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[Felene]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

DaySeeker wrote...

It is a selfish choice, as a PC is doing it to save their own life, the rest is rationaliztion. That it is selfish does not make it wrong, what makes it wrong is that it is a choice made without any information; information that Morrigan refuses to provide. Saying that she can be trusted is silly, and she has told you that many times. Saying she hates darkspawn may be true, but it is not because she wants to help, it is because they are a threat to her power. She has joined you with the ritual as her end goal. She also hates all of your party and maybe even you. She has fought for her own selfish ends and never denied it. Any selfless act, any deviation or delay from her end goal she has insulted or degraded you for. Where is this trust coming from? And if she really deserved your trust why not reciprocate it? Why wait to tell you what she knew of the Gray Wardens and the final sacrifice, why pretend she knew nothing about her mother's plans or abilities? Why desert you if you did not do as she wanted on the biggest and most important battle against the darkspawn? Why not let you, a great leader and savior be part of the parenting of this old god? None of this sounds altruistic. She waits until the last moment just after you get the news you are going to die and gives you less then five minutes to decide. She is manipulating you.

hehe. funny, alot of people fail to see this.

all they give you is..

"oh, i trust morrigan!"
"shes a good friend of mine!"

yet she leaves you like an old, wet, soiled underwear.

There's a lot of reasons why she could have left.  Ignoring them and assuming the worst does not make you correct.

And yes, by ignoring most of what she tells you you can rationalize her as being unchanged by her experiences with and untrusting of the Grey Warden.  If you hate her at the beginning, she's never going to seem like a trustworthy person to you.

Ahh yes, and ignoring our reason to distrust her and assuming the best will make you correct.

The problem here is not if she can seem like a trustworthy person to me or anyone.

It is "Is she trustworthy?"

Personally I trust Dog more than her.

Blind trust right?

Back to the topic.

The Dark Ritual is a selfish act for a Grey Warden indeed.

Modifié par Felene, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:28 .

[DariusKalera]

Felene wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

Well, to be honest, the only one of your companions that you can "actually" trust is Dog. All of the rest of them have their own agendas just like Morrigan does and they all disapprove if you do something they do not like, just as Morrigan does.

The only difference between them and Morrigan is that Morrigan gives you a choice at the end to save your life.

Well, I am sure if Dog can become a Grey Warden, able to make that killing blow and sacrifice itself to save the PC, it will do it.

Or, if it is Dog who offer the ritual I can completely trust it won't abuse the power the Old God child brings with.

And Dog will try to kill the Old God child if it becomes tainted or decided killing human is fun.

The only problem in this case is who will sleep with the Dog or is someone going to call the animal abuse.

Call me blind trust.

The point is, you can not trust any of your companions besides Dog and yet, you choose to go after Morrigan because you, what, do not like her character?   You assume alot of things about her character that have no basis given from any information in the game. 

Besides, you're operating under the assumption that the child will have the powers of an Old God, we do not know if it will or not.  We do not know if it will be anything other than 100% human. 

Morrigan will make no worse a mother than say Leliana would.  Or is having a bardic spy with a shoe fetish, and has made up visions and claims they were sent by the Maker be a better choice? 

[The Capital Gaultier]

Felene wrote...

Ahh yes, and ignoring our reason to distrust her and assuming the best will make you correct.

The problem here is not if she can seem like a trustworthy person to me or anyone.

It is "Is she trustworthy?"

Personally I trust Dog more than her.

Blind trust right?

Back to the topic.

The Dark Ritual is a selfish act for a Grey Warden indeed.

Quite to the contrary.  There is no situation in which she betrays you in-game.  I do not believe she is quick to trust anyone, but she's never proven to be a backstabber, either.

Regardless, motivations for undergoing the ritual can have nothing or everything to do with selfishness.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:38 .

[Silensfurtim]

Reasons why Morrigan cannot be trusted.



1. Shes an Apostate Mage. There are reasons why Apostates are hunted by the Circle of Magi, Templars and Chantry.

2. Her mother is Flemeth. An abomination who body-snatches her daughters. And sending Morrigan with you was the plan from the very start.

