1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Layn]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

there is a 1 in 3 chance that the soul of the child exists and dies, however what morrigan says has more weight to me because of trust. so im more confident that that choice is alright.

I'm curious...how did you get those numbers?

didn't i make it clear? there are three things that can happen and we have no clue which one is more likely so, theres an equal chance for every possibility. so thats a 1 in 3 chance that the soul dies. My Character chose however to trust morrigans words and as such felt that it was a lot more likely that the old god soul would really merge with the embryonic soul.
you however have the opinion that the soul dies and as such you think only that option is the most likely and will say i'm wrong no matter what.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That
said, why do people insist on desperatly defending the validity of the
choice some character of theirs took? Like the character has to be
super-smart and super-right all the time? So a character made the
less-optimal choice, so what? Get over it an move on.
Why the need
to defned that choice as the "smart" or "good" one to the end? Maybe
because they feel it insults their inteligence too? Maybe because they
figured too late the choice was not the wisest one, and it messes with
their character concept? But I digress....

you are the person who constantly throw up your point that taking the ritual is neither good nor smart. we only counter-argument that you can't know and from our or a characters point of view it seemed worth the risk. we counterargument your point that the ritual is selfish no matter what.
there are a multitude of reasons why someone might choose the ritual and some really aren't selfish (i wouldn't call it selfless however, since of course you are aware that you will survive and its a nice bonus, unless you want to die), and they can be with good intentions (be it because the character is naive, stupid, trusting or whatever). i wont say it might be smart however since, really the smart thing would be to just have it over with (though even that is debatable. it might be smart to try to keep alistair alive so anora doesn't become queen for example, but then again your opinion on who makes a better ruler is yet again an opinion)

Modifié par Crrash, 11 décembre 2009 - 05:06 .

[Felene]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene, the reasons you put under "naive"... why are they selfish?
Naive or not, it's not selfish if you do not pursuit personal benefit.

Do I have to quote my self?

Felene wrote...

All of the navie reason involve wishful thinking and none of them has ever mention "what if they are wrong" or "If Morrigan can't be trusted..." "If Old God is evil..." "If the child become an archdemon..."

Totally lack any sense of responsibility and consequences, simply believe in the best doesn't mean they are correct.

Yes, thinking with only personal benefit is selfish.

But thinking without any responsibility and consequences makes it not selfish?

And simply following one's own believe regardless of the situation and the lives at stake make them unselfish?

Modifié par Felene, 11 décembre 2009 - 05:25 .

[robertthebard]

Felene wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

But it is the intent that makes it selfish or not.
Let me give you an example...
Is it selfish to help an old woman walk the street? Usually no, right?
How about you help an old woman walk the street to win a bet? Same act, entirely different reasoning. 
it's the same with the ritual, you can do it for various reasons, some of them selfish, some of them bad... and some of them neither.

Hmm, I wonder if you did read my post or not.

People agree the offer so far give has me following reasons:

"navie" - "I trust Morrigan!" "I think Old God is good!" "I hope the child won't be taint!"

"irresponsible" - I don't want to be a Grey Warden from the start! So I can rightfully throw away all responsibility to the trashcan and have someone else suffer the consequences of my action. HAHA too bad for them!"../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png

"selfish" - "I don't want to die!" "It is not my time yet!" "I want to live happily there after with my boy/girl friend!"

You see?

All of the navie reason involve either wishful thinking or personal gain and none of them has ever mention "what if they are wrong" or "If Morrigan can't be trusted..." "If Old God is evil..." "If the child become an archdemon..."

Totally lack any sense of responsibility, simply believe in the best doesn't mean they are correct.

There is a interesting reason that does come up...

fantasypisces wrote...

allowed there to be two Grey Wardens remaining, therefore easier to rebuild the order.

Although it is not the only reason he wrote, and this reason alone cannot convince me, but it is interesting and worth mentioning because it can be look upon as a selfless reason.

As for any reason look upon as a neither, can you list one example?

