1807 réponses à ce sujet

[The Capital Gaultier]

sleepy__head wrote...

I showed that it isn't a betrayal and then pointed out it is irrelevant because if you follow the line of story where you accept the ritual, then it isn't even an event.  Sorry for not making that clear.

Thanks for utterly disregarding what I said in response to that.  Now that I know what sort of discussion this is, I will kindly bow out.  You may have the last word if you wish as talking to a wall isn't all that rewarding for my time.  Whatever assertion you wish to make between our discussions, you can go ahead and assume that you've won.  I'm out.

I won't assume that I've won anything since this isn't a contest.  Later.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:07 .

[kevinwastaken]

My character impregnated Morrigan because she asked ever so nicely. And he was horny.

[Alex Savchovsky]

sleepy__head wrote...

if you are going to debate this, please be logical.  Your assertion was (and I quote your own words) : "The biggest thing is that Morrigan never betrays you."  I just showed that she does indeed betray.  Just because you chose a path that deftly avoided that scenario it does not follow that the scenario doesn't EXIST.  Its like you trying to insist that there is no pot hole on the road just because you were able to drive around a back street to go to your destination.  Utterly.  Illogical.

Let's think about it...
For all we know, she wants to preserve the essence of the Old God and has a really strong motivation for that. Declining her offer means that it's essence is going to be destroyed. So what do you expect her to do? Say "oh well, ok... I traveled for years and fought a countless battles on your side because I wanted to save something, but if you prefer to destroy it, go ahead, I don't care"? Is it just me or it sounds  utterly... um... selfish to blame her for not placing a person that have just shown that he doesn't trust her... over her own beliefs?

[xka]

With the ritual, you are changing the sould of the child, with a semigod or god soul. I mean, you are kicking an human soul (worse like killing ), and let a god incarnate in his body.



From a moral view that is horrible in my opinion. But greywardens arent angel, i think they could use blood magic if that would serve to destroy blight.



Resuming: i dont know what would do graywardens.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
She tells you that she values survival.  Neither her nor Flemeth pursue power past trying to influence the Grey Warden to perform the ritual.

"Only power and survival have meaning".. remeber that?

Which facts?  I'd like to hear them.

*sigh*

- Everything about the ritual comes from only one source - Morrigan. There's no way to confirm even one step or point of the whole process, let alone the whole thing. Not even hints that it might work. Nothing. The ONLY thing you have is her word. And she is rather evasive.
- The ritual involves letting Morrigan do some ancient experimental magic on a child
- killing the Archedemon the old-fashioned way has been proven to work
- Old Gods become Archdemons (when corrupted?)

The Old God is not guilty, either.  You don't have enough evidence to show that.  You have to go with a belief here, and I (and my characters) believe that you should never presume guilt.

Also, how is it dangerous?  It had the body of a dragon before, and that is definitely dangerous.  In a child, its knowledge may be dangerous, but that's about it.

In oder to save Ferelden from another Blight? Guilty or not, it's the safest way.
Note that the very fact the Old God calls the darkspawn raises some suspicions. Why are the darkspawn the only one who can hear it? Why do they obey it?

Also, note that mighty demons can mutate/change the body they posses. If Flemeth can shapeshift into a dragon, do you really think an Old God would have trouble doing the same? 

That is another debate.  At a few days old, many people would not call it a child.  Others believe it's a child from the moment of conception.

an abortion debate basicly? I don't want to get into that. Suffice to say, ti's life and you're f***** with it.
Doesn't that baby have the right to be itself? Possesion = bad.

Lots of actions you took in your game could come back to bite everyone in the ass.  If you don't have any faith in the future, why would you want to do any good in the world at all?  You can't fix everything, and the gamble here is very, very small in my opinion.

True. But in all the other cases either you don' have enough information to pick either option as better OR you're not given an option to refuse to choose.
In the case of the ritual, you have a safe and proven option, and a option that requires sacrificing something/someone else with no way of even knowing the chances of sucess or the consequences.

I thought you did not trust her? Or you only trust her when it suits you?

Fair enough. Le'ts not trust a single thing that goes out oher mouth. Doesnt' really change anything regarding the ritual.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 décembre 2009 - 11:05 .

[Allattar1]

xka wrote...

With the ritual, you are changing the sould of the child, with a semigod or god soul. I mean, you are kicking an human soul (worse like killing ), and let a god incarnate in his body.

