1807 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Felene wrote...

I hope your PC is right.
If he is wrong, I hope he can and will take all the consequences and responsibility of his action.
I hope you do realize if he fail, all mages will take the consequences of his action and I hope you learn something from the Mage Tower quest.

I am such a idealism, I hope reality is not as cold as it appear to be.

"I brought you into this world, and I'll take you out..." 

Of course. If things go all pear-shaped as a result of his decisions, he is at least still alive to clean up his mess. It's somewhat of a gamble, but it was his gamble to make by virtue of the fact that nobody else in all of Ferelden was capable of marshalling forces to fight against the Archdemon, so his methods are not open to debate (this is my character's in-game position of course, it is open to debate on the forum).

[marshalleck]

Melkor-Son of None wrote...


"Who is saying it's not their job to end the Blight? Ending the Blight is in everyone's interest, since it threatens all."

Volourn has this to say...

This argument is very weak as pretty much every PC in the game could be forced into being a GW so no, it's not their 'job' if they don't wnat. Whose gonna kmill them? Not Duncan anymore. HAHAHA!

I see. I had missed that. Point.

[Felene]

marshalleck wrote...
"I brought you into this world, and I'll take you out..."
Of course. If things go all pear-shaped as a result of his decisions, he is at least still alive to clean up his mess. It's somewhat of a gamble, but it was his gamble to make by virtue of the fact that nobody else in all of Ferelden was capable of marshalling forces to fight against the Archdemon, so his methods are not open to debate (this is my character's in-game position of course, it is open to debate on the forum).

The purpose of my previous post is simply to point out your PC is a idealist when he made that choice.

Modifié par Felene, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:17 .

[Felene]

Pexxithan wrote...



How is it bad? We only assume it's bad because it's not the normal route that Grey Wardens take when felling an archdemon. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Grey Wardens never really looked at survival from killing the archdemon because of the fact that they have already resigned themselves to their fate from the start. In fact they are told (if not immediately before) after the Joining that being a Grey Warden is a death sentence. Just because it's what they are expected to do, doesn't make it the good option.

I doubt that.

Flemeth has being alive for many centuries.

There is a possibility that herself or one of her daughter did offer the same to Garahel or the Grey Wardens before him.

If she or her daughter did make the offer, it is obvious what Garahel and others before him choose.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Felene wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Every woman in Lothering and Denerim should die by the logic you used.  They all have a chance to become brood mothers.  'Course, you can't really justify Denerim because you don't know the darkspawn are gonna take it.  The ones in Lothering should be, though.

That is not my logic.
You clearly does not understand the verse "A captain cannot cheat death."

Except that the verse has no truth in this situation.  You can indeed cheat death and accomplish the same end.

[Ravauviel]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Felene wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Every woman in Lothering and Denerim should die by the logic you used.  They all have a chance to become brood mothers.  'Course, you can't really justify Denerim because you don't know the darkspawn are gonna take it.  The ones in Lothering should be, though.

That is not my logic.
You clearly does not understand the verse "A captain cannot cheat death."

Except that the verse has no truth in this situation.  You can indeed cheat death and accomplish the same end.

Not really the "same end" when it has been modified by a caveat.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Ravauviel wrote...

Not really the "same end" when it has been modified by a caveat.

I was referring to the thrust of the post, which is the defeat of the Archdemon.  However, you are correct.  There is also a child bearing the soul of an Old God (maybe) being borne by Morrigan.  It's arguable as to whether that is a positive or a negative thing, but it doesn't change the direct outcome: the Blight is over.

[Felene]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Felene wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Every woman in Lothering and Denerim should die by the logic you used.  They all have a chance to become brood mothers.  'Course, you can't really justify Denerim because you don't know the darkspawn are gonna take it.  The ones in Lothering should be, though.

That is not my logic.
You clearly does not understand the verse "A captain cannot cheat death."

