1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Felene]

Inconcessus Scientia wrote...

Let me make this clear. The suffix of -less means "without". So my definition of selfless is without concern for one's own interest. It doesn't not mean putting others' interest above one's own. Just simply that one is not making the decision for their own interest.

Felene wrote...

-Having regard for oneself above others' well-being.

*I trust Morrigan!* *I think Old God is good!* *I hope the the child won't be taint!*

I don't see where the person was putting oneself above others' well-being with these.

The person believe him/herself to be correct regardless if he/she is wrong others will suffer? <_<

Modifié par Felene, 11 décembre 2009 - 07:01 .

[Felene]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Felene wrote...

You save our own life by possibly creating another Blight although it is not your true intent? 

And don't you dare go back to "But we don't know if it is going to happen or not!"

"I put a bomb in the store, I don't know if it is going to blow up and kill people or not!"

Ah, so it's possibly a selfish act.
And I refuse to accept the comparison to a bomb in a store. Installing a nuclear reactor in a plant - more like.

At least you admit the possibility, which is a start.

Modifié par Felene, 11 décembre 2009 - 07:02 .

[Allattar1]

Lets put a few things straight here as well.

1) Conception does not occur instantly with sex, it can occur up to three days later. (Im reasonably sure on that number but any doctors out there can correct me). So extending conception out to Archdemon death is perfectly valid.



2) Noone here knows when (in the game world) Souls are formed, even if they are formed, or if souls are drawn to a vessel. It might be at conception it might be at birth, who knows. Hell we dont even know if human souls are different to dwarven, or elven or qunari. All souls may already exist and are randomly chosen to inhabit a vessel at the right time. So all that happens is Morrigan is bypassing the lottery.



3) The whole dark ritual being a danger depends on how much your character trusts Morrigan.

The whole argument of it might start another blight is, well based on how competent/incompetent you think Morrigan is, and how much you think she would risk a blight over say personal power gain. If you think you trust someone it isnt as much of a risk over not trusting them.

There are people I would trust with my money, and freinds I wouldnt.



4) We do not know if Morrigan is out for personal power or something else. We do know that Morrigan refers to her duty...



5) Morrigan can only be true to your trust or betray it.

In one sense people (artificial npcs) will suffer, in the other, they wont.



6) This argument will only be settled in a future expansion, DA 2 or a book.

[Inconcessus Scientia]

Felene wrote...

Inconcessus Scientia wrote...

Let me make this clear. The suffix of -less means "without". So my definition of selfless is without concern for one's own interest. It doesn't not mean putting others' interest above one's own. Just simply that one is not making the decision for their own interest.

Felene wrote...

-Having regard for oneself above others' well-being.

*I trust Morrigan!* *I think Old God is good!* *I hope the the child won't be taint!*

I don't see where the person was putting oneself above others' well-being with these.

The person believe him/herself to be correct regardless if he/she is wrong others will suffer? <_<

Who are these others?

Not to mention I don't agree with your response. Selfishness is acting for one's own interest. If one is self-serving and it is against someone else interest then that too is selfish. But just simply acting against someone else interest is not selfish.

Modifié par Inconcessus Scientia, 11 décembre 2009 - 07:36 .

[robertthebard]

Inconcessus Scientia wrote...

Let me make this clear. The suffix of -less means "without". So my definition of selfless is without concern for one's own interest. It doesn't not mean putting others' interest above one's own. Just simply that one is not making the decision for their own interest.

Felene wrote...

-Having regard for oneself above others' well-being.

*I trust Morrigan!* *I think Old God is good!* *I hope the child won't be taint!*

I don't see where the person was putting oneself above others' well-being with these.

You won't find correlation, because there isn't any to be found.  It's just like the presumption that saving an Old God's soul will automatically start a new blight.  This of course ignores the fact that there are two Old God's known to be left, according to in game lore, and yet, killing the Archdemon ends this current Blight whether you do the ritual or no.  So surviving Old God does not equal blight, despite the claims to the contrary here.  Which brings me to another curious point, how many Blights did the Tevinter Imperium have prior to the corruption of the Maker's home?  All the Old Gods were alive and well for a long time prior to this.