From a moral view that is horrible in my opinion. But greywardens arent angel, i think they could use blood magic if that would serve to destroy blight.

Resuming: i dont know what would do graywardens.

It is very clearly stated that the child has no soul yet, and the old gods soul does not kill the childs.  If anything it merges.  It is the soul in the Grey Warden when an archdemon dies and tries to possess the warden, that destroys them both.  In the world of DA:O you cant stick two souls in a body, demons, and some spirits are merely hitchhiking

Thus sidestepping the whole debate there.  (Besides in game we know souls are real, in reality there are no such things).

Soul does not imply memories or personality.  The child will be a new being in its own right, just with a slightly more interesting soul, and potentially lots of snacky abilities when it grows up .


The other thing to remember is of course they cannot let Morrigan reveal her true intentions, becuase that would give the game away for the future. 

[The Capital Gaultier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
She tells you that she values survival.  Neither her nor Flemeth pursue power past trying to influence the Grey Warden to perform the ritual.

"Only power and survival have meaning".. remeber that?

No, actually, I did not.  Thank you for the correct quote.

Which facts?  I'd like to hear them.

*sigh*

- Everything about the ritual comes from only one source - Morrigan. There's no way to confirm even one step or point of the whole process, let alone the whole thing. Not even hints that it might work. Nothing. The ONLY thing you have is her word. And she is rather evasive.
- The ritual involves letting Morrigan do some ancient experimental magic on a child
- killing the Archedemon the old-fashioned way has been proven to work
- Old Gods become Archdemons (when corrupted?)

Besides "on a child," those are all agreeable.

The Old God is not guilty, either.  You don't have enough evidence to show that.  You have to go with a belief here, and I (and my characters) believe that you should never presume guilt.

Also, how is it dangerous?  It had the body of a dragon before, and that is definitely dangerous.  In a child, its knowledge may be dangerous, but that's about it.

In oder to save Ferelden from another Blight? Guilty or not, it's the safest way.
Note that the very fact the Old God calls the darkspawn raises some suspicions. Why are the darkspawn the only one who can hear it? Why do they obey it?

Also, note that mighty demons can mutate/change the body they posses. If Flemeth can shapeshift into a dragon, do you really think an Old God would have trouble doing the same?

That depends on if he's a mage.  None of the dragons were mages in-game, but they may have that ability.

That is another debate.  At a few days old, many people would not call it a child.  Others believe it's a child from the moment of conception.

an abortion debate basicly? I don't want to get into that. Suffice to say, ti's life and you're f***** with it.
Doesn't that baby have the right to be itself? Possesion = bad.

I don't disagree, but I think that it's an acceptable compromise to save the life of an Old God (supposing that Morrigan is not lying and the child is merely changed).

Lots of actions you took in your game could come back to bite everyone in the ass.  If you don't have any faith in the future, why would you want to do any good in the world at all?  You can't fix everything, and the gamble here is very, very small in my opinion.

True. But in all the other cases either you don' have enough information to pick either option as better OR you're not given an option to refuse to choose.
In the case of the ritual, you have a safe and proven option, and a option that requires sacrificing something/someone else with no way of even knowing the chances of sucess or the consequences.

Very true.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 11 décembre 2009 - 12:09 .

[xka]

Allattar1 wrote...

It is very clearly stated that the child has no soul yet, and the old gods soul does not kill the childs.  If anything it merges.  It is the soul in the Grey Warden when an archdemon dies and tries to possess the warden, that destroys them both.  In the world of DA:O you cant stick two souls in a body, demons, and some spirits are merely hitchhiking
... 

im not agree. Morrigan wants to make love, she gets pregnant. In this point, we could discuss if there is soul or not in the new life. In my opinion yes, there is a soul.

Then later, when archdemon is defeated, the archdemon goes to another body, usually to a spawn (and we will have again a archdemon), to a greywarden (all 2 dies), orrr to he new container. Container is the key. The soul of archdemon gets a new container, destroying the original soul.

When a mage fails its quest in mage's tower..what happens?..the soul of mage is lost, and demon get a new container, converting into a abomination, its the same thing, but with a non-born child. Im not agree its the same soul that someway merges with the god one, i think one replace the other.

The old good god perhaps doesnt want to kill a child, but remember that when recipient dies (case of archdemon's dead), it hasnt options: he goes to a new recipient without options: darkspawn (reborn), greywarden (die) or the body of a no-born child (surprise).