Except that the verse has no truth in this situation.  You can indeed cheat death and accomplish the same end.

Here is how I look at it, for those who doesn't understand the verse.

PC is a Grey Warden being force to lead and build an army to end the Blight.

Thus a leader with power and responsibility, whether he likes it or not.

In order to end the Blight, PC must either sacrifice himself, or sacrifice someone else.

Therefore, a captain cannot cheat death.

[marshalleck]

Felene wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Felene wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Every woman in Lothering and Denerim should die by the logic you used.  They all have a chance to become brood mothers.  'Course, you can't really justify Denerim because you don't know the darkspawn are gonna take it.  The ones in Lothering should be, though.

That is not my logic.
You clearly does not understand the verse "A captain cannot cheat death."

Except that the verse has no truth in this situation.  You can indeed cheat death and accomplish the same end.

Here is how I look at it, for those who doesn't understand the verse.

PC is a Grey Warden being force to lead and build an army to end the Blight.

Thus a leader with power and responsibility, whether he likes it or not.

In order to end the Blight, PC must either sacrifice himself, or sacrifice someone else.

Therefore, a captain cannot cheat death.

But Morrigan's ritual creates a loophole which nullifies your little idiom about the captain. That is why I said idealism yields to reality.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Felene wrote...

Here is how I look at it, for those who doesn't understand the verse.

PC is a Grey Warden being force to lead and build an army to end the Blight.

Thus a leader with power and responsibility, whether he likes it or not.

In order to end the Blight, PC must either sacrifice himself, or sacrifice someone else.

Therefore, a captain cannot cheat death.

See, but that's just not true.  You can end the Blight without directly sacrificing a life to kill the Archdemon.  You can even redeem one life.

[Ravauviel]

marshalleck wrote...

Felene wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Felene wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Every woman in Lothering and Denerim should die by the logic you used.  They all have a chance to become brood mothers.  'Course, you can't really justify Denerim because you don't know the darkspawn are gonna take it.  The ones in Lothering should be, though.

That is not my logic.
You clearly does not understand the verse "A captain cannot cheat death."

Except that the verse has no truth in this situation.  You can indeed cheat death and accomplish the same end.

Here is how I look at it, for those who doesn't understand the verse.

PC is a Grey Warden being force to lead and build an army to end the Blight.

Thus a leader with power and responsibility, whether he likes it or not.

In order to end the Blight, PC must either sacrifice himself, or sacrifice someone else.

Therefore, a captain cannot cheat death.

But Morrigan's ritual creates a loophole which nullifies your little idiom about the captain. That is why I said idealism yields to reality.

Regardless of how people justify it (and I can respect their justification), that choice will only be accepted by characters who are ultimately "looking out for number one" which does make it inherently selfish. Nothing wrong with that perse, especially since egocentrism is an intrinsic part of "basic" human nature.

[Lughsan35]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Felene wrote...

Here is how I look at it, for those who doesn't understand the verse.

PC is a Grey Warden being force to lead and build an army to end the Blight.

Thus a leader with power and responsibility, whether he likes it or not.

In order to end the Blight, PC must either sacrifice himself, or sacrifice someone else.

Therefore, a captain cannot cheat death.

See, but that's just not true.  You can end the Blight without directly sacrificing a life to kill the Archdemon.  You can even redeem one life.

Two Actually as the child is yours or Alisters and you redeem one of the two remaining wardens who didn't HAI Kamikaze suicide leap on a dragon from a tower...

[Aedan_Cousland]

I don't think the Dark Ritual is evil, but it definitely isn't good. There are a lot of risks associated with the ritual, especially since no one really knows who or what the child is going to be when it matures. That the Grey Warden is willing to risk creating a monster or abomination of potentially epic proportions, out of desire for self-preservation, is more than a little selfish.

[marshalleck]

Ravauviel wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

But Morrigan's ritual creates a loophole which nullifies your little idiom about the captain. That is why I said idealism yields to reality.

