1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

marshalleck wrote...

That's fine and it's your choice, but don't claim that Grey Wardens exist to be paladins, because they clearly do not. That's why they are called Grey Wardens, not White Wardens, or Black Wardens.

Why do you assume their name has anything to do with morality? Let's not forget that the GW's appraently acted differently in the book, compared to Duncan now. There's nothing wrong with holding any group to higher standards.

[marshalleck]

This is kind of amusing to watch you methodically make your way through the thread, responding to old posts. I'll wait for you to catch up, since I already explained about Grey Wardens and there's no point repeating myself.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Volourn wrote...
No. Not really. Everything points to the taint twisting their form into dragon shape. This is why if the tainted soul is apssed on to a humanoid that creature's body is tainted and twisted into the form of a dragon.

Thedas dragons are barely above animal intelligent creatures while I seriously doubt the Old Gods are. Plus, this is the Goddess of Love. I seriously doubt she is 'evil incarnate'. That be the first ever Good of Love who was flat out evil.

Let's se...Wolf..Blight wolf...Bear..Bearskarn...etc, etc..

Notice how a corrupted creature allways bears strong semblance to it's original form?
It makes sense that an uncorrupted Old God would look like an uncorrupted dragon then, no?

Let's not forget that they are called Old Gods, but what that exactly means is open to wild guessing. They could just be vey powerfull dragons that were worshipped. Giving them names like "the God of Beauty"(not Love) is meaningless. Beauty is in the eye of hte beholder and can be ascribed to many things. Even a dragon can be described as beutifull by someone. Didn't some of those dragon tcultist in haven call the dragon beautifull?
Heck, Zevran describes murder as beutifull at one point IIRC. So i's a moot point. 

Everything in the game points out that the ritual is the smart, logical, and good thing to do. You have to be selfish, and evil to say no. This is why even Alistair agrees to do it and hates Morirgan. *shruG*

Only if in the opposite-land you apprantely live in.
How can you even say that?
You're apprently ready to ingore all facts from the game and replace them with your own fantasies.
Oh, let's not forget you have to have REALLY good coercon skills to talk Alistair into it. And he's still not happy.

[Lotion Soronarr]

marshalleck wrote...

This is kind of amusing to watch you methodically make your way through the thread, responding to old posts. I'll wait for you to catch up, since I already explained about Grey Wardens and there's no point repeating myself.

Show some hard proof that they "grey" in their name refers to morality.
Otherwise admitt you put your foor in your mouth by presenting conjectures as fact.

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

This is kind of amusing to watch you methodically make your way through the thread, responding to old posts. I'll wait for you to catch up, since I already explained about Grey Wardens and there's no point repeating myself.

Show some hard proof that they "grey" in their name refers to morality.
Otherwise admitt you put your foor in your mouth by presenting conjectures as fact.

Your troll-fu is weak, and I'm not really inclined to indulge you. Others managed to engage me in interesting discussion; you on the other hand, well, I'd derive more entertainment from conversing with a doorknob. Carry on.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

This is kind of amusing to watch you methodically make your way through the thread, responding to old posts. I'll wait for you to catch up, since I already explained about Grey Wardens and there's no point repeating myself.

Show some hard proof that they "grey" in their name refers to morality.
Otherwise admitt you put your foor in your mouth by presenting conjectures as fact.

You would be the expert at that in this thread.  Show me, with a link, anything that says a Grey Warden is supposed to just mindlessly kill darkspawn, prior to The Calling.  What do they do when there isn't a Blight?  Having read no books concerning the game, it's an interesting aside to figure out what they do when there's really nothing for them to do.  Some would, undoubtably go to the Deep Roads to fight the darkspawn, most likely out of boredom, but, w/out a Blight running, they are just like every other sellsword out there.  In other words, they have to eat, so do they farm their food?  Rob from the rich and give to the poor?  However, don't fill the thread with more supposition, I've just done enough of that for both of us.  Provide some links to what they do outside of a blight that leads you to believe they have to be Lawful Good Paladin types all the time.  Considering Daveth, and any conscripted PC's, I'd say you'll be working a long time to prove that drinking some blood makes you Lawful Good.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Volourn wrote...
No. Not really. Everything points to the taint twisting their form into dragon shape. This is why if the tainted soul is apssed on to a humanoid that creature's body is tainted and twisted into the form of a dragon.