From this view, i think ethically is horrific...ok from Morrigan view

Modifié par xka, 11 décembre 2009 - 12:23 .

[Layn]

oh god people why do you write so much when im sleeping?

DaySeeker wrote...

Any selfless act, any deviation or delay from her end goal she has insulted or degraded you for.

not really. she mentions what a waste of time it is, you tell her its worth it for this and this reason, she agrees, we move on.no insults or degradation, hardly any disapproval.
heck even goody-two-shoes Alistair was all for purging the mage tower. And he probably only insisted on saving redcliffe which seemed beyond saving (but we proved them wrong!! woo) because his uncle was there.

and now to turn this around with my incredibly awesome rethoric and insight:
isn't it a selfish thing to not do the ritual and damn an innocent (there really isnt any indication otherwise) old god, just because Morrigan hasn't been nice to you and you want to die with the image of being a honorable hero and possibly even be immortalized as a statue?
boy, am i good! (or not )

In my
opinion yes, there is a soul.

and others think otherwise and there is no clear proof in one way or another. there might be a soul after one day (which i don't believe), the soul might "mature" just as the baby does during the pregnancy and as such be malleable and merge with the old god (which morrigan tells us), or the childs soul is already there, it just isn't strong enough to prevail against the old gods soul or at least make it so that both die (which you believe).
as there is no proof, every character has to go with their gut and none of them necessarily do something bad.

Modifié par Crrash, 11 décembre 2009 - 12:31 .

[T0paze]

Soul? I mean, seriously?

We're talking about days here! Maybe a couple of weeks, but certainly not months. It's like, I don't know, a perfect abortion, one that could hardly be called an abortion at all. Only a person who is inherently opposed to any form of abortion regardless of its stage or method, for religious or other reasons, would have a problem with that choice. I know I don't.

Modifié par T0paze, 11 décembre 2009 - 12:30 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Fair enough. Le'ts not trust a single thing that goes out oher mouth. Doesnt' really change anything regarding the ritual.

Wouldn't change anything about your point on the matter, for sure. Heh.

xka wrote...

im not agree. Morrigan wants to make love, she gets pregnant. In this point, we could discuss if there is soul or not in the new life. In my opinion yes, there is a soul. 

And in my opinion this is an absurd. What are contraceptives then, weapons of mass destruction?

[The Capital Gaultier]

Oh, lawd, please don't make this an abortion debate.

[xka]

T0paze wrote...

Soul? I mean, seriously?

We're talking about days here! Maybe a couple of weeks, but certainly not months. It's like, I don't know, a perfect abortion, one that could hardly be called an abortion at all. Only a person who is inherently opposed to any form of abortion regardless of its stage or method, for religious or other reasons, would have a problem with that choice. I know I don't.

From a scientific view, in real life if you doesnt believe in soul, what you're saying its ok, but from the game view, from a fantastic view , every creature has a soul, and game show us how demons get new containers (bodies), how archdemon also do it.. From game's view you are killing a soul to install another.

I will say more;  to me doesnt exist perfect abortion. Although you wouldn't see the blood or the little remains, in game's point of view, doesnt  mean that abortion doesnt exits. Ethically, one life is been sacrificated, so Morrigan has a god in a new container (in game of course)

im Sorry for my english, i know is... *cough*

Modifié par xka, 11 décembre 2009 - 12:41 .

[Allattar1]

xka wrote...

Allattar1 wrote...

It is very clearly stated that the child has no soul yet, and the old gods soul does not kill the childs.  If anything it merges.  It is the soul in the Grey Warden when an archdemon dies and tries to possess the warden, that destroys them both.  In the world of DA:O you cant stick two souls in a body, demons, and some spirits are merely hitchhiking
... 

im not agree. Morrigan wants to make love, she gets pregnant. In this point, we could discuss if there is soul or not in the new life. In my opinion yes, there is a soul.

Then later, when archdemon is defeated, the archdemon goes to another body, usually to a spawn (and we will have again a archdemon), to a greywarden (all 2 dies), orrr to he new container. Container is the key. The soul of archdemon gets a new container, destroying the original soul.

When a mage fails its quest in mage's tower..what happens?..the soul of mage is lost, and demon get a new container, converting into a abomination, its the same thing, but with a non-born child. Im not agree its the same soul that someway merges with the god one, i think one replace the other.