Don't bother answering that, I will, there were none.  Why?  Because there was no darkspawn to corrupt the Old Gods.  Historical fact, it had been 400 years between Blights.  Why weren't the Blights constant, if all that is required is the existance of an Old God?  This is the most popular opinion circulating, after all.  Why was there only one Archdemon at Denerim, and not 3?  For that matter, why has every Blight ever only had one?  What rituals are required to create the Archdemon in the first place?  Does any one here really think Morrigan is just going to let the darkspawn corrupt the baby, especially if, as has been surmised, she plans to replace Flemeth...

[Felene]

Inconcessus Scientia wrote...

Felene wrote...

Inconcessus Scientia wrote...

Let me make this clear. The suffix of -less means "without". So my definition of selfless is without concern for one's own interest. It doesn't not mean putting others' interest above one's own. Just simply that one is not making the decision for their own interest.

Felene wrote...

-Having regard for oneself above others' well-being.

*I trust Morrigan!* *I think Old God is good!* *I hope the the child won't be taint!*

I don't see where the person was putting oneself above others' well-being with these.

The person believe him/herself to be correct regardless if he/she is wrong others will suffer? <_<

Who are these others?

Not to mention I don't agree with your response. Selfishness is acting for one's own interest. If one is self-serving and it is against someone else interest then that too is selfish. But just simply acting against someone else interest is not selfish thats just being mean.

Life on Thedas?

Selfishness is acting with only considering one's own self regardless of others.

Yes, simply acting against someone else interest is not selfish thats just being mean.

But in this case the Grey Warden does have a benefit which is saving his/her own life, right?

robertthebard wrote...

You won't find correlation, because there isn't any to be found.  It's just like the presumption that saving an Old God's soul will automatically start a new blight.

Not automatically, possibly.

Modifié par Felene, 11 décembre 2009 - 07:40 .

[robertthebard]

As I said in that snipped post, there are two other Old Gods known to be in existance at the time you slay the Archdemon, and yet, mysteriously, whether you do the ritual or not, the Blight ends. The death of the Archdemon also stopped the last Blight, and with 3 Old Gods to choose from it still took 400 years. I'd say that even saying possibly is a stretch. Unless they had a hard time picking which one to corrupt next?

[Varyen]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Varyen wrote...

I have a theory on the dark ritual and if my theory is true then it's a bad thing. Morrigan said that flemeth(excuss my spelling) might one day come after her. What if she did come after Morrigan and there wasn't a cut scene to show it and flemeth is the one who tells you of the ritaul? If you go along with it, you just helped produce another host for her spirit It's also possible that Morrigan also figured out how to become immortal & this old god child is the ultimate host regradless if it's Morrigan or Flemeth

Flemeth is very, very old.  It's doubtful that she would be fertile at this point in her life.

Personally, I agree to an extent.  However, I think that Morrigan leaves to avoid Flemeth and raise the child howsoever she sees fit.

you do relize that flemeth's body died a few hundred years ago right? That body is nothing more then a host for her & the demon's spirit.

[robertthebard]

Varyen wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Varyen wrote...

I have a theory on the dark ritual and if my theory is true then it's a bad thing. Morrigan said that flemeth(excuss my spelling) might one day come after her. What if she did come after Morrigan and there wasn't a cut scene to show it and flemeth is the one who tells you of the ritaul? If you go along with it, you just helped produce another host for her spirit It's also possible that Morrigan also figured out how to become immortal & this old god child is the ultimate host regradless if it's Morrigan or Flemeth

Flemeth is very, very old.  It's doubtful that she would be fertile at this point in her life.

Personally, I agree to an extent.  However, I think that Morrigan leaves to avoid Flemeth and raise the child howsoever she sees fit.

you do relize that flemeth's body died a few hundred years ago right? That body is nothing more then a host for her & the demon's spirit.

Actually, the fact that she went to the Frostback Mountains to hide, instead of back to Flemeth's hut, which would be familiar, says a lot too.  It will make her harder to find, and if you romanced her, and got the ring, that's not to say impossible, just harder.  However, it does make sense that it would take Flemeth a long time, if, as Morrigan surmises, she cannot truly be killed.

[XOGHunter246]

morrigan could be flemeth for all we know

[Varyen]

robertthebard wrote...

Varyen wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Varyen wrote...

I have a theory on the dark ritual and if my theory is true then it's a bad thing. Morrigan said that flemeth(excuss my spelling) might one day come after her. What if she did come after Morrigan and there wasn't a cut scene to show it and flemeth is the one who tells you of the ritaul? If you go along with it, you just helped produce another host for her spirit It's also possible that Morrigan also figured out how to become immortal & this old god child is the ultimate host regradless if it's Morrigan or Flemeth

Flemeth is very, very old.  It's doubtful that she would be fertile at this point in her life.