Thedas dragons are barely above animal intelligent creatures while I seriously doubt the Old Gods are. Plus, this is the Goddess of Love. I seriously doubt she is 'evil incarnate'. That be the first ever Good of Love who was flat out evil.

Let's se...Wolf..Blight wolf...Bear..Bearskarn...etc, etc..

Notice how a corrupted creature allways bears strong semblance to it's original form?
It makes sense that an uncorrupted Old God would look like an uncorrupted dragon then, no?

Look like, yes. Be one, not really, since blight wolves and bears do not reincarnate when slain. Do not simply pick random facts that suit your theory and ignore everything else that doesn't match.

[Lotion Soronarr]

marshalleck wrote...
Your troll-fu is weak, and I'm not really inclined to indulge you. Others managed to engage me in interesting discussion; you on the other hand, well, I'd derive more entertainment from conversing with a doorknob. Carry on.

So in other words you don't have any proof. Thoought so. Carry on.

You would be the expert at that in this thread.  Show me, with a link, anything that says a Grey Warden is supposed to just mindlessly kill darkspawn, prior to The Calling.  What do they do when there isn't a Blight?  Having read no books concerning the game, it's an interesting aside to figure out what they do when there's really nothing for them to do.  Some would, undoubtably go to the Deep Roads to fight the darkspawn, most likely out of boredom, but, w/out a Blight running, they are just like every other sellsword out there.  In other words, they have to eat, so do they farm their food?  Rob from the rich and give to the poor?  However, don't fill the thread with more supposition, I've just done enough of that for both of us.  Provide some links to what they do outside of a blight that leads you to believe they have to be Lawful Good Paladin types all the time.  Considering Daveth, and any conscripted PC's, I'd say you'll be working a long time to prove that drinking some blood makes you Lawful Good.

IIRC, the Grey Wardens do recive some small funding from other organizations and nations.
When there's no blight they keep vigil, by training and keeping their numbers up (with new joinings).
Being a GW when there's no Lbight is probably somewhat boring, I'll give you that.

Also, I never said they behaved like Lawfull Good Paladins. Leave D&D out of this please.

Look like, yes. Be one, not really, since blight wolves and bears do not reincarnate when slain. Do not simply pick random facts that suit your theory and ignore everything else that doesn't match.

Do high dragons reincarnate? We'll never know.

Is the corruption that which enables reincarnation of a archdemon? Again, we'll never know.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 décembre 2009 - 08:29 .

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Your troll-fu is weak, and I'm not really inclined to indulge you. Others managed to engage me in interesting discussion; you on the other hand, well, I'd derive more entertainment from conversing with a doorknob. Carry on.

So in other words you don't have any proof. Thoought so. Carry on.

It's not that, I just don't enjoy beating up children.

[Lotion Soronarr]

marshalleck wrote...
It's not that, I just don't enjoy beating up children.

Beating up someone? With proof? Well ,that's a new concept. Please do try, I can take whatever you dish out.

And FYI - I'm probably far older than you. I'm curious..are you married? Do you have kids?

[Null]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
It's not that, I just don't enjoy beating up children.

And FYI - I'm probably far older than you. I'm curious..are you married? Do you have kids?

DUDE. Is this even relevant to the discussion

[Alex Savchovsky]

Mueller86 wrote...

DUDE. Is this even relevant to the discussion

Of course. Proving moral and mental superiority is important. When you run out of arguments, that is. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
Of course. Proving moral and mental superiority is important. When you run out of arguments, that is. 

You ran out ages ago and are running on fumes.
Unless you can somehow disprove the basic arguments that I presented early on (and are still undesputed) then I suggest you fuill up on gas before continuing.

Now, as long as the thread keeps moving along in the right direction, asking an aside question is hardly a crime, no?

