDFirst]

Silensfurtim wrote...

Another question is, why Alistair doesnt have any idea about the sacrifice? If I remember, he was already a Grey Warden for 6 months before he met the PC.

I think that information is on a need to know basis. Considering all the Grey Wardens stationed at Ostagar, Alistair didn't really need to know.

[Majspuffen]

I think it is a selfish act indeed. However, since your character had such little choice in becoming a grey warden, I'm not surprised that they would take the offer. My city elf, for example, did not want to die. Even though Alistair said he'd take the killing blow if needed, what would keep him from dying before reaching the archdemon? Morrigan was a nice back-up plan. My mage however, despised Morrigan and would rather die than let her have the godzilla-baby.

Another question is, why Alistair doesnt have any idea about the
sacrifice? If I remember, he was already a Grey Warden for 6 months
before he met the PC.

Alistair was probably one of the youngest Grey Wardens. I do not think Duncan expected every grey warden (save you and Alistair) would die in that battle. Had the Archdemon arrived, Duncan would probably have prefered to take the killing blow himself. If not, another older grey warden would've done it. There are many downsides of becoming a grey warden, I don't think you should tell them everything after the joining. I was pretty shocked about the sacrefices they have to make and felt bad for my character. Wouldn't be surprised if there were more downsides to it.

Сообщение изменено: Majspuffen, 01 Декабрь 2009 - 04:41 .

[ToJKa1]

I see it as a selfish act, by slaying the archdemon you have an assured way to kill it permanently and to prevent it causing any more death and destruction, and after DA there are only two more Old Gods left. As for the Old Gods being somehow necessary for the world, why would the Maker imprison them underground to be corrupted by darkspawn in that case? If the Maker wanted to destroy the world, he could've taken a more direct approach.



The ritual, however, has unknown consequences. Morrigan will most propably have a god-baby, but what that means in the long term is unknown. Of course, with your character being tainted, he/she may not be around long enough to see those consequences, and depending on the character may not care about them.



Still, i see the sacrifice as the better option for the long term, that said, none of my characters have sacrificed themselves yet. It's that loading screen tex: "..both archdemon's and Grey Warden's souls will be destroyed", then again, there are worse fates than oblivion, as the arcanewarrior trapped in the soul gem could attest to.



From a meta-gaming point of view, the ritual's achievement name is "Dark Promise", so yes, the dragon will come back to bite you in the ass, posssibly literaly.