3. She wants the power of an Old God for herself. She could have just raised the child with you.

4. Shes disapproves at everything you do good.

5. She "loves" you. But instead of living with you happily every after, she decides to go away not wanting to be found.

6. Some your companions don't trust her.

7. Shes rude to most of your companions.



Reasons why Morrigan can be trusted.



1. I just... trust her.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Silensfurtim wrote...

Reasons why Morrigan cannot be trusted.

1. Shes an Apostate Mage. There are reasons why Apostates are hunted by the Circle of Magi, Templars and Chantry.
2. Her mother is Flemeth. An abomination who body-snatches her daughters. And sending Morrigan with you was the plan from the very start.
3. She wants the power of an Old God for herself. She could have just raised the child with you.
4. Shes disapproves at everything you do good.
5. She "loves" you. But instead of living with you happily every after, she decides to go away not wanting to be found.
6. Some your companions don't trust her.
7. Shes rude to most of your companions.

Reasons why Morrigan can be trusted.

1. I just... trust her.

Yes, but that is a subjective list and not a list of facts (aside from facts about opinions).

[Silensfurtim]

Sure. I gave reasons why Morrigan shouldnt be trusted. Now give me reasons why she should be trusted.

[steelfire_dragon]

excuse me if I choose not read all 36+ pages of this.

however, no telling what Morrigan wanted with the old god.

there was no telling whether or not if Flemeth didnt pull one from the beginning either.



is it cowardly to knock morrigan up though and take that way out.

even Alistair said he'd keep that to himself, and if you go that way Loghaine too, just make sure you yourself are not around to be asked about it either.

besides who is to say that the maker himself stepped in and kept your soul at the death of the archdemon safe....



mind you the chantry says all kinds of things, just like every religion in the real world, they all say that so and so said something, and in the end of that its another matter.

but mind you most of my characters choose to stay silent at the funeral at redcliff.

I took both the do her and the kill myself for the greater good just for the ending.



but I have to wondner, what was the greater good anyway...... come to think of it, not sure there was one, the maker certainly isnt, he is the beytrayer you see a statue of in the dalish camps...

[steelfire_dragon]

Silensfurtim wrote...

Sure. I gave reasons why Morrigan shouldnt be trusted. Now give me reasons why she should be trusted.

give us reasons why she should agree with everything you do, Sten doesnt really either, in fact if you bring him along on the ahses quest he disapproves.
all said and done, it all reminds me about the card you get when you take a paladin on witchunters....

Modifié par steelfire_dragon, 11 décembre 2009 - 07:52 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
To use Lotion's constant use of "You know too little" your right, you obviously don't know much about the Wardens seeing as you didn't know about the sacrifice and you don't possibly know how they came about realising how to win the first blight, it had to be either accident or trial and error. If it is the latter, surely the ritual is in the same boat?

If it works, great, if it don't you know not to do it again.

Bringing this into the real world, if all the inventors whom took a risk that could have saved/doomed many people didn't take those risks, I am sure we wouldn't be where we were today, would you not agree?

Sometimes, gambles have to be made.

Ahh..but see, the difference is wiht what you're gambling and how much do you know when you gamble...and the question reamins, if there is another way. Now, when you say inventors it doesn't reallymake a good example. Test personel and volounteers and there's usually more than enough safety mesures and the risk to others is minimal to none.

Charging at the Archdemon is also a gamble - but in essence a more secure one. You NKOW it will work if you reach him.

I am quite sure that if Sophia Dryden had been in this situation, she would have got Alastair or one of the others to do the ritual as she was one of the "Any means necessary" type of Warden, which I would gather there has been and possibly still is a few of.

So? She was a moron. Not exactly a stellar example to follow.

Then explain how hurlocks, genlocks, shriekers, and ogres fit into your logical system? You fail yet again.

Arent they "original" darkspawn? As in - not corrupted regular races, but pure darskapwn birthed by Broodmothers?

