1807 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Ravauviel wrote...

As I mentioned before, that is not the point. The crux of her argument and in fact that very purpose of this thread is whether the dark ritual is a selfish choice as a "Grey Warden" independent of whether the Blight ended regardless.

The thread has long evolved past whether the choice is selfish or not. If you're interested in my own personal justification I provided it previously. The Blight at the end of the game is over, and seeing to that end was my Warden's responsibility. Blight ended, duty and responsibility fulfilled.

[circa89]

marshalleck wrote...

circa89 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

circa89 wrote...

What do you mean it's short-sighted? Grey Wardens are supposed to be honorable;

No. Grey Wardens end Blights. At any cost. Period.

If torching a village would give Duncan a shot at an Archdemon, he would do it. He would not savor the death of innocents, but he would do what's necessary.

Because it's soooooo much better to be an **** and garner hate when you just killed the guy that said you were doing exactly that (Loghain for me) I'd rather not tarnish the name Grey Wardens when I just went through all of the trouble of CLEARING IT UP.

That's fine and it's your choice, but don't claim that Grey Wardens exist to be paladins, because they clearly do not. That's why they are called Grey Wardens, not White Wardens, or Black Wardens.

That is why they are called Grey Wardens? I thought they just picked a name for them...

[marshalleck]

circa89 wrote...

That is why they are called Grey Wardens? I thought they just picked a name for them...

They are called Grey Wardens because they exist in a "morally grey" area where lofty ideals have to be tempered with practical reality to achieve an end--stopping Blights.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:24 .

[Felene]

marshalleck wrote...

Felene wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
But Morrigan's ritual creates a loophole which nullifies your little idiom about the captain. That is why I said idealism yields to reality.

When are you going to realize you are the one who live in the idealism of yourself?

"A captain cannot cheat death." It is only a metaphor.
What it really means is a leader cannot forsake his/her duty and responsibility.
PC is a Grey Warden, what do Grey Warden do?
"In war, victory. In peace, vigilance. In death, sacrifice." - Grey Wardens' motto
To end the Blight at all cost. To prevent the Blight at all cost. Include death.
Morrigan's offer is the complete opposite of what a Grey Warden and a leader should do.
And what if PC took Morrigan's offer?
PC live for another 30 years then what? PC is still going to die when the Calling come.
Or maybe the PC still does not accept his/her death at that point and instead, join the darkspawn.
Wow! Congratulation PC, you just become the very monster you try to save the world from.
The ultimate evil path lies before the PC isn't it?
Even worse, darkspawn might not have a choice in what they do, and PC choose it willingly.
Or one can simply say "I am going to end the Blight once for all from the inside!"
Seriously, who are you trying to kid yourself with?

Very simple question: is the Blight ended or not at the end of the game? It either is or it is not. Which is it?

You do note the " In peace, vigilance." and "To prevent the Blight at all cost" right?
The obvious, the most urgent task for PC is to end the current Blight.
But, that does not mean he can totally ignore or doesn't care about preventing any future Blight to happen.
Still, the current Blight is indeed end in the game regardless of PC's choice.

Modifié par Felene, 11 décembre 2009 - 03:23 .

[marshalleck]

Felene wrote...

You do note the "To prevent the Blight at all cost" right?
The obvious, the most urgent task for PC is to end the current Blight.
But, that does not mean he can totally ignore or doesn't care about preventing any future Blight to happen.
But the Blight is indeed end in the game regardless of PC's choice.

I do note "To prevent the Blight at all cost."

I reject the notion that one must blindly rush off to commit suicide or put someone else on that path to achieve the end. I also reject the assumption that free Old God = inevitable Blight.

Future Blights are a risk regardless. There are still dragons imprisoned under the earth for darkspawn to find, unlike the resurrected Old God which presumably with its newfound freedom can fend for itself. Let us not ignore the fact that imprisonment of the creatures themselves is partially a factor in the creation of an Archdemon--they cannot escape the encroaching darkspawn.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:30 .

[Felene]

marshalleck wrote...

..., unlike the resurrected Old God which presumably with its newfound freedom fend for itself. Let us not ignore the fact that imprisonment of the creatures themselves is partially a factor in the creation of an Archdemon.

But the resurrected Old God is indeed a potential Archdemon in the making is it not?

May be not as easily as the imprison ones, but still has the possibility.

What I worry about is its nature and Morrigan's plan with it.

And Mr. Gaider is definitely not going to tell us right now.

Grrah.

[marshalleck]

Felene wrote...

But the resurrected Old God is indeed a potential Archdemon in the making is it not?