[Layn]

Felene wrote...

PC is a Grey Warden, what do Grey Warden do?

"In war, victory. In peace, vigilance. In death, sacrifice." - Grey Wardens' motto

ok lets see what my warden did.
"in war, victory" - took down an archdemon and stopped the blight. check
"in peace, vigilance" - did the ritual to be able to do this one afterwards. check
"In death, sacrficice" - delayed that death by some 29 years (actually delayed alistairs death so he could go play king) and will go down while blazing through a horde of darkspawn in the deep roads. another check

Felene wrote...
May be not as easily as the imprison ones, but still has the possibility.

as much as any woman walking on the surface has the possibility of becoming a broodmother and thus becoming a factory for producing your enemies army.

Felene wrote...
What I worry about is its nature and Morrigan's plan with it.

thats where the trust thing comes in. Those that befriended her have no reason to believe the worst.

Lotion wrote...
Unless you can somehow disprove the basic arguments that I presented
early on (and are still undesputed) then I suggest you fuill up on gas
before continuing.

all your arguments will stay undisputed as long as you dismiss every counterargument without actually considering it. there is no point to trying to disprove you as long as it stays that way.

Modifié par Crrash, 10 décembre 2009 - 09:10 .

[Arijharn]

Show some hard proof that they "grey" in their name refers to morality.
Otherwise admitt you put your foor in your mouth by presenting conjectures as fact.

Hmm, I'm not sure about hard 'proof' but I think it was implied by Alistair as far back as Lothering that the Grey Wardens would do anything required to stop a Blight. I can't be positive of course, but this seems to me to spell out their potentially ethical slippery slope rationalization.

Could it be possible that Grey was chosen because it's an awesome colour like...silver or something? Of course, but judging by what the Grey Wardens are allegedly able to do this seems unlikely.

As to the OP, my own personal belief is this: My hero was drafted over his dads dead body (or drafted due to the fact that he stood by his friend), essentially black mailed. While he acted in ways he thought was the right way, he wasn't particularly keen on dying either.

Personally, I don't think it's a very selfish thing to want to live, otherwise we're all selfish right now.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You ran out ages ago and are running on fumes.
Unless you can somehow disprove the basic arguments that I presented early on (and are still undesputed) then I suggest you fuill up on gas before continuing.

That's hardly the case.
As I explained already, you tried to make a conclusion based only on objective facts, but that is completely incorrect, because every single decision or judgment you make is eventually based on your subjective beliefs. Thus you're actually making a conclusion based on your own beliefs and claim that they are universally true. You cannot possibly expect that someone agrees with that, can you?

[The Capital Gaultier]

Felene wrote...

And with the possibility of starting a new Blight? Which is sacrificing more life indirectly?

Even if the child never become a archdemon.

Do you know what Morrigan's plan is for the child?

Can you promise all life on Thedas that Morrigan or the child is not going to do something stupid that doom anything and everything on Thedas?

Can you promise you will undo every mistakes you make?

Do not gamble with something larger than yourself on the table.

There's the logic I'm talking about.  The Old God is innocent.  You don't have enough evidence in the game to assume that he or she is guilty, so you have to go with your default beliefs.  Killing an innocent to avert the slight chance at another Blight is bad.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 10 décembre 2009 - 09:25 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Felene wrote...
Do not gamble with something larger than yourself on the table.

It's a bit too late for that at the moment of Morrigan's offer.
You already had to decide what happens with the Circle of Magi, the elves and the werewolves, the next dwarven and ferelden kings. All of those are way bigger than you are.

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
It's not that, I just don't enjoy beating up children.

Beating up someone? With proof? Well ,that's a new concept. Please do try, I can take whatever you dish out.

And FYI - I'm probably far older than you. I'm curious..are you married? Do you have kids?