Everything in game seems to poitnt hat the ritual is the logical, good, honourable thing to do. Why would I allow a curse to ahrm an innocent creature (the old god) who has done nothing to warrant being tainted than any of the dwarves that branka sacrifices to the darkspawn. I am doing a GOOD thing by trying to find a way to save the soul of an innocent.

An Old God is innocent? Since when? Nothing in-game or in the lore points to that. And let's not forget that i's friggin dangeros. VERY dangerous.
And , in order to save it, you have to sacrifice your child. So you're telling me that that is a good thing? Sacrificing children? Isn't it innocent?
Lastly, it's a a huge gamble with other peoples lives. If it only comes back to bite YOU in the ass - fine, go for it. But it won't. It might bite everyone.

And, it's not blind trust when it's a trusted friend who stuck by you the entire game even when she may have disagreed with some of your decisions. That despite the fact, when you tell her to go she goes without crying.

If you do not know what blind trust means, don' talk about the issue at all. I alrleady told you what blind trust means..BY DEFINITION. If you're so set on arguing this, go open a dictionary on a random word and denounce the definitions written there.

but the thing is, we those who chose to trust morrigan have a different view of morrigan. we see her as a woman we have learned to trust as we fought closely together against unimaginable obstacles, does what she deems necessary for survival , will do everything in her might to ensure the survival of the child, and isn't very unpredictable (the child however is).

Interestingly enough ,that doens't change what blind trust is. It doesn't matter how much you trust someone - it is still blind trust if there's no other source to help confirm or cement that trust. and when ti comes to the ritual, you don't have one.
My elf mage trusted Morrigan totally an took the ritual. It was still a unwise decision.

[sleepy__head]

If someone wants you to do something she wants, but she refuses to explain why she wants that, and at the same time refuses to explain why she doesn't want to explain, that throws up all sorts of red flags to me.



A grey warden has responsibilities to the world, and trying to get such a one to make a decision based on this total ABSENCE of information does not show trust and does not show good faith.



If my grey warden doesn't deserve an answer to a very fair question, Morrigan doesn't deserve me considering her request seriously. And to be willing to gamble on a "I hope she has no evil intention" is irresponsible, and definitely not a good act.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DariusKalera wrote...
Morrigan will make no worse a mother than say Leliana would.  Or is having a bardic spy with a shoe fetish, and has made up visions and claims they were sent by the Maker be a better choice? 

Infinitely.

Morrigan is a damaged person thanks to her horrible upbringing. She's self-centered, power-hungry, manipulative and cares little for tohers of for the greater good. She doesn't care about children.

You want her to raise an abomination of some sorts, alone, in the wilds, far from everyone else...including the father or anyone else who could be a good influence? Congratualtion. You win the bad paranting award!

At least Leliana would raise it with the father, with proper moral values and regard for others..and with some social skills.

Again, no guarantees when ti comes to this - there never are - but the child would have far better chances with Leli.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Felene wrote...

I didn't think it is bad, wrong, or evil.

I think it is selfish.

But it is the intent that makes it selfish or not.
Let me give you an example...
Is it selfish to help an old woman walk the street? Usually no, right?
How about you help an old woman walk the street to win a bet? Same act, entirely different reasoning. 
it's the same with the ritual, you can do it for various reasons, some of them selfish, some of them bad... and some of them neither.

P.S.
Alistair, I disagree. I would rather trust Morrigan to raise my kid than Leliana. Morrigan might have her issues, but at least she doesn't claim she was sent by the Maker.

Modifié par Alex Savchovsky, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:12 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Silensfurtim wrote...

Sure. I gave reasons why Morrigan shouldnt be trusted. Now give me reasons why she should be trusted.

Like I said, the biggest thing is that she never betrays you.  A couple party members can and might.  Other than that, the biggest reason is that she trusts you.  Of course, I'm fairly certain she doesn't trust you if you don't really agree with her or help her out very much, but she can.  There are other reasons, but they weren't very compelling reasons to me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Yes, but that is a subjective list and not a list of facts (aside from facts about opinions).

Not entirely.

Morrigan IS power-houngry, that much she tells you herself.
She not alturistic, that much is also clear.