There is no evidence to support this claim just like there is no evidence to deny it. There is however little question that their imprisonment creates the circumstances by which the creation of an Archdemon becomes possible. I would argue that for this reason the Old Gods should be freed from their prisons, if possible (which is not really a practical pursuit, since normal people can't hear the Call and darkspawn dig around the earth for hundreds and hundreds of years in search of them)

Hmm, possible DA2 plot thread? Go free the Old Gods before the darkspawn get them? 

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:52 .

[Felene]

Asante81 wrote...

And I still don't see how trying to save two beings instead of killing two beings is selfish... *shrugs*

Doesn't matter that one of them is actually YOU.

One life is never equal to another, nor does it has a price to label.

But to put one's own life above all else is selfish in my opinion.

For you can't say one's own life is greater than any others.

Yet, this thread is all about possibility.

I only hope who make that choice is ready for his/her own consequences and others.

Which is rather light and easy for it is a game.

One can simply reload a previous save if they don't like the outcome.

If only real world works the same way.

Modifié par Felene, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:59 .

[NewYears1978]

What confuses me is that in the ending text..if you saved yourself..it says it won't be the last the main char is heard of and hints of sequels and other tales of your hero..

So that means if you chose to sacrifice yourself....you wouldn't be around for a sequel...

Confusing.

[marshalleck]

Felene wrote...

For you can't say one's own life is greater than any others.

Actually I can. I can say that our Warden's lives and the lives of their companions are worth more than the average commoner because they all possess the heroic traits that make uniting Ferelden agains the Blight possible. Strength of arms, strength of magic, wisdom, determination to succeed and persevere through any hardship. This is a grim reality that few can reconcile, that some people are just stronger, smarter, "better" than others.

Uh-oh. I've just spoken a great blasphemy against modern values that many secretly recognize but few will voice. Flame on. :innocent:

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:17 .

[Volourn]

"If you think that you are not responsible for ending the Blight and saving the people of Fereldan, just because you feel as if you were treated wrongly, I will not hesitate to call you a selfish bast*rd"



I have no problem stopping the bLight. I have no intention of being a GW. btw, I did the ritual and stopped the blight and saved Feralden. What;s your beef. Let's not hold the GW up as some honourable group with high ideals. They have one goal, and that's to stop the blight. They have no morals.



Doing the ritual doesn't stop you from stopping the blight. btw, GW don't die by killing the archdemon by choice, they do it as a side effect of the CURSE. Why shouldn't a moral person want to end/defeat a foul curse?





"But the resurrected Old God is indeed a potential Archdemon in the making is it not?"



And everyd warf, human, elf, and quanari are all potential darkspawn... should we damn them all because of it?



The Old God is not (neccessarily) evil. It's an innocent victim much like the dwarves that branka damned. Are you as evil, selfish, and crazy as Branka is that you would damn an innocent soul.



If I had a way to 'turn' darkspawn back into their true selves, I would do it too. What happens if you meet a single hurlock (a dwarf right), and you had the power to turn him back into his rela self... but, for all you know he could be a goody two shoes or he could be so evil to make Bhelen look like a saint... you simply don't know.. would you take the chance or let him remain a darkspawn even though you could save his soul?



THAT'S my motivation for the ritual. To potentially save an innocent victim. I am a hero multiple times over.



1. Stopped the blight.



2. Spared GW and loved ones from an evil curse.



3. Saved a soul of an innocent being (as far as we know).



LONG LIVE VOLOURN SAVIOUR OF INNOCENT SOULS AND STOPPER UP THE BLIGHT AND UPHOLDER OF THE GREY WARDEN MORALS (as evil as GW *cough* Duncan *cough*)!!!

[Asante81]

Felene wrote...

Asante81 wrote...

And I still don't see how trying to save two beings instead of killing two beings is selfish... *shrugs*

Doesn't matter that one of them is actually YOU.

One life is never equal to another, nor does it has a price to label.

But to put one's own life above all else is selfish in my opinion.

For you can't say one's own life is greater than any others.

Yet, this thread is all about possibility.

I only hope who make that choice is ready for his/her own consequences and others.

Which is rather light and easy for it is a game.

One can simply reload a previous save if they don't like the outcome.

If only real world works the same way.

A page prior I elaborated that a bit
From my character's point of view that is. To sum it short: It was a decision of hope. Hope for the old gods still slumbering in their hibernation-hide-outs, unknowing to the threat of the taint that's digging towards them. Hope for ending blights with less death and destruction of beautiful things that are worth being preserved and hope for all the grey wardens out there.
If it's a failure, then at least everyone knows it is. Trial and error. Important part of evolution.

EDIT: oh... not to forget trust. Decision of trusting a friend. If it's a big mistake to trust Morrigan, then at least my char knows it afterwards

Modifié par Asante81, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It remains an unwise decision. It remain a morally questionable decision.

You are aware of the fact that both concepts you used here are subjective, right?

Nope. Wisdom isn't really subjective. It's based on logic and deduction.