Regardless of how people justify it (and I can respect their justification), that choice will only be accepted by characters who are ultimately "looking out for number one" which does make it inherently selfish. Nothing wrong with that perse, especially since egocentrism is an intrinsic part of "basic" human nature.

It's not a justification. It's a statement of fact. There are three options: sacrifice yourself, sacrifice someone else, sacrifice nobody.

That makes the captain idiom (someone must be sacrificed) not applicable.

One has to look at the context of the options to make a (subjective) value judgement about which is the "best", but that does not change which options are available.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 05:48 .

[Asante81]

All right, I finally decided to give my 5 cents too. And I don't care about maybe repeating other peoples' arguments. I'm describing it from my characters ingame point of view (the one who did that ritual).

She was a Warden who gave EVERYONE second chances. Everytime trying to find the best way possible for all beings involved.
Now Morrigan, a woman she loves as a friend and trusts, even if she wasn't honest all the time, is shrewd and actually unlovable, makes an offer. She trusts her, because she was able to look behind Morrigan's facade of the unlovable, untrustworthy bitc.h. And discovered a woman, who never understood society nor social interactions because of the way she was raised. But does that make her evil or untrustworthy from the very beginning? No, it doesn't. Morrigan didn't tell her important things from the beginning, but who does that without knowing someone good enough to reveal such secrets?
Now, back to the ritual. Morrigan finally reveals to her, that this was a thing that stood in the room from the very beginning. Actually from BEFORE they ever met. Did it make my character happy to get to know about it that late? No, it didn't. But she could understand it. Maybe she would have never believed Morrigan if she would have revealed it earlier. And Morrigan couldn't have been sure if my character was worth being told the truth about the nature of the ritual. She could have made up a lie about it and the outcome. She didn't. It wasn't an easy decision for Morrigan, to be honest about it.
So, my character goes to Alistair. The man she loves, the future king of Ferelden. She tells him about it. And she tells him everything. Trusting his judgement, because she knows he's a person who doesn't take things lightly, who tries to do the right thing. They discuss the matter. Both know, fulfilling their duty as a Grey Warden, sacrificing themselves, comes first. Their love is not the reason for doing it.
But, coming back to "giving everyone a second chance". Is this situation so different than rescuing Connor? Is it so different than risking a travel of several days, letting him ravage through the castle to save not only his, but his mother's life as well?. The Old God who became the archdemon is innocent in becoming tainted. He was hibernating somewhere deep within the mountains. Defenseless against the infection with the blight. He is not to blame for his action in blind rage caused by a disease.
Is it sure, that the soul of the god will be pure of the taint and good by nature? No, it isn't. She knows that. But she trusts Morrigan to do the best she can to educate the child in a way that doesn't cause it to start going on a rampage through Thedas. Why does she trust her in that? Why should she trust a friend less than people she does not know? It is, as I already said, an act of a second chance.
And, it not only is a second chance for the god's soul, but it's a chance for every grey warden as well. Is it a bad thing to want to change something? Who said that the wardens will disapprove on it? Who said it's their nature given duty to die together with the archdemon? Just because no one knew of the other way? A way that is giving hope for TWO living beings, not only one.
My character thinks, that preserving life is a good thing and that you should sometimes risk something for it. Will she face the child if something goes wrong? Yes, she will, because she knows it will be her responsibility. And she will take the responsibility for all evil that comes out of it IF it comes out of it. And then everyone will know it was a false decision. You cannot find out some things if you don't risk testing it.
So, in choosing the ritual, she was braver than taking the easy way with a glorious sacrifice of herself. Because taking that responsibility is NOT the easy way. It's a grave decision that will change a lot. To the better, or the worse. But it's a chance worth being taken.

[Ravauviel]

marshalleck wrote...

Ravauviel wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

But Morrigan's ritual creates a loophole which nullifies your little idiom about the captain. That is why I said idealism yields to reality.