And she's definately damaged goods. Wasn't there a article written by a psychologist about this? He had quite a few interesting things to say about Morrigan.

*******

I'm gonna repeat this one last time, just so we're clear:
The ritual hangs on a several facts that don't change regardless of how your character feels about Morrigna OR what your character actually wants (End Blight, bring back old god, live, destroy chatry, etc..)

[The Capital Gaultier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Yes, but that is a subjective list and not a list of facts (aside from facts about opinions).

Not entirely.

Morrigan IS power-houngry, that much she tells you herself.
She not alturistic, that much is also clear.

She tells you that she values survival.  Neither her nor Flemeth pursue power past trying to influence the Grey Warden to perform the ritual.

I'm gonna repeat this one last time, just so we're clear:
The ritual hangs on a several facts that don't change regardless of how your character feels about Morrigna OR what your character actually wants (End Blight, bring back old god, live, destroy chatry, etc..)

Which facts?  I'd like to hear them.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Everything in game seems to poitnt hat the ritual is the logical, good, honourable thing to do. Why would I allow a curse to ahrm an innocent creature (the old god) who has done nothing to warrant being tainted than any of the dwarves that branka sacrifices to the darkspawn. I am doing a GOOD thing by trying to find a way to save the soul of an innocent.

An Old God is innocent? Since when? Nothing in-game or in the lore points to that. And let's not forget that i's friggin dangeros. VERY dangerous.

The Old God is not guilty, either.  You don't have enough evidence to show that.  You have to go with a belief here, and I (and my characters) believe that you should never presume guilt.

Also, how is it dangerous?  It had the body of a dragon before, and that is definitely dangerous.  In a child, its knowledge may be dangerous, but that's about it.

And , in order to save it, you have to sacrifice your child. So you're telling me that that is a good thing? Sacrificing children? Isn't it innocent?

That is another debate.  At a few days old, many people would not call it a child.  Others believe it's a child from the moment of conception.

Lastly, it's a a huge gamble with other peoples lives. If it only comes back to bite YOU in the ass - fine, go for it. But it won't. It might bite everyone.

Lots of actions you took in your game could come back to bite everyone in the ass.  If you don't have any faith in the future, why would you want to do any good in the world at all?  You can't fix everything, and the gamble here is very, very small in my opinion.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:20 .

[sleepy__head]

Like I said, the biggest thing is that she never betrays you. 

You are kidding me?  Someone who throws a tantrum and walks out on you when you need her for the fate of Farelden, leaving because she can't have her way isn't a betrayal?  Thats like Sam staggering up the slopes of Mt. Doom, asked Frodo for the ring, and when Frodo said no Sam turned around and walked back down the mountain leaving Frodo to his fate.  If that isn't betrayal I don't know what is lol.

Modifié par sleepy__head, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:24 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

sleepy__head wrote...

Like I said, the biggest thing is that she never betrays you. 

You are kidding me?  Someone who throws a tantrum and walks out on you when you need her for the fate of Farelden, leaving because she can't have her way isn't a betrayal?  Thats like Sam staggering up the slopes of Mt. Doom, asked Frodo for the ring, and when Frodo said no Sam turned around and walked back down the mountain leaving Frodo to his fate.  If that isn't betrayal I don't know what is lol.

That's not a betrayal, though.  Ceasing to follow is a choice.  The fact that they followed you that far is pretty amazing.  A betrayal would be doing something that hindered you from achieving your goal.

*Also, as a point of fact, if you accept the ritual, this does not happen.  So it should not even be used in this context.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:26 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Morrigan IS power-houngry, that much she tells you herself.

I thought you did not trust her? Or you only trust her when it suits you?
Much as she said in the Redcliffe Chantry - it is when you are useful that they don't try to burn you. I call that hypocrisy.

[sleepy__head]

That's not a betrayal, though.  Ceasing to follow is a choice.  The fact that they followed you that far is pretty amazing.  A betrayal would be doing something that hindered you from achieving your goal.