Personally, I agree to an extent.  However, I think that Morrigan leaves to avoid Flemeth and raise the child howsoever she sees fit.

you do relize that flemeth's body died a few hundred years ago right? That body is nothing more then a host for her & the demon's spirit.

Actually, the fact that she went to the Frostback Mountains to hide, instead of back to Flemeth's hut, which would be familiar, says a lot too.  It will make her harder to find, and if you romanced her, and got the ring, that's not to say impossible, just harder.  However, it does make sense that it would take Flemeth a long time, if, as Morrigan surmises, she cannot truly be killed.

which is why I think it'd be possible for flemeth to take control of Morrigan's body as Morrigan said she might come & do at a later point.
Regradless if ppl think the ritaul is good, bad selfish or selfless the creaters of this game will most likely keep Morrigan & maybe flemeth around & will most likely involve her god child in some form or another since morrigan plays a huge part in this game regradless if you use her or not. It's the perfect way to continue the story line.
As for my feelings on the ritual...GWs are here to kill darkspawn & the archdemons. Why kill a GW if it can be avoided when you have a way to live & fight longer? yes it might be a bad idea & invite more blights but it's one more warden to help in these dark times of fear of the darkspawn.

[Felene]

robertthebard wrote...

As I said in that snipped post, there are two other Old Gods known to be in existance at the time you slay the Archdemon, and yet, mysteriously, whether you do the ritual or not, the Blight ends. The death of the Archdemon also stopped the last Blight, and with 3 Old Gods to choose from it still took 400 years. I'd say that even saying possibly is a stretch. Unless they had a hard time picking which one to corrupt next?

A Blight is ended if a Grey Warden kills the archdemon behind it.

Choose to accept the ritual is one of the three possible outcome after the current Blight is ended.

An archdemon is only made if a darkspawn tainted a Old God.

Is all previous Blight, the Old God that was tainted was imprison deep underground.

Only when a darkspawn successfully find the Old God, taint it, an archdemon is made.

So it takes roughly about four centries for the darkspawn to dig through all the earth between them and a imprison Old God.

By lore there is only seven imprisoned Old God through out Thedas, and four of them has been slain in the previous four Blight.

The fifth Blight is ended at the end of the game.

But if the character choose to take the ritual, the eighth Old God is created.

Thus, created a possibility for another Blight.

Back to the topic.

The Dark Ritual is a selfish act for a Grey Warden indeed.

Modifié par Felene, 11 décembre 2009 - 11:54 .

[robertthebard]

Felene wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

As I said in that snipped post, there are two other Old Gods known to be in existance at the time you slay the Archdemon, and yet, mysteriously, whether you do the ritual or not, the Blight ends. The death of the Archdemon also stopped the last Blight, and with 3 Old Gods to choose from it still took 400 years. I'd say that even saying possibly is a stretch. Unless they had a hard time picking which one to corrupt next?

Choose to accept the ritual is one of the three possible outcome after the current Blight is ended.  Three options?

An archdemon is only made if a darkspawn tainted a Old God.  Fact.

Is all previous Blight, the Old God that was tainted was imprison deep underground.  Fact.

Only when a darkspawn successfully find the Old God, taint it, an archdemon is made.  Fact.

So it takes roughly about four centries for the darkspawn to dig through all the earth between them and a imprison Old God.  Assumption, but conceivable.

By lore there is only seven imprisoned Old God through out Thedas, and four of them has been slain in the previous four Blight.  Fact.

The fifth Blight is ended in the end of the game.  Fact.

But if the character choose to take the ritual, the eighth Old God is created.  False.  The fifth Old God is saved.

Thus, created a possibility for another Blight.  Again, assumption, presuming they can find it.  Considering they will be looking underground, and Morrigan was last seen in the Frostback Mountains, it's a stretch.

Back to the topic.

The Dark Ritual is a selfish act for a Grey Warden indeed.