Regardless of how people justify it (and I can respect their justification), that choice will only be accepted by characters who are ultimately "looking out for number one" which does make it inherently selfish. Nothing wrong with that perse, especially since egocentrism is an intrinsic part of "basic" human nature.

It's not a justification. It's a statement of fact. There are three options: sacrifice yourself, sacrifice someone else, sacrifice nobody.

That makes the captain idiom (someone must be sacrificed) not applicable.

One has to look at the context of the options to make a (subjective) value judgement about which is the "best", but that does not change which options are available.

I was obviously alluding to "in-character" justification inherent in that choice. Delineating the Grey Warden (an institution - objective) from the PC (a human - subjective) makes the selfless/selfish dichotomy clearer. The captain idiom has clear applicability if the PC regards herself as beholden to the institution of the Grey Wardens which demands a self-sacrifice to end the Blight.

[circa89]

marshalleck wrote...

circa89 wrote...

Pexxithan wrote...

How is it bad? We only assume it's bad because it's not the normal route that Grey Wardens take when felling an archdemon. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Grey Wardens never really looked at survival from killing the archdemon because of the fact that they have already resigned themselves to their fate from the start. In fact they are told (if not immediately before) after the Joining that being a Grey Warden is a death sentence. Just because it's what they are expected to do, doesn't make it the good option.

Because it's dishonorable.

Well that's just short-sighted, but it's a very favorable outlook to foster in one's pawns.

What do you mean it's short-sighted? Grey Wardens are supposed to be honorable; ditching your own death and putting it into a demon baby sure doesn't sound honorable to me.

[marshalleck]

circa89 wrote...

What do you mean it's short-sighted? Grey Wardens are supposed to be honorable;

No. Grey Wardens end Blights. At any cost. Period.

If torching a village would give Duncan a shot at an Archdemon, he would do it. He would not savor the death of innocents, but he would do what's necessary.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:03 .

[marshalleck]

[double post]

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:01 .

[Felene]

marshalleck wrote...

But Morrigan's ritual creates a loophole which nullifies your little idiom about the captain. That is why I said idealism yields to reality.

When are you going to realize you are the one who live in the idealism of yourself?

"A captain cannot cheat death." It is only a metaphor.

What it really means is a leader cannot forsake his/her duty and responsibility.

PC is a Grey Warden, what do Grey Warden do?

"In war, victory. In peace, vigilance. In death, sacrifice." - Grey Wardens' motto

To end the Blight at all cost. To prevent the Blight at all cost. Include death.

Morrigan's offer is the complete opposite of what a Grey Warden and a leader should do.

And what if PC took Morrigan's offer?

PC live for another 30 years then what? PC is still going to die when the Calling come.

Or maybe the PC still does not accept his/her death at that point and instead, join the darkspawn.

Wow! Congratulation PC, you just become the very monster you try to save the world from.

The ultimate evil path lies before the PC isn't it?

Even worse, darkspawn might not have a choice in what they do, and PC choose it willingly.

Or one can simply say "I am going to end the Blight once for all from the inside!"

Seriously, who are you trying to kid yourself with?

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

See, but that's just not true. You can end the Blight without directly sacrificing a life to kill the Archdemon. You can even redeem one life.

And with the possibility of starting a new Blight? Which is sacrificing more life indirectly?

Even if the child never become a archdemon.

Do you know what Morrigan's plan is for the child?

Can you promise all life on Thedas that Morrigan or the child is not going to do something stupid that doom anything and everything on Thedas?

Can you promise you will undo every mistakes you make?

Do not gamble with something larger than yourself on the table.

Modifié par Felene, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:47 .

[marshalleck]

Felene wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
But Morrigan's ritual creates a loophole which nullifies your little idiom about the captain. That is why I said idealism yields to reality.

When are you going to realize you are the one who live in the idealism of yourself?

"A captain cannot cheat death." It is only a metaphor.
What it really means is a leader cannot forsake his/her duty and responsibility.
PC is a Grey Warden, what do Grey Warden do?
"In war, victory. In peace, vigilance. In death, sacrifice." - Grey Wardens' motto
To end the Blight at all cost. To prevent the Blight at all cost. Include death.
Morrigan's offer is the complete opposite of what a Grey Warden and a leader should do.
And what if PC took Morrigan's offer?
PC live for another 30 years then what? PC is still going to die when the Calling come.
Or maybe the PC still does not accept his/her death at that point and instead, join the darkspawn.
Wow! Congratulation PC, you just become the very monster you try to save the world from.
The ultimate evil path lies before the PC isn't it?
Even worse, darkspawn might not have a choice in what they do, and PC choose it willingly.
Or one can simply say "I am going to end the Blight once for all from the inside!"
Seriously, who are you trying to kid yourself with?

Very simple question: is the Blight ended or not at the end of the game? It either is or it is not. Which is it?

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:08 .

[circa89]

marshalleck wrote...

circa89 wrote...

What do you mean it's short-sighted? Grey Wardens are supposed to be honorable;

No. Grey Wardens end Blights. At any cost. Period.

If torching a village would give Duncan a shot at an Archdemon, he would do it. He would not savor the death of innocents, but he would do what's necessary.

Because it's soooooo much better to be an **** and garner hate when you just killed the guy that said you were doing exactly that (Loghain for me) I'd rather not tarnish the name Grey Wardens when I just went through all of the trouble of CLEARING IT UP.

[marshalleck]

circa89 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

circa89 wrote...

What do you mean it's short-sighted? Grey Wardens are supposed to be honorable;

No. Grey Wardens end Blights. At any cost. Period.

If torching a village would give Duncan a shot at an Archdemon, he would do it. He would not savor the death of innocents, but he would do what's necessary.

Because it's soooooo much better to be an **** and garner hate when you just killed the guy that said you were doing exactly that (Loghain for me) I'd rather not tarnish the name Grey Wardens when I just went through all of the trouble of CLEARING IT UP.

That's fine and it's your choice, but don't claim that Grey Wardens exist to be paladins, because they clearly do not. That's why they are called Grey Wardens, not White Wardens, or Black Wardens.

[Asante81]

And I still don't see how trying to save two beings instead of killing two beings is selfish... *shrugs*

Doesn't matter that one of them is actually YOU.

[Ravauviel]

marshalleck wrote...

Felene wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
But Morrigan's ritual creates a loophole which nullifies your little idiom about the captain. That is why I said idealism yields to reality.

When are you going to realize you are the one who live in the idealism of yourself?

"A captain cannot cheat death." It is only a metaphor.
What it really means is a leader cannot forsake his/her duty and responsibility.
PC is a Grey Warden, what do Grey Warden do?
"In war, victory. In peace, vigilance. In death, sacrifice." - Grey Wardens' motto
To end the Blight at all cost. To prevent the Blight at all cost. Include death.
Morrigan's offer is the complete opposite of what a Grey Warden and a leader should do.
And what if PC took Morrigan's offer?
PC live for another 30 years then what? PC is still going to die when the Calling come.
Or maybe the PC still does not accept his/her death at that point and instead, join the darkspawn.
Wow! Congratulation PC, you just become the very monster you try to save the world from.
The ultimate evil path lies before the PC isn't it?
Even worse, darkspawn might not have a choice in what they do, and PC choose it willingly.
Or one can simply say "I am going to end the Blight once for all from the inside!"
Seriously, who are you trying to kid yourself with?

Very simple question: is the Blight ended or not at the end of the game? It either is or it is not. Which is it?

As I mentioned before, that is not the point. The crux of her argument and in fact that very purpose of this thread is whether the dark ritual is a selfish choice as a "Grey Warden" independent of whether the Blight ended regardless.