Sam ceasing to following Frodo is BOTH a choice and a Betrayal.  Just because you stated that it is one thing it does not somehow preclude it from being another, because this isn't binary.  Sam ceasing to follow Frodo on the slopes of Mt. Doom two minutes before Frodo was jumped by Gollum would "hinter" Frodo from achieving his goal, wouldn't you say?  So by your own definition, it is betrayal right there.

*Also, as a point of fact, if you accept the ritual, this does not happen.  So it should not even be used in this context.

if you are going to debate this, please be logical.  Your assertion was (and I quote your own words) : "The biggest thing is that Morrigan never betrays you."  I just showed that she does indeed betray.  Just because you chose a path that deftly avoided that scenario it does not follow that the scenario doesn't EXIST.  Its like you trying to insist that there is no pot hole on the road just because you were able to drive around a back street to go to your destination.  Utterly.  Illogical.

Modifié par sleepy__head, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:44 .

[Axterix]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

That's not a betrayal, though.  Ceasing to follow is a choice.  The fact that they followed you that far is pretty amazing.  A betrayal would be doing something that hindered you from achieving your goal.

*Also, as a point of fact, if you accept the ritual, this does not happen.  So it should not even be used in this context.

Personally, I'd consider having a companion attempting to blackmail the party to be a form of betrayal.

But, hey, on the bright side, Loghain didn't betray the King, he merely ceased to follow

[sleepy__head]

But, hey, on the bright side, Loghain didn't betray the King, he merely ceased to follow

lol nice I almost coughed soda on my monitor on that one.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Axterix wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

That's not a betrayal, though.  Ceasing to follow is a choice.  The fact that they followed you that far is pretty amazing.  A betrayal would be doing something that hindered you from achieving your goal.

*Also, as a point of fact, if you accept the ritual, this does not happen.  So it should not even be used in this context.

Personally, I'd consider having a companion attempting to blackmail the party to be a form of betrayal.

But, hey, on the bright side, Loghain didn't betray the King, he merely ceased to follow

Loghain had drafted up a strategy where the king expected him to charge into the darkspawn.  As effective as the metaphor you are searching for is, it does not apply.

[The Capital Gaultier]

sleepy__head wrote...

That's not a betrayal, though.  Ceasing to follow is a choice.  The fact that they followed you that far is pretty amazing.  A betrayal would be doing something that hindered you from achieving your goal.

Sam ceasing to following Frodo is BOTH a choice and a Betrayal.  Just because you stated that it is one thing it does not somehow preclude it from being another, because this isn't binary.  Sam ceasing to follow Frodo on the slopes of Mt. Doom two minutes before Frodo was jumped by Gollum would "hinter" Frodo from achieving his goal, wouldn't you say?  So by your own definition, it is betrayal right there.

Sam specifically promised Frodo to see him through to the end.  Frodo was in a vulnerable situation in the middle of Mordor.  If he had chosen to stop following Frodo at that point, it would indeed be a betrayal.

*Also, as a point of fact, if you accept the ritual, this does not happen.  So it should not even be used in this context.

if you are going to debate this, please be logical.  Your assertion was (and I quote your own words) : "The biggest thing is that Morrigan never betrays you."  I just showed that she does indeed betray.  Just because you chose a path that deftly avoided that scenario it does not follow that the scenario doesn't EXIST.  Its like you trying to insist that there is no pot hole on the road just because you were able to drive around a back street to go to your destination.  Utterly.  Illogical.

I showed that it isn't a betrayal and then pointed out it is irrelevant because if you follow the line of story where you accept the ritual, then it isn't even an event.  Sorry for not making that clear.

[sleepy__head]

I showed that it isn't a betrayal and then pointed out it is irrelevant because if you follow the line of story where you accept the ritual, then it isn't even an event.  Sorry for not making that clear.

Thanks for utterly disregarding what I said in response to that.  Now that I know what sort of discussion this is, I will kindly bow out.  You may have the last word if you wish as talking to a wall isn't all that rewarding for my time.  Whatever assertion you wish to make between our discussions, you can go ahead and assume that you've won.  I'm out.