For example, weather you're just trying to end the Blight or bring back an Old God, the fact remains the whole ritual hinges on blind trust (towards a person whose morals and aliegance are questionable).
There are no hard facts that can be used to asses how sucesfull the ritual will be. TI's a jump in the dark with nothing but hope that the ritual itself AND it's aftermath will end up just right.

That said - blind trust is understandable. Humans do that. A few of my character did it. But that doesn't make it wise.


As far as morality goes, Morrigan shows little to no empathy and alturism. So no, letting her rauise a child is a unwise move. Now you cna go clamour how good and bad are subjective, but moral relativism or absolute morality is another discussion completely that does not belong here. Let's just stick with the commonly accepted notion of morality.

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As far as morality goes, Morrigan shows little to no empathy and alturism. So no, letting her rauise a child is a unwise move. Now you cna go clamour how good and bad are subjective, but moral relativism or absolute morality is another discussion completely that does not belong here. Let's just stick with the commonly accepted notion of morality.

"Let's just disregard your arguments completely and agree that I am correct."

Sorry, doesn't work that way.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
You should go around slaughtering women, then.

Eh?
Elaborate plase...

While I agree that it is a selfish act, I can perfectly justify my use of it, the one time I did

Of course you can. Most, if not all of use, took the ritual option with one of our playtroughs. The interesting thing about us humans is that we can find a way to justifiy whatever we want. So that's kinda of a moot point.

 More accurately, he deserved to be imprisoned, and maybe executed by his own father, but since it's an Alienage's word against the son of an Arl, he got what justice he was going to get at the point of my sword.  For this, my "reward" is to be conscripted into the Grey Wardens, another death sentence, only one that gives me about 30 years to live. 

Given that you're ..waht in your 20-30 when the game starts...that would make your char live 50-60 years. That's a nice number.
And let's not forget that if the Darskpawn are not stopped, your character will only live a year or so (before they storm in and drag him underground screming).

Nobody knows what will happen, but it is highly likely that the Warden taint in the child will overcome the darkspawn taint in the Old God's soul, and possibly the taints might cancel eachother out. 

That...makes no sense..How the hell does this work?
If your'e poisoned, drink mroe poision so that it will cacel eachother out? ..mmm...yyyyyeeah

[Asante81]

I guess the "slaughtering women" was a reference to the broodmothers. Meaning killing all women will prevent the birth of new darkspawn.

Does make sense in a way. No humans/dwarves/elves = no darkspawn = no blights... good way to end all of this... *laugh*

[Felene]

marshalleck wrote...

Felene wrote...

For you can't say one's own life is greater than any others.

Actually I can. I can say that our Warden's lives and the lives of their companions are worth more than the average commoner because they all possess the heroic traits that make uniting Ferelden agains the Blight possible. Strength of arms, strength of magic, wisdom, determination to succeed and persevere through any hardship. This is a grim reality that few can reconcile, that some people are just stronger, smarter, "better" than others.
Uh-oh. Flame on.

There is always someone who is better than you or worse than you.

So one is never the best nor the worst.

As for my post about one life is never equal to another, one's life is never greater than any others.

It goes back to possibility and individual's perspective.

Is a great artist better than a great musician?

Is a tyrant better than a corrupt politician?

Not everyone thinks the same, want the same thing, hold the same thing in same value.

Every life is unique.

Sure a commoner might not be able to save Thedas from the Blight.

But he can farm his land, grow harvest and feed others.

The Warden has to eat right?

One can't defeat the Blight with a starving army and a starving stomach for they will all starve to death before one even reach the archdemon least to defeat it.

The ground you stand on might not be very important to you, but the whole earth that is under your feet must be very important to you right?

Back to the topic.

The Dark Ritual is a selfish act indeed.

On a complete unrelated note, I sound like Wynne.

Modifié par Felene, 14 décembre 2009 - 10:18 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Volourn wrote...
LMAO Did you *really* go there? Did you really compare Morrigan to Hitler? HAHAHAHA!

I'l use your own words:
I've been given no reason in game not to believe otherwise.

I believe Morrigan would be the best mother she could be. I've been given no reason in game not to believe otherwise.

Then you're blind. Exactly what motherly traits has she desplayed?
Alturism? Respect for others? Love for children? Patience? I kinda must have bissed those.

Remember, guys, the archdemon is a tainted old god. The old god is not neccessarily more evil than all those poor innocent dwarves that Branka damned. Are you as evil, crazy,and unfeeling as Branka that you would damn an innocent soul to utter destruction when it has as far as you know committed no crime?

That's like killing someone accused of murder/rape before investigating.

Everything so far point that the old god is a dragon. And dragons like to eat crunchy people.

Basing decisions on things you don't know, insted of things you do...yeah, very smart. Remind me to go gambling with you.