The old good god perhaps doesnt want to kill a child, but remember that when recipient dies (case of archdemon's dead), it hasnt options: he goes to a new recipient without options: darkspawn (reborn), greywarden (die) or the body of a no-born child (surprise).

From this view, i think ethically is horrific...ok from Morrigan view

Well if there is a soul in the child at the point of conception, then the Archdemon and child will both die.
Thats how it works.  The fact that it is implied that child doesnt die, has to mean no soul in there.

Thats the whole point of the grey warden ritual, the Warden is the closest to the archdemon when it dies channels its soul into them, the tainted Warden blood, and the wardens soul destroy the archdemon, and the warden.

The tainted blood in the child and its soul would destroy the archdemon.  You can't have it both ways, a soul in the baby that gets kicked out, but the one in the warden dies with the demon.

The other way of looking at this.
Conception does not take place at the moment of sex, sperm can survive in the womb area for something like 2-3 days.  It is possible for conception to take place any moment along that time.  There is no soul in Egg, nor sperm (debatable by some I guess, but then you have to live with your own body murdering thousands of souls by reabsorbing the old ones, or other messy outcomes .
Now this is all absurd becuase we are discussing fantasy, but you can explain any number of mechanisms that means no soul in child, for instance hold the moment of conception to the moment of death of the archdemon.  The whole system to avoid any soul apart from the archdemon soul.

What we do know is that tainted Warden blood + Soul + Archdemon soul = Warden + Archdemon dead.

[T0paze]

xka wrote...

T0paze wrote...

Soul? I mean, seriously?

We're talking about days here! Maybe a couple of weeks, but certainly not months. It's like, I don't know, a perfect abortion, one that could hardly be called an abortion at all. Only a person who is inherently opposed to any form of abortion regardless of its stage or method, for religious or other reasons, would have a problem with that choice. I know I don't.

From a scientific view, in real life if you doesnt believe in soul, what you're saying its ok, but from the game view, from a fantastic view , every creature has a soul, and game show us how demons get new containers (bodies), how archdemon also do it.. From game's view you are killing a soul to install another.

I will say more;  to me doesnt exist perfect abortion. Although you wouldn't see the blood or the little remains, in game's point of view, doesnt  mean that abortion doesnt exits. Ethically, one life is been sacrificated, so Morrigan has a god in a new container (in game of course)

im Sorry for my english, i know is... *cough*

Well, what you're saying about the game world may be true, but I still don't have any problem with that. Even if there is an abstract soul in one-week-old fetuses in Thedas, one can immediately see a huge difference between that soul and the soul of a fully sentient child or adult. The first is, well, pretty much abstract, so removing it would mean nothing to me. The second is very real, so eliminating it would be a true sacrifice.

Modifié par T0paze, 11 décembre 2009 - 12:52 .

[xka]

Allattar1 wrote...

Well if there is a soul in the child at the point of conception, then the Archdemon and child will both die.
Thats how it works.  The fact that it is implied that child doesnt die, has to mean no soul in there.

Thats the whole point of the grey warden ritual, the Warden is the closest to the archdemon when it dies channels its soul into them, the tainted Warden blood, and the wardens soul destroy the archdemon, and the warden.

I think i cant be agree .  Archdemon only dies if the recipient is a greywarden..in normal conditions. But with the ritual, archdemon doesnt dies, it "depurates" we could say to "original" god..but remains, doesnt dies.

Allattar1 wrote...
The tainted blood in the child and its soul would destroy the archdemon.  You can't have it both ways, a soul in the baby that gets kicked out, but the one in the warden dies with the demon.

Well, this is the ritual's mistery, its makes a second way (or third), but in any other case, we can see 2 souls in 1 body. Archdemon reencarnate if goes to a darkspawn, or dies when the recipient is a greywarden.

Allattar1 wrote...
What we do know is that tainted Warden blood + Soul + Archdemon soul = Warden + Archdemon dead.

We have more:

• A mage fail quest -> Demon gets his body (abomination). Only 1 soul remain
• Archdemon is killed by an ordinary person-> Archdemon goes to a darkspawn (tainted blood) and reencarnate. Only 1 soul remain.
• The fact is Archdemon in normal condition, only is killed when meeting with a greywarden's soul  (also tainted blood) in a the same body. The ritual brokes this conditions, throwing archdemon into a another corpse, yes also with tainted blood, but its supposed in new conditions: doenst reencarnate like archdemon, doesn't dies.