I'm going to call foul right here.  See bolded part.  Being forced to do something, and choosing to follow your own moral compass regardless isn't irresponsible.  If you were forced into prostitution, and refused to participate, would this mean that you were irresponsible?  Drastic example, but really, the character has found out that not only did they risk their lives by drinking the blood in the first place, that they have cut years off their lives due to the side effects of the taint, and then they find out that they are expected to have a 1 in 3 chance when the decision is thrust upon them of giving up their own life, how is this equal to irresponsible.  The only irresponsible Grey Warden in this game is argueably Alistair, if you let Loghain live.  Despite all the "I'm so proud to be a Grey Warden" crap he spews all throughout the game, he leaves if you spare Loghain, and if you didn't harden him, he leaves Ferelden too.  So find another stance here, irresponsible doesn't cut it, because despite the ritual, the Blight still ends.

[Layn]

Felene wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene, the reasons you put under "naive"... why are they selfish?
Naive or not, it's not selfish if you do not pursuit personal benefit.

Do I have to quote my self?

Felene wrote...

All of the navie reason involve wishful thinking and none of them has ever mention "what if they are wrong" or "If Morrigan can't be trusted..." "If Old God is evil..." "If the child become an archdemon..."

Totally lack any sense of responsibility and consequences, simply believe in the best doesn't mean they are correct.

that still doesn't mean they are selfish, it just means they didn't remember to weigh in those possibilities aka naive and irresponsible, as you said

Modifié par Crrash, 11 décembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[Felene]

Crrash wrote...

Felene wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene, the reasons you put under "naive"... why are they selfish?
Naive or not, it's not selfish if you do not pursuit personal benefit.

Do I have to quote my self?

Felene wrote...

All of the navie reason involve wishful thinking and none of them has ever mention "what if they are wrong" or "If Morrigan can't be trusted..." "If Old God is evil..." "If the child become an archdemon..."

Totally lack any sense of responsibility and consequences, simply believe in the best doesn't mean they are correct.

that still doesn't mean they are selfish, it just means they didn't remember to weigh in those possibilities aka naive and irresponsible, as you said

Yes, thinking with only personal benefit is selfish.

But thinking without any responsibility and consequences makes it not selfish?

They think only of themself, not others.

[Felene]

robertthebard wrote...

I'm going to call foul right here.  See bolded part.  Being forced to do something, and choosing to follow your own moral compass regardless isn't irresponsible.  If you were forced into prostitution, and refused to participate, would this mean that you were irresponsible?  Drastic example, but really, the character has found out that not only did they risk their lives by drinking the blood in the first place, that they have cut years off their lives due to the side effects of the taint, and then they find out that they are expected to have a 1 in 3 chance when the decision is thrust upon them of giving up their own life, how is this equal to irresponsible.  The only irresponsible Grey Warden in this game is argueably Alistair, if you let Loghain live.  Despite all the "I'm so proud to be a Grey Warden" crap he spews all throughout the game, he leaves if you spare Loghain, and if you didn't harden him, he leaves Ferelden too.  So find another stance here, irresponsible doesn't cut it, because despite the ritual, the Blight still ends.

What is the responsibility and consequences a Grey Warden has to take?

And simply following one's own moral compass regardless of the situation and the lives at stake make them unselfish?

Thinking with only considering one's own self is selfish.

Another fish in the water asking what water is. 

[Alex Savchovsky]

Felene wrote...

They think only of themself, not others.

Why is that? It's never said the PC does not take responsibility of his action. Choosing to trust someone does not mean you're stuck in "not knowing what to do" situation should he betray your trust.

[Felene]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene wrote...

They think only of themself, not others.

Why is that? It's never said the PC does not take responsibility of his action. Choosing to trust someone does not mean you're stuck in "not knowing what to do" situation should he betray your trust.

And simply following one's own choice regardless of the situation and the lives at stake make them unselfish?

[Layn]

Felene wrote...

Yes, thinking with only personal benefit is selfish.

But thinking without any responsibility and consequences makes it not selfish?

They think only of themself, not others.

"navie" - "I trust Morrigan!" "I think Old God is good!" "I hope the child won't be taint!"
none of these are personal gain.

but i would count the one in the irresponsible column (something about "i didn't want this, i don't have to die for it") as selfish.

Modifié par Crrash, 11 décembre 2009 - 05:25 .