Your game is obvious. I have dissected your arguments before in this thread, and could again, but you don't consider anything but your own opinion, while slinging veiled insults such as "moronic" and "childish" etc. You're trolling. It's obvious. What's worse, it's not even entertaining trolling where you take an obnoxious position and we debate it for fun. With you it's more like talking to a wall.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out you are far older than me, because you seem to be very closed-minded and hard-headed and set in your ways. "Things are this way because they have always been that way and don't you question it because this is all it will ever be" etc. etc. No imagination or perspective at all, just one extremely narrow view. God, I hope you are old. It would be very very tragic if you turned out to be younger than I am.

I'd debate you, even argue with you if it were worthwhile and entertaining. It's not. Sorry.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 décembre 2009 - 09:50 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...
That's hardly the case.
As I explained already, you tried to make a conclusion based only on objective facts, but that is completely incorrect, because every single decision or judgment you make is eventually based on your subjective beliefs. Thus you're actually making a conclusion based on your own beliefs and claim that they are universally true. You cannot possibly expect that someone agrees with that, can you?

The ritual is based on Blind Trust - FACT
Blind trust is, by definition, not wise. - FACT
Ergo, the ritual is not wise.

Disagre as much as you want. You can just as well disagree that gravity exists while you're at it.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The ritual is based on Blind Trust - FACT

Partially true. Accepting it is based on trust, not necessary blind.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Blind trust is, by definition, not wise. - FACT

False. This is a belief. Actually I do share it, but it's still a belief.

[Lotion Soronarr]

marshalleck wrote...
Your game is obvious. I have dissected your arguments before in this thread, and could again, but you don't consider anything but your own opinion, while slinging veiled insults such as "moronic" and "childish" etc. You're trolling. It's obvious. What's worse, it's not even entertaining trolling where you take an obnoxious position and we debate it for fun. With you it's more like talking to a wall.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out you are far older than me, because you seem to be very closed-minded and hard-headed and set in your ways. "Things are this way because they have always been that way and don't you question it because this is all it will ever be" etc. etc. No imagination or perspective at all, just one extremely narrow view. God, I hope you are old. It would be very very tragic if you turned out to be younger than I am.

I'd debate you, even argue with you if it were worthwhile and entertaining. It's not. Sorry.

And you're calling me a troll? The irony...

"Your troll-fu is weak" is your every second sentance. A mark of a true master of debates. A strong, concisive argument! and let's not forget a horde of Ad Hominem attacks.

Not to self - the purpose of debates is to entertain the other guy, not to alanyze and ascertain things. Interesting, It's a very novel definition of a debates purpose, I'll give you that...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The ritual is based on Blind Trust - FACT

Partially true. Accepting it is based on trust, not necessary blind.

That wouldbe regular trust then.
Blind trust is trusting someone without having ANY objective means to guage the accuracy of what's he's saying.
Which accurately describes Morrigans ritual.

False. This is a belief. Actually I do share it, but it's still a belief.

No. Blind trust is indeed not wise by definition. It simply cannot be anymore than 2+2 can be 5.
Saying otherwise is like saying logic is illogical.
Again, check the definition before you start debating things.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Which accurately describes Morrigans ritual.

Personal opinion.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No. Blind trust is indeed not wise by definition. It simply cannot be anymore than 2+2 can be 5.

Since you brought up mathematics...
See, you can have another definition which says exactly the opposite. And it's about  whether you believe in this over that. As I said, I agree on "blind trust is not wise", but eventually it comes to believing one definition over another.
Every system in mathematics or logic is based on a certain set of axioms, which are taken by belief. Since there's a theorem stating that you can't have a system that can prove it's own axioms. However, in a subjective matters such as morality, you can't really accept one of your axioms as an universal truth.

[Layn]

definition of blind trust:
"n.
A financial arrangement in which a person, such as a high-ranking elected official, avoids possible conflict of interest by relegating his or her financial affairs to a fiduciary who has sole discretion as to their management. The person choosing the trust also gives up the right to information regarding the status of the assets."

wait, i guess thats the wrong blind trust.
anyway.
you think that blind trust is unwise.
i think that life is better if you can trust close friends and specially family blindly. if they give you a reason to not trust them, of course blind trust is unwise, but then again i probably wouldn't consider them friends.

Modifié par Crrash, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:07 .