That is why i think, archdemon, when gettint the new corpse, also kills the soul. And that is why i say ethically is only for morringan's eyes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Allattar1 wrote...
It is very clearly stated that the child has no soul yet, and the old gods soul does not kill the childs.  If anything it merges.  It is the soul in the Grey Warden when an archdemon dies and tries to possess the warden, that destroys them both.  In the world of DA:O you cant stick two souls in a body, demons, and some spirits are merely hitchhiking [/quote,]

No. That's what Morrigan tells you. You have no way to confirm it. Or do you think she would tell you that the ritual will harm the child?

Child having no soul is bollocks really.
And as you just said, 2 souls can't inhabit 1 body. We've seen what possesion does trought the game. The only exception is Wynee, but that's because the spirit is merly hitchiking and not even trying to take control.

I mean really. How can you even belive that? "I'm gonan fiddle wiht the childs sould. Dont' worry, it won't be harmed!"

The "It's gonan be a new being" is no argument either. An abomination is a new being too.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Besides "on a child," those are all agreeable.

Youre' arguing semantics here.. child, featus..whatever.

I don't disagree, but I think that it's an acceptable compromise to save the life of an Old God (supposing that Morrigan is not lying and the child is merely changed).

You basicly don't get any more innocent than a child/baby/featus.
It might be perfectly acceptable to you to play with it with strange, questioanble magics.

Frankly, anyone who consider that is downright despicalbe in my eyes.

Crrash wrote...
not really. she mentions what a waste of time it is, you tell her its worth it for this and this reason, she agrees, we move on.no insults or degradation, hardly any disapproval.
heck even goody-two-shoes Alistair was all for purging the mage tower. And he probably only insisted on saving redcliffe which seemed beyond saving (but we proved them wrong!! woo) because his uncle was there.

You sure we're palying the same game? Maybe some trigers are nit fireing properly for you?
In my latest playtrouhg I have high coercion, but Morrigan still disgrees with practicly everything I do.

and others think otherwise and there is no clear proof in one way or another. there might be a soul after one day (which i don't believe), the soul might "mature" just as the baby does during the pregnancy and as such be malleable and merge with the old god (which morrigan tells us), or the childs soul is already there, it just isn't strong enough to prevail against the old gods soul or at least make it so that both die (which you believe).
as there is no proof, every character has to go with their gut and none of them necessarily do something bad.

And thank you for proving my point. You've just admitted your'e gambling in the dark, and a childs soul is (or might be) at stake.
Even if there is no soul yet, you're still robing the child of it's future.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 décembre 2009 - 01:18 .

[xka]

T0paze wrote...
Well, what you're saying about the game world may be true, but I still don't have any problem with that. Even if there is an abstract soul in one-week-old fetuses in Thedas, one can immediately see a huge difference between that soul and the soul of a fully sentient child or adult. The first is, well, pretty much abstract, so removing it would mean nothing to me. The second is very real, so eliminating it would be a true sacrifice.

Ey, you are thinking like Morrigan!
A soul is a soul from ethic view. Power, knowledge, ..from ethic point of view, don't matter in this question. Farway, the fact of replacing an innocent soul, for another thing is ethically...well..you know. Well, we could speack about organ trafficking to compare..but better not to do.

Well, i see from this point of view.

But like a said before, i dont know is this would be evil for the greywardens, im not sure.


EDIT: i think Morringans want it to , after a lot of years, get his body with its powers. I mean, the same Flemmeth wanted to do with Morringan

Modifié par xka, 11 décembre 2009 - 01:20 .

[Allattar1]

The child cant have a soul, becuase if it did, both archdemon and child would die. Thats a fact you have been spouting all along,



If you dont like it, well there is the other fact from this world that conception does not have to take place until up to 3 days after sex.



I mean how can you be so passionate about a game character, your practically telling everyone how to play there game, the outcome they must go through.



See you are also assuming you know everything about how souls work in this game. We dont, we only know that 2 souls cant inhabit one body. Yet from this your walking off and assuming you are the law on when a soul is created/ inhabits a body.



For all you know in the dragonage world souls are only something that get bodies on the moment of birth.



We already know the chantry declare whatever it wants as an abomination, but quite clearly we have seen that abominations are twisted things that demons have attempted to take over. Wynne isn't an abomination in that sense.



I am actually quite apalled at the way you respond to everyone here Lotion and think your verging on being abusive.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Allattar1 wrote...
Well if there is a soul in the child at the point of conception, then the Archdemon and child will both die.
Thats how it works.  The fact that it is implied that child doesnt die, has to mean no soul in there.

Nope. Remeber that a tainted soul and a reguler one might be very different. Remeber that possesion is a strange thing. It can be done by force or trough the target/host surrendering willingly. Willpower is key here.

When Flemeth poseses one of her clidren, her soul isn't destroyed, is it?
So it's not just as simple 1 soul + 1 soul = anihiliation. It's not matter and anti-matter. 
In essence, one has to overpower the other.

Now this is all absurd becuase we are discussing fantasy, but you can explain any number of mechanisms that means no soul in child, for instance hold the moment of conception to the moment of death of the archdemon. 

And you know that how? A soul is really something intangible that isn't governed by physical laws. By what logic can't the soul form the second new life is concieved?

[xka]

Allattar1 wrote...
.....

I mean how can you be so passionate about a game character, your practically telling everyone how to play there game, the outcome they must go through.

......
I am actually quite apalled at the way you respond to everyone here Lotion and think your verging on being abusive.

Im sorry if you are thinking in this way. Im only giving my opinion. We are only speaking, discussing about a ethical question. 

If someone feels ofended, im sorry; but i dont think im being abusive. If someone isnt agree with me, i have no problem,i suggest you could do the same, is the normal option in a civilizated conversation.


EDIT: sorry, i thought was forme and now i see it was for lotion. sorry again, problem of my english

Modifié par xka, 11 décembre 2009 - 01:35 .

[Allattar1]

I know that lotion the same way you are the ultimate law on Souls in dragonage. I dont.

But I do know a few real world facts.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Erasculio wrote...
You are saving the soul of an Old God. If you go with the theme of redemption (which is mentioned quite often in the game), you have just given one of the most powerful beings in the Dragon Age universe a chance of making up for the damage it has done while corrupted by the darkspawn. It's even the Old God of Beauty; do we have any sign in the game of that god (or any of them) being evil?

You mean other that practicly everyone considers them evil? I know, "so the Chantry teaches us", it may not be true.
But it also teaches us they are imprisoned underground. Are they really? Are they "defensless" against the darskpawn or are they controling the darkspawn from day 1?

Hm..how about the fact that they are calling the darkspawn (and ONLY the tainted can hear them..coincidence much?) and the darkspawn listened to them.
I'm not holding my breat awaiting their "goodness"

And just cause it's named the Old God of Beauty, it means nothing. Didn't the cultists name that high dragon Andraste? What does it have in common with her? nuttin'

[Allattar1]

xka wrote...

Allattar1 wrote...
.....

I mean how can you be so passionate about a game character, your practically telling everyone how to play there game, the outcome they must go through.

......
I am actually quite apalled at the way you respond to everyone here Lotion and think your verging on being abusive.

Im sorry if you are thinking in this way. Im only giving my opinion. We are only speaking, discussing about a ethical question. 

If someone feels ofended, im sorry; but i dont think im being abusive. If someone isnt agree with me, i have no problem,i suggest you could do the same, is the normal option in a civilizated conversation.

XKA
I have no problems with your posts.  You make points and present a discussion.
Lotions posts are different, he is practically damning people based on there decisions in a game.  Lotion also does not admit they are only his position but reacts like a hammer to any discussion, hammering his arguments in as if they are rigid law. Thou shalt not think this way, I am right.

Take this quote from Lotion

"
You basicly don't get any more innocent than a child/baby/featus.
It might be perfectly acceptable to you to play with it with strange, questioanble magics.

Frankly, anyone who consider that is downright despicalbe in my eyes."

That is not making a point, he is using emotional engagement to discredit another view.  A logical fallacy, but one where he is trying to enforce a point of view that those who disagree are despicable bad people.

Lotion is being too emotional and is hampering the fun of the discussion in this thread.  Very shortly, depending on the maturity of posters in this forum, threads like this devolve into name calling after posts in the fashion of lotions.

Personally I take great offense that Lotion appears to assume he is the law judge and codex on every matter to do with Dragonage.

If anything he is only the chantry.