[marshalleck]

Felene wrote...

There is always someone who is better than you or worse than you.
So one is never the best nor the worst.
As for the my post about one life is never equal to another, one's life is never greater than any others.
It goes back to possibility and individual's perspective.
Is a great artist better than a great musician?
Is a tyrant better than a corrupt politician?
Not everyone thinks the same, want the same thing, hold the same thing in same value.
Every life is unique.
Sure a commoner might not be able to save Thedas from the Blight.
But he can farm his land, grow harvest and feed others.
The Warden has to eat right?
One can't defeat the Blight with a starving army and a starving stomach for they will all starve to death before one even reach the archdemon least to defeat it.
The ground you stand on might not be very important to you, but the whole earth that is under your feet must be very important to you right?

Back to the topic.
The Dark Ritual is a selfish act indeed.

I never used the term "best." That's straying dangerously close to an ideal of "perfection" which has too often led to one group of humans inflicting great pain and suffering on other groups in our own world. 

And what's wrong with sounding like Wynne? She's very wise. So is Sten, in his own way.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:39 .

[Volourn]

"Everything so far point that the old god is a dragon."



No. Not really. Everything points to the taint twisting their form into dragon shape. This is why if the tainted soul is apssed on to a humanoid that creature's body is tainted and twisted into the form of a dragon.



Thedas dragons are barely above animal intelligent creatures while I seriously doubt the Old Gods are. Plus, this is the Goddess of Love. I seriously doubt she is 'evil incarnate'. That be the first ever Good of Love who was flat out evil.



Everything in the game points out that the ritual is the smart, logical, and good thing to do. You have to be selfish, and evil to say no. This is why even Alistair agrees to do it and hates Morirgan. *shruG*

[Lotion Soronarr]

marshalleck wrote...
Of course. If things go all pear-shaped as a result of his decisions, he is at least still alive to clean up his mess. It's somewhat of a gamble, but it was his gamble to make by virtue of the fact that nobody else in all of Ferelden was capable of marshalling forces to fight against the Archdemon, so his methods are not open to debate (this is my character's in-game position of course, it is open to debate on the forum).

How do you "clean up" such a mess? If another blight happens, thousands will die. You can't bring them back. You're gambling with other peoples lives and you've got no insurance, no capital of your own.

I was referring to the thrust of the post, which is the defeat of the Archdemon.  However, you are correct.  There is also a child bearing the soul of an Old God (maybe) being borne by Morrigan.  It's arguable as to whether that is a positive or a negative thing, but it doesn't change the direct outcome: the Blight is over.

That reamains to be seen. Maybe all you accomplished is a short reprieve. Or maybe you made Blight^2. Time will tell.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:40 .

[Volourn]

"How do you "clean up" such a mess? If another blight happens, thousands will die. You can't bring them back. You're gambling with other peoples lives and you've got no insurance, no capital of your own."



Should lkill everyone before they turn into darkspawn then. The Old God is a victim like any dwarf, human, quanari, or elf.



Why do you damn the innocent? Are you that cruel? Are you so evil, and selfish? Why, why, why?

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Of course. If things go all pear-shaped as a result of his decisions, he is at least still alive to clean up his mess. It's somewhat of a gamble, but it was his gamble to make by virtue of the fact that nobody else in all of Ferelden was capable of marshalling forces to fight against the Archdemon, so his methods are not open to debate (this is my character's in-game position of course, it is open to debate on the forum).

How do you "clean up" such a mess? If another blight happens, thousands will die. You can't bring them back. You're gambling with other peoples lives and you've got no insurance, no capital of your own.

Quite to the contrary, any and all Wardens are gambling with people's lives regardless. Even your Lawful Stupid paladin-Warden.

[Lotion Soronarr]

But Morrigan's ritual creates a loophole which nullifies your little idiom about the captain. That is why I said idealism yields to reality.

Really? What about the child? It's the scarifice in question here. It has something thrust upon it unwillingly, siomething that might destroy it's essence/soul.

Quite to the contrary, any and all Wardens are gambling with people's lives regardless. Even your Lawful Stupid paladin-Warden.

Ok, I simply must know the insanely twisted logic behind this one. Explain away!

Very simple question: is the Blight ended or not at the end of the game? It either is or it is not. Which is it?

The better question is - is it temporary or permanenet? Will we see blight 5.5?
If you cannot that with a definite NO, then you have been gambling with thousands of lives.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:47 .

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ok, I simply must know the insanely twisted logic behind this one. Explain away!

You're uniting Ferelden to war against the Blight. You're sending thousands to their certain doom, and putting many others at risk. You've killed many to achieve your goal. Your hands aren't clean.

Why do you do it? Because you must. That doesn't make you innocent.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:48 .