As has been shown, whether it's selfish or not depends on the motivations of the character that chose it.  For myself, it was selfish.  However, that doesn't mean that I am qualified to say that it applies to everyone else.  Side note, while Morrigan is fleeing with the child, the darkspawn are in disarray in Denerim.  Their Archdemon has been defeated, and they are running for their lives.  The odds of them noticing Morrigan escaping, since she's a shapeshifter, are slim to none.  Especially since NPC's seem to have more powers out of party than they had when they are in the party.  For example, Wynne uses Winter's Grasp to kill the demon in the cutscene at the barrier in the Mage Tower, but she doesn't know the spell when you get her in party.

Also, you are a Grey Warden, not the Maker, you cannot create an Old God.

[Varyen]

robertthebard wrote...

Also, you are a Grey Warden, not the Maker, you cannot create an Old God.

How do we know the Maker created the old gods to begin with (if it's said in a codex then I apologize as i have not found this codex yet) ? It would not be the 1st time that  a game has had "old Gods" in it without some high & mighty creater(s) of all things creating something/one that turned aginst him/her. As well how do we know that the spirit of an old god can't be brought back from the dead? This is a fantasy game & in fantasy games, ANYTHING is possible even bringing back a god if the player &/or NPC(s) has that sort of power be it alone or in a group of powerful beings.

[steelfire_dragon]

XOGHunter246 wrote...

morrigan could be flemeth for all we know

funny how a few weeks ago, I was asking my brothers about this ...

[robertthebard]

Varyen wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Also, you are a Grey Warden, not the Maker, you cannot create an Old God.

How do we know the Maker created the old gods to begin with (if it's said in a codex then I apologize as i have not found this codex yet) ? It would not be the 1st time that  a game has had "old Gods" in it without some high & mighty creater(s) of all things creating something/one that turned aginst him/her. As well how do we know that the spirit of an old god can't be brought back from the dead? This is a fantasy game & in fantasy games, ANYTHING is possible even bringing back a god if the player &/or NPC(s) has that sort of power be it alone or in a group of powerful beings.

That statement means a whole lot of different things when taken out of context with the original post.  The post was a reply to a post that stated that by doing the ritual we created an 8th Old God.  As for whether the Maker made Old Gods or not, it's not in game.  If one believes the Chantry, then there is only one God, and so, he must have made them.  If one doesn't believe the Chantry, then one is in the Chicken and the egg paradox.  However, in context of the game, the Tevinter Imperium worshipped dragons.  Since they are really the oldest civilization we know of barring Elves and Dwarves I'd suppose that the Old Gods are actually dragons.  What this means about teaching the Imperium magic, however, is up in the air.  Did they teach them, or did the Imperium experiment on them to learn new magic.  The world will never truly know.

[Basher of Glory]

Allattar1 wrote...

6) This argument will only be settled in a future expansion, DA 2 or a book.

I really DO hope, that there will be some insight in future DLCs and / or expansions.

I'm still somewhat annoyed about NWN 2 in regard of detaining the most of the backgrounds of
the sorceror girl Qara.
Sand considered her a "greater threat than the KoS" (when he deserts from the PC during the endfight), we never knew about her history, etc.
IMO this was not fair to end a story with so many question marks.

So I hope, that we will learn more about our protagonists in future

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 11 décembre 2009 - 10:45 .

[Varyen]

robertthebard wrote...

 the Tevinter Imperium worshipped dragons.  Since they are really the oldest civilization we know of barring Elves and Dwarves I'd suppose that the Old Gods are actually dragons.  What this means about teaching the Imperium magic, however, is up in the air.  Did they teach them, or did the Imperium experiment on them to learn new magic.  The world will never truly know.

If we're taking that approch then I'm leaning on that the Tevinter Imperium were either the 1st of the dragon cults or simply the longest lived & strongest of the dragon cults if that's the case.  And based on the cultist from that scared urn quest line that may very well be true.

[Felene]

robertthebard wrote...

Choose to accept the ritual is one of the three possible outcome after the current Blight is ended.  Three options?

A Blight is ended when a Grey Warden kills the archdemon behind it. No other options.

Three outcome, PC Grey Warden die, other Grey Warden die, PC did not die because of the ritual.

But if the character choose to take the ritual, the eighth Old God is created.  False.  The fifth Old God is saved.

If the character choose to take the ritual, a Old God is reborn.

Thus, created a possibility for another Blight.  Again, assumption, presuming they can find it.  Considering they will be looking underground, and Morrigan was last seen in the Frostback Mountains, it's a stretch.

Do note the "possibility."

Darkspawn was driven underground because that is where the imprison archdemon is.

They can