[robertthebard]

Gasp, not quoting anyone. Here's the kicker for me:



If you volunteered to go through the Joining, with full knowledge that you would have a chance to die during the ritual, which brings me back to this, btw Lotion: "Anything that sacrifices others or harms them to futher your goal is selfish", since the Joining has a good chance of killing all who drink the blood, and harms all that don't die, the very act of being conscripted to the Wardens is selfish. I digress; assuming you know this, that you will live approximately 30 years, barring death by violence, and that you may very well be called upon to die by killing the Archdemon and the whole soul thing, then refusing to do so after all this would be irresponsible.



The fact that all you know is that it's vague, and might be dangerous means that you had no idea what you were really getting yourself into. You can't back out once you know, ask Ser Jory about that, which was, btw Lotion, another selfish act, the ritual starts looking better and better, as a character. Regardless of what your personal moral compass may say, as a character, this option starts looking better and better. You see, this is a Role Playing Game, that's what RPG stands for, and I rarely play as myself in these games, they are, to roughly paraphrase Buffy Summers, "...come as you aren't".



This means that I literally get to check my moral compass at the door, and immerse myself into what ever character I'm playing at the moment. My honor bound, vengance seeking Human Noble will sacrifice himself to stop the Blight, again, does this mean that I'm a hypocrite because my City Elf used the ritual, and one of my playthroughs allowed Loghain to make the sacrifice? You see, in the realm of Save Games, I can swing my moral compass which ever way I want, with the only guiding star being, what would this character do.

[Felene]

Crrash wrote...

Felene wrote...

Yes, thinking with only personal benefit is selfish.

But thinking without any responsibility and consequences makes it not selfish?

They think only of themself, not others.

"navie" - "I trust Morrigan!" "I think Old God is good!" "I hope the child won't be taint!"
none of these are personal gain.

but i would count the one in the irresponsible column (something about "i didn't want this, i don't have to die for it") as selfish.

Yes, thinking with only personal benefit is selfish.

All the navie does appear to be without personal gain.

But simply following one's own choice/believe regardless of the situation and the lives at stake make them unselfish?

[robertthebard]

Felene wrote...

Crrash wrote...

Felene wrote...

Yes, thinking with only personal benefit is selfish.

But thinking without any responsibility and consequences makes it not selfish?

They think only of themself, not others.

"navie" - "I trust Morrigan!" "I think Old God is good!" "I hope the child won't be taint!"
none of these are personal gain.

but i would count the one in the irresponsible column (something about "i didn't want this, i don't have to die for it") as selfish.

Yes, thinking with only personal benefit is selfish.

All the navie does appear to be without personal gain.

But simply following one's own choice/believe regardless of the situation and the lives at stake make them unselfish?

So you change your beliefs at regular intervals, or only when a situation demands that you do so?  I personally hold onto my character's beliefs throughout.  When my Dalish Elf decides to kill that clan of Dalish, it will be because of the Abomination that is Zathrain being the one that keeps their lore, and has tainted them for centuries.  In her eyes, they will be beyond redemption.  Is this wrong, or irresponsible too?  Should my "duty" be to blindly follow the abomination in the form of a Dalish elf that has led that clan for centuries by artificially prolonging his life at the expense of others?  Isn't the whole bitterness of the Dalish brought on by that very concept, with the humans subjugating elves in the first place?  So the Dalish should have the right to do so since somebody else did it to them, taking away their immortality, and turning the bigger bulk of Thedas elves, those known, at any rate, into slaves, or worse?

So yeah, holding onto one's beliefs is bad...

[Felene]

robertthebard wrote...

Felene wrote...

Crrash wrote...

Felene wrote...

Yes, thinking with only personal benefit is selfish.

But thinking without any responsibility and consequences makes it not selfish?

They think only of themself, not others.

"navie" - "I trust Morrigan!" "I think Old God is good!" "I hope the child won't be taint!"
none of these are personal gain.

but i would count the one in the irresponsible column (something about "i didn't want this, i don't have to die for it") as selfish.

Yes, thinking with only personal benefit is selfish.

All the navie does appear to be without personal gain.

But simply following one's own choice/believe regardless of the situation and the lives at stake make them unselfish?

