1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Crrash wrote...

-and of course you might just be evil and actually want the old god child to be evil and destroy things

Errr... I see a problem with this one. If you want an evil powerful entity, why bother killing the Archdemon at all?

Because somehow I doubt the Archdemon would care about you bowing down before it in worship (most likely stomp on you like it did that soldier on the rooftop, whereas the old god might.

Anyway here is another thought, most of the origins start off with the PC doomed to death or imprisonment right and they are saved by Duncan, right?

So surely by the PC (male or female) either doing the deed themselves or persuading the other warden to do the deed, they are in fact taking the Duncan role in a pretty much identical situation and thus being selfless! Especially if you consider the human noble story whereby if Howe's guards had known about that other exit, Duncan would have been in trouble too.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Crrash wrote...
from the wiki: "Dragons are large, powerful, and natural animals. The
intelligence of the average dragon can be compared to that of a real
world dolphin.
"
so they are very intelligent. they are pretty happy if the followers care for the childrten and the children are ok. if you kill them all, its going to be pissed.

How do you know? I dont' recall any dragon telling you uit cares about it's follower.

what? do you even listen to yourself? we are talking about a child and if you are okay with morrigan having it. this is highly subjective. you feel it would be your child and you wouldn't trust morrigan to have sole custody of the child. thats quite alright.
i however feel that a) its a friggin old god, it'll be alright and morrigan will make sure it will be alright and we all agreed as adults that neither i nor alistair have any claim on the child and we are only helping a friend (a friend tha alistair dislikes even) to have a child (and btw, saving our own hides a nice side effect). It's how i'd act in real life and as such it's how the character whom i decided to act like me in-game will act. Call it what you want, but it is so.

You know, there are certain paramaters and things one takes into account wiht children. Child Services exist for a reason and they could never allow Morrigan to have a child. And with good reason.
Now you can say you belive Morrigan will be a great mother and it's the right and responsible thing to give it to her. Fine then. Hitler would be a great father and role model too.

ignorance truly is bliss, not that i'd recommend it. but apart from that, not being mistrusful of friends who never did you wrong, just come from a bad family and have a different worldview, is nice too.

Ignorance? Your'e sayin it's nto blind trust? do you even know what blind trust is? Let me give you an example:

A log spans over a chasm. A freind tells you the log will support your weight and is safe to cross. Now you know a bit about wood and it's properties and you walked over bridges before and you can judge for yourself how stable and safe the bridge looks. You might not be compeltely sure and take your friends word as a final assurance. That's trust.

Now that same friends tells you to jump into a big hole, since it's not deep and it's filled with water. The hole is back and poorly lit, you cannot see into it and the friend doesn't even give you an option to explore or throw a rock in it. If you jump in, then that is blind trust. See the difference?

This is what Morrigan asks of you. And basing your decisions soley on blind trust is by no possible definiton a wise thing to do.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...

Herein lies the root of the problem.  I'm not a Grey Warden, I just played one in a video game.  When making decisions in the video game, I am making them as my character.  This thread doesn't ask if I would do this as a human being.  It asks if I thought doing the ritual as a Grey Warden was a selfish act.  Since I'm not a Grey Warden in real life, what I might do, and what you might do in real life is irrelevant to the topic.  So, your points are both off topic, and irrelevant then.  Glad we cleared this up.

The thread move beyond jsut exploring if the ritual is a selfish act. We're also convering if it's a smart/wise choice.
When figuring that out only thing that matters is:
1) what are known facts
2) what are the goals

So no.
I played the game as different characters with different thoughts and motivations. It doesn't matter if I hate the Chantry and all humans and want to bring and Old God back or if I'm an devout Andrastian human suprematists.
It doesn't matter if I'm an amoral mercenary or a goody boy scout. 
The facts don't change. The goals might, but the fact don't.

It remains an unwise decision. It remain a morally questionable decision.

[Layn]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ignorance? Your'e sayin it's nto blind trust? do you even know what blind trust is?

sorry, i only put that there because it came up in my mind. wasn't really part of my argument. i guess i should consider a bit more carefully what i write. yes, i know what blind trust is.

and to your example: it's a friend, i expect them to not want me to be harmed. Depending on how close that friend really is and who it is, i'd jump in immediately or first would try to make sure that they aren't actually completely clueless of what is down there.


you said more stuff, but im really hungry and food doesn't make itself (GAH so late already!)

Modifié par Crrash, 09 décembre 2009 - 08:52 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It remains an unwise decision. It remain a morally questionable decision.

You are aware of the fact that both concepts you used here are subjective, right?

[Felene]

A captain cannot cheat death.

You are a Grey Warden, it is your job to end the Blight whether you like it or not.

For me the dark ritual is cheat death, you end the Blight with the possibility of creating another Blight.

Since we didn't know if the Old God child will be or will not be another start of a new Blight.

You either sacrifice yourself, or sacrifice someone else, that is it.

Instead you choose to cheat death for your personal gain and a Morrigan's personal gain.

You put yourself and Morrigan above all life on Thedas and dame the future just because you don't want to die?

The Dark Ritual is a very VERY selfish act for a Grey Warden. It is even worse than join the darkspawn once your time for the Calling has come.

Modifié par Felene, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:05 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Felene wrote...

A captain cannot cheat death.
You are a Grey Warden, it is your job to end the Blight whether you like it or not.
Being a Grey Warden along is a death sentence, even you survive the battle, you still need to go through the Calling, you will die for sure.
For me the dark ritual is cheat death, you end the Blight with the possibility of creating another Blight.
Since we didn't know if the Old God child will be or will not be another start of a new Blight.
You either sacrifice yourself, or sacrifice someone else, that is it.
Instead you choose to cheat death for your personal gain and a Morrigan's personal gain.
You put yourself and Morrigan above all life on Thedas and dame the future just because you don't want to die?
The Dark Ritual is a very VERY selfish act for a Grey Warden. It is even worse than join the darkspawn once your time for the Calling has come.

You should go around slaughtering women, then.

[robertthebard]

Felene wrote...

A captain cannot cheat death.
You are a Grey Warden, it is your job to end the Blight whether you like it or not.
Being a Grey Warden along is a death sentence, even you survive the battle, you still need to go through the Calling, you will die for sure.
For me the dark ritual is cheat death, you end the Blight with the possibility of creating another Blight.
Since we didn't know if the Old God child will be or will not be another start of a new Blight.
You either sacrifice yourself, or sacrifice someone else, that is it.
Instead you choose to cheat death for your personal gain and a Morrigan's personal gain.
You put yourself and Morrigan above all life on Thedas and dame the future just because you don't want to die?
The Dark Ritual is a very VERY selfish act for a Grey Warden. It is even worse than join the darkspawn once your time for the Calling has come.

While I agree that it is a selfish act, I can perfectly justify my use of it, the one time I did.  As I stated before, my character was a female City Elf.  She was conscripted into the Wardens to avoid a death sentence, or worse, for killing Vaughn, despite the fact that he desperately deserved to die.  More accurately, he deserved to be imprisoned, and maybe executed by his own father, but since it's an Alienage's word against the son of an Arl, he got what justice he was going to get at the point of my sword.  For this, my "reward" is to be conscripted into the Grey Wardens, another death sentence, only one that gives me about 30 years to live.  Understand that at the time you take this "deal", you have no idea that you will be forced to drink darkspawn blood, with a good chance of dieing on the spot, and that in so doing you would give yourself 30 years to live.  The Joining you find out about in Ostagar, and you don't find out what it entails until it happens.  The rest you learn as you go along.

As I said before, my character did not join the Wardens for altruistic reasons.  Saving Denerim, barring the Alienage, is the furthest thing from her mind.  On the eve of riding out to meet the army, and the Archdemon, she finds out that somebody has to die, either her, or at this time one of two other surviving Grey Wardens.  Riordan is nobody, if he were to die it would mean nothing.  However, Loghain is supposed to live as a Grey Warden, this was my ideal punishment for what he'd done to the order since Ostagar.  Allowing him to die is not an option, and she isn't ready to give her life for the humans that subjegated her to the point where she had two choices, die or worse in the Arl's dungeon, or become a Grey Warden.  Barring how short the game would be, she has to count herself lucky to have survived the joining.  She gets an out, a way to assure that Loghain pays for his crimes, as she intended he pay, and to assure that she doesn't have to die, and can still stop the blight, even though she's not thrilled about saving the humans.  She takes the out.

Yes, this is selfish, but beyond that, it is nothing.  All these "causing another blight" arguments are smoke and mirrors.  Nobody knows what will happen, but it is highly likely that the Warden taint in the child will overcome the darkspawn taint in the Old God's soul, and possibly the taints might cancel eachother out.  This, like the "you'll cause another blight" arguments is purely speculation, but as far as I can see, it's just as likely to happen my way as that way.  However, even if it's true, my character isn't thinking about 30 years from now, she's thinking about right now, and tomorrow.  She's looking out for Number 1, and frankly, if nobody liked it, they could literally kiss her ass as far as she's concerned.  She did not ask to be the leader of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden.  That position, just like being a Warden in the first place, was thrust upon her.  The person that thrust this responsibility upon her decided to bail before the final battle with what she saw as typical human cowardice.  Why should she make the ultimate sacrifice to save people like him?

[Volourn]

"Errr... I see a problem with this one. If you want an evil powerful entity, why bother killing the Archdemon at all?"



Because you can't control the archdemon. You *might* be able to control the rbeorn old god baby.





"You know, there are certain paramaters and things one takes into account wiht children. Child Services exist for a reason and they could never allow Morrigan to have a child. And with good reason."



Wrong. Morrigan has done nothing to warrnat a fictional Child Services to take her child away. BtTW, CS can';t 'dissalow' someone from having a child - not even in the real world. On top of this, even criminals in the real world actually have chidlren and are allowed to keep them. You apprantly don't know how CS actually works.





"Now you can say you belive Morrigan will be a great mother and it's the right and responsible thing to give it to her. Fine then. Hitler would be a great father and role model too."



LMAO Did you *really* go there? Did you really compare Morrigan to Hitler? HAHAHAHA!



I believe Morrigan would be the best mother she could be. I've been given no reason in game not to believe otherwise.





"You are a Grey Warden, it is your job to end the Blight whether you like it or not."



This argument is very weak as pretty much every PC in the game could be forced into being a GW so no, it's not their 'job' if they don't wnat. Whose gonna kmill them? Not Duncan anymore. HAHAHA!



"For me the dark ritual is cheat death, you end the Blight with the possibility of creating another Blight."



For me, the dark ritual is a way to cheat a CURSE, I end the Blight, make my lover happy which is what you should try to do when in love with someone with the possibility of saving the sould of the Goddess of Love.



So, I put myself , Morrigan, my GW friends, a soul of potnetially a good god, and all of Thedas above some evil curse that was forced on me.



But, yeah, it's better to let the CURSE run its course and BECOME one of things I fight.



That logic sucks.



Remember, guys, the archdemon is a tainted old god. The old god is not neccessarily more evil than all those poor innocent dwarves that Branka damned. Are you as evil, crazy,and unfeeling as Branka that you would damn an innocent soul to utter destruction when it has as far as you know committed no crime?



That's like killing someone accused of murder/rape before investigating.



That's what Morrigan's Ritual was to me, and why it was a good thing all the way around.

[Arvay5]

lol I do not understand why some people would want to die fighting some demon, glory and honor are nice and all but saving my own ass is much more rewarding, (because you are actually around to appreciate that glory) (= and in response to Felene's comment... have you even considered that saving your own life might actually help everyone else? If you have gone this far to save the world then why would you stop now or let Morrigan destroy it with her old god/child (though this depends on your outlook of things but I am trying to say that it is not always bad to live another day)

[Leonnie]

In my first play-through, I went for the happy ending by choosing the ritual. In retrospect, I thought it was very uncharacteristic of a Grey Warden. One of the hints that suggested it meant trouble down the line was the epilogue where it mentioned that Alistair had to travel to Weisshaupt Fortress. It only mentioned that he left and promised to return. I thought that was a little weird... possibly meaning that he had something to answer for there.

[Felene]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

You should go around slaughtering women, then.

I totally fail to see your point.
Can you be more specific?

[Kreid]

The dark ritual isn't even selfish, Grey Wardens are individuals prepared to give their lives to end the Blight but that doesn't mean they should just go that route if a different way appears, the Grey Wardens of the past didn't know/didn't have the possibility to do this but it doesn't mean they wouldn't or that they are more honorable than you.

You assume that the old god child will be some kind of abomination or that it will lead another Blight but we have no idea of how it will turn, depending on your perception of Morrigan you can think something or another but we don't have any idea, what if that child grows to become a formidable force against the next Blight with a power comparable to the Archdemon but in the side of humankind?

Modifié par Creid-X, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:05 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Felene wrote...

I totally fail to see your point.
Can you be more specific?

Every woman in Lothering and Denerim should die by the logic you used.  They all have a chance to become brood mothers.  'Course, you can't really justify Denerim because you don't know the darkspawn are gonna take it.  The ones in Lothering should be, though.

[Felene]

robertthebard wrote...
snip

The point of conscription was never intent to avoid death.
Duncan recruits your PC in believing she can be more helpful to the world instead of lying around dead.
Be a Grey Warden itself is a death sentence.

However, Loghain is supposed to live as a Grey Warden, this was my ideal punishment for what he'd done to the order since Ostagar.

You contradict yourself here.
Your PC were to live as a Grey Warden, it is her punishment for killing the guardsman and possibly Vaughn.
Despite the fact they deserve it or not, she still commits the crime.
Or you think your PC is not guilty of her crimes.
The guardsman and possibly Vaughn force her hands, so she should go back and live happy thereafter for she did the “right thing”.
Seriously, society need more people like her.
As for the Joining and the true meaning of being a Grey Warden, it is weird why they won’t inform the ones they conscripted from death sentence. I suppose there in no harm telling those that are going to die if they refuse to join.
But, still, if she knows what is going to happen, die saving the world, will she refuse to be a Grey Warden and be kill right then and there?

So in the end your PC doesn’t believe in saving the Alienage is the “right thing” to do thus refuse to give her life for it and other candidates have reason to live therefore when Morrigan jumps in offer you a deal you agree on the spot.

Yes, this is selfish, but beyond that, it is nothing.

Nothing but selfish, I agree.

All these "causing another blight" arguments are smoke and mirrors.

Not if it is possible. And more importantly, you can’t deny the fact the Old God child can be the start of another Blight.
Your PC doesn’t know for sure, so she gambles with the future of Thedas. Not herself. If your PC is wrong, she doesn’t have to pay for the consequences, but get away with it.
At this point, how can you say the guardsman and possibly Vaughn deserve to die while she walks away with it?
Allow me to repeat, “A captain cannot cheat death.”
It is the joy of leadership, power, and responsibility.
Your PC was put into leadership with the power she can wield while she refuses the responsibility that comes with it.

She did not ask to be the leader of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden. That position, just like being a Warden in the first place, was thrust upon her.

Yup, cry more and whine more.
My PC’s life sucks and she had a terrible life and it is not what she wants.
So she can just throw away all responsibility to the trashcan and use the fame and fortune it brought with it and finally start a life she wants.
Alistair is better than your PC at this point.
Oghren is way better than your PC at this point.
One can only hope for people like your PC never get any power than what she can took responsibility of.

Volourn wrote...
snip

I don’t know what to say except I think this game is rated for mature not rated for everyone.
Yup, I didn’t say rated for teen.

Arvay5 wrote...
… have you even considered that saving your own life might actually help everyone else? If you have gone this far to save the world then why would you stop now or let Morrigan destroy it with her old god/child (though this depends on your outlook of things but I am trying to say that it is not always bad to live another day)

So far in all my play through.
My human noble sacrifice herself.
My human mage let Alistair sacrifice himself.
My city elf let Loghain sacrifice himself.
My elven mage took Morrigan’s offer.
You can’t live with the fame and respect without consequences.
I find it odd on people who still think they can dame the consequences after playing the game.
For the game itself, it’s all about choice and consequences.

Modifié par Felene, 10 décembre 2009 - 02:54 .

[Felene]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Every woman in Lothering and Denerim should die by the logic you used.  They all have a chance to become brood mothers.  'Course, you can't really justify Denerim because you don't know the darkspawn are gonna take it.  The ones in Lothering should be, though.

That is not my logic.
You clearly does not understand the verse "A captain cannot cheat death."

[Melkor-Son of None]

[quote]Volourn wrote...

"What would Duncan have done?" (my quote)

Are you trying to pretend that Duncan is some high authority when it comes to morality? Kiddin' right? Duncan, and the Grey Wardens are not good guys. In fact, in many ways, they're not that much better than the Blight outside of the fact they are intelligent and communicative. He can commit so many heinous acts and he's only in the game for a short time.  (Volourn quote)


Don't put words in my mouth. Simply answer what I said: "What would Duncan have done?". The answer is, he would do what is necessary to defeat the Blight.  (Me)
 
"In fact, in many ways, they're not that much better than the Blight...".  (V)

Ummm....OKAY. The Blight have sworn an oath the protect the world and put all others above themselves....Right? The Grey Wardens go around, dragging people underground, and devouring them...Right? The Grey Wardens want the destruction of the world?  (Me)

Try again...

Modifié par Melkor-Son of None, 10 décembre 2009 - 03:15 .

[marshalleck]

Felene wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Every woman in Lothering and Denerim should die by the logic you used.  They all have a chance to become brood mothers.  'Course, you can't really justify Denerim because you don't know the darkspawn are gonna take it.  The ones in Lothering should be, though.

That is not my logic.
You clearly does not understand the verse "A captain cannot cheat death."

Except my Warden did. Idealism always yields to reality, not the other way around.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 03:34 .

[Melkor-Son of None]

The people who say: "My PC was forced into the Grey Wardens, so it is not my job to end the Blight." I have this...

Wouldn't the selfless act be to forget how you became a Grey Warden, put behind all the wrongs done unto you, and put all other life above your own? Wouldn't that be considered selfless?

Your PC is now a Grey Warden, so they need to accept that. They will die no matter what, so should they not end the Bight in the for sure way (Sacrifice yourself) instead of the: "I have no idea what will come of this, but oh well" way (Ritual)?

If you think that you are not responsible for ending the Blight and saving the people of Fereldan, just because you feel as if you were treated wrongly, I will not hesitate to call you a selfish bast*rd.

[marshalleck]

Melkor-Son of None wrote...

The people who say: "My PC was forced into the Grey Wardens, so it is not my job to end the Blight." I have this...

Wouldn't the selfless act be to forget how you became a Grey Warden, put behind all the wrongs done unto you, and put all other life above your own? Wouldn't that be considered selfless?

Your PC is now a Grey Warden, so they need to accept that. They will die no matter what, so should they not end the Bight in the for sure way (Sacrifice yourself) instead of the: "I have no idea what will come of this, but oh well" way (Ritual)?

If you think that you are not responsible for ending the Blight and saving the people of Fereldan, just because you feel as if you were treated wrongly, I will not hesitate to call you a selfish bast*rd.

Who is saying it's not their job to end the Blight? Ending the Blight is in everyone's interest, since it threatens all.

My Mage ended the Blight, but saw great potential and promise for himself and all other enslaved magic-users in cleansing the spirit of an old god and restoring it to the world. That and the ultimate goal of ending the Blight align, so that's the decision he made.

Accepting the responsibility of ending the Blight doesn't mean one has to accept all the dogma and tradition of the Grey Wardens with all their blustering about sacrifice. My Mage saw joining the Wardens as an opportunity to slip the leash placed on him by the Tower. He took it. He understood and fulfilled his obligation to end the Blight in a manner he saw fit, since as far as he knew, he and Alistair were the only Wardens left in all of Ferelden.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 03:48 .

[circa89]

Pexxithan wrote...

How is it bad? We only assume it's bad because it's not the normal route that Grey Wardens take when felling an archdemon. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Grey Wardens never really looked at survival from killing the archdemon because of the fact that they have already resigned themselves to their fate from the start. In fact they are told (if not immediately before) after the Joining that being a Grey Warden is a death sentence. Just because it's what they are expected to do, doesn't make it the good option.

Because it's dishonorable.

[Melkor-Son of None]

"Who is saying it's not their job to end the Blight? Ending the Blight is in everyone's interest, since it threatens all."

Volourn has this to say...

This argument is very weak as pretty much every PC in the game could be forced into being a GW so no, it's not their 'job' if they don't wnat. Whose gonna kmill them? Not Duncan anymore. HAHAHA!

[Felene]

marshalleck wrote...

Who is saying it's not their job to end the Blight? Ending the Blight is in everyone's interest, since it threatens all.

My Mage ended the Blight, but saw great potential and promise for himself and all other enslaved magic-users in cleansing the spirit of an old god and restoring it to the world. That and the ultimate goal of ending the Blight align, so that's the decision he made.

Accepting the responsibility of ending the Blight doesn't mean one has to accept all the dogma and tradition of the Grey Wardens with all their blustering about sacrifice. My Mage saw joining the Wardens as an opportunity to slip the leash placed on him by the Tower. He took it. He understood and fulfilled his obligation to end the Blight in a manner he saw fit, since as far as he knew, he and Alistair were the only Wardens left in all of Ferelden.

I hope your PC is right.
If he is wrong, I hope he can and will take all the consequences and responsibility of his action.
I hope you do realize if he fail, all mages will take the consequences of his action and I hope you learn something from the Mage Tower quest.

I am such a idealist, I hope reality is not as cold as it appear to be.

Modifié par Felene, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:03 .

[marshalleck]

circa89 wrote...

Pexxithan wrote...

How is it bad? We only assume it's bad because it's not the normal route that Grey Wardens take when felling an archdemon. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Grey Wardens never really looked at survival from killing the archdemon because of the fact that they have already resigned themselves to their fate from the start. In fact they are told (if not immediately before) after the Joining that being a Grey Warden is a death sentence. Just because it's what they are expected to do, doesn't make it the good option.

Because it's dishonorable.

Well that's just short-sighted, but it's a very favorable outlook to foster in one's pawns.

[Felene]

Melkor-Son of None wrote...


"Who is saying it's not their job to end the Blight? Ending the Blight is in everyone's interest, since it threatens all."

Volourn has this to say...

This argument is very weak as pretty much every PC in the game could be forced into being a GW so no, it's not their 'job' if they don't wnat. Whose gonna kmill them? Not Duncan anymore. HAHAHA!

Volourn is a troll and possibily has his/her mental age at 3.

Modifié par Felene, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:18 .