So you change your beliefs at regular intervals, or only when a situation demands that you do so?  I personally hold onto my character's beliefs throughout.  When my Dalish Elf decides to kill that clan of Dalish, it will be because of the Abomination that is Zathrain being the one that keeps their lore, and has tainted them for centuries.  In her eyes, they will be beyond redemption.  Is this wrong, or irresponsible too?  Should my "duty" be to blindly follow the abomination in the form of a Dalish elf that has led that clan for centuries by artificially prolonging his life at the expense of others?  Isn't the whole bitterness of the Dalish brought on by that very concept, with the humans subjugating elves in the first place?  So the Dalish should have the right to do so since somebody else did it to them, taking away their immortality, and turning the bigger bulk of Thedas elves, those known, at any rate, into slaves, or worse?

So yeah, holding onto one's beliefs is bad...

The point of discussion here is "Does taking the dark ritual offer a selfish act as a Grey Warden?"

I think it is a selfish act from the start.

The point of my previous post is to discuss what is selfish since people seems to think only act with personal gain is selfish.

And I point out "simply following one's own choice/believe regardless of the situation and the lives at stake make them unselfish?" same as my previous point "thinking without any responsibility and consequences makes it not selfish?"

I have never change my beliefs at regular intervals.

I have never say selfish is wrong or the act itself is wrong.

Allow me to quote myself again.

Felene wrote...

Half of the people who took the offer doesn't even realize the consequences and the responsibility one has to take if the choice turn out to be a poor one.

All their self-justification excuse for taking that offer are made of self-centric, navie, irresponsible, and downright selfish.

I did not accuse everyone to be selfish.

You can believe in whatever you believe, but that does not mean it is correct or unselfish.

Seems to me, you jump yourself in the half of people who take the offer without realize the meaning and consequences.

And you relate yourself to be wrong while I have never say selfish is wrong.

Felene wrote...

I never say the dark ritual is wrong, what is wrong when someone simply doesn't want to die?

The point of this thread is to discuss if the act itself is selfish or not.

I say it is.

Now, is selfish wrong [or evil, whichever you prefer]?

Modifié par Felene, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:13 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Felene wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene wrote...

They think only of themself, not others.

Why is that? It's never said the PC does not take responsibility of his action. Choosing to trust someone does not mean you're stuck in "not knowing what to do" situation should he betray your trust.

And simply following one's own choice regardless of the situation and the lives at stake make them unselfish?

The thing that makes it selfish or not is the intent, as I already said. And it's not said as well that its "regardless of the situation". The PC have thought about the situation, considered the pros and cons, then accepted. If he did for the greater good, how is that selfish?

[Felene]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene wrote...

They think only of themself, not others.

Why is that? It's never said the PC does not take responsibility of his action. Choosing to trust someone does not mean you're stuck in "not knowing what to do" situation should he betray your trust.

And simply following one's own choice regardless of the situation and the lives at stake make them unselfish?

The thing that makes it selfish or not is the intent, as I already said. And it's not said as well that its "regardless of the situation". The PC have thought about the situation, considered the pros and cons, then accepted. If he did for the greater good, how is that selfish?

And yet you still fail to provide one good example of your point in this situation.

Simply unintentionally act selfish, does not make the act unselfish.

If I unintentionally kill a man, does that mean I did not kill the man?

Or is it your excuse - "I don't know the consequences of this action therefore I am not responsible!"

Modifié par Felene, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:23 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Felene wrote...

Simply unintentionally act selfish, does not make the act unselfish. 

May I have an example, please?

[Felene]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene wrote...

Simply unintentionally act selfish, does not make the act unselfish. 

May I have an example, please?

If I unintentionally kill a man, does that mean I did not kill the man?

[Inconcessus Scientia]

If one is not acting in one's own interest then it is selfless.

Modifié par Inconcessus Scientia, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:26 .

[robertthebard]

What meaning, and what consequence? You mean, that I got to assure that I lived, and that Loghain was properly punished, in my eyes, for his crimes? I knew full well what the consequences would be. As to any in the future consequences, if any, that remains to be seen. Since there were no adverse consequences listed in the epilogue, from this point until sometime in the future, it's safe to assume that there were none. All these "gloom and doom" predictions are just that, predictions, based on nothing but conjecture.



Regardless of all this, however, I still maintained that it was selfish of me to take it in that play through, and I am under no illusions to the contrary. All the other artificial moral dilemmas that have been created in this topic, that have no bearing on what transpired in game, other than projecting what they think will happen based on doing the ritual are meaningless, since the immediate affects of the ritual are covered in the epilogue. Based solely on the facts available, everything else is "I think this will happen, and since I'm right, you have to take my view point, or you're not just being selfish".



It has been called wrong, immoral, unwise, etc etc. So yes, when I respond, I want to cover all of those that I don't think apply. Whether you choose to agree with me or not is really unimportant. I'm sure we have different value systems, and I'm also sure that there are points where we can, and even have, agreed in this topic, such as my admitting I did the ritual for selfish reasons. This doesn't, however, equate me taking the moral low ground, or giving you the moral high ground. I had my reasons for doing what I did, and while they were selfishly motivated, that is all they were.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Felene wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene wrote...

Simply unintentionally act selfish, does not make the act unselfish. 

May I have an example, please?

If I unintentionally kill a man, does that mean I did not kill the man?

I mean, in-game.
What is the "unintentional" selfishness that I commit by accepting Morrigan's offer?

[Felene]

Inconcessus Scientia wrote...

If one is not acting in one's own interest then it is selfless.

Selfish is:

Holding one’s self-interest as the standard for decision making.

Having regard for oneself above others’ well-being.

In this case:

-Holding one’s self-interest as the standard for decision making.

I don't want to be a Grey Warden from the start! So I can rightfully throw away all responsibility to the trashcan and have someone else suffer the consequences of my action. HAHA too bad for them!"../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png

"I don't want to die!" "It is not my time yet!" "I want to live happily there after with my boy/girl friend!"

-Having regard for oneself above others’ well-being.

"I trust Morrigan!" "I think Old God is good!" "I hope the child won't be taint!"

Modifié par Felene, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:36 .

[Felene]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene wrote...

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene wrote...

Simply unintentionally act selfish, does not make the act unselfish. 

May I have an example, please?

If I unintentionally kill a man, does that mean I did not kill the man?

I mean, in-game.
What is the "unintentional" selfishness that I commit by accepting Morrigan's offer?

You save our own life by possibly creating another Blight although it is not your true intent? 

And don't you dare go back to "But we don't know if it is going to happen or not!"

"I put a bomb in the store, but I don't know if it is going to blow up and kill people or not!"

"I don't know the consequences of this action therefore I am not responsible!"

Modifié par Felene, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:46 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Felene wrote...

You save our own life by possibly creating another Blight although it is not your true intent? 

And don't you dare go back to "But we don't know if it is going to happen or not!"

"I put a bomb in the store, I don't know if it is going to blow up and kill people or not!"

Ah, so it's possibly a selfish act.
And I refuse to accept the comparison to a bomb in a store. Installing a nuclear reactor in a plant - more like.

[Be0Wulfe]

A constant theme through all of BioWare's games are redemption - and the cost of redemption for that matter.



With DA:O you've got multiple opportunities to explore that - the Dalish,the Werewolves, the Golems. Heck, even Morrigan who once she realizes Flemeth's plans for her, may, in her own broken way, find a way to redeem herself. Or it pushes her over into Flemeth VII.



Nowhere in DA:O is there ever a clear choice as to how to proceed. A perfect example is in choosing which of the two Dwarfs to back for king. Talk about a choice between the fire and the frying pan!



In DA:O, it's not just about your redemption - there's others on your same stage.



Now to load an older save and figure out how to make myself king. Neither of the candidates deserved the job.



After kingship, a way to break the Warden Curse.



How many times can one fall and be redeemed, I wonder ..

[Inconcessus Scientia]

Let me make this clear. The suffix of -less means "without". So my definition of selfless is without concern for one's own interest. It doesn't not mean putting others' interest above one's own. Just simply that one is not making the decision for their own interest.

Felene wrote...

-Having regard for oneself above others' well-being.

*I trust Morrigan!* *I think Old God is good!* *I hope the child won't be taint!*

I don't see where the person was putting oneself above others' well-being with these.

Modifié par Inconcessus Scientia, 11 décembre 2009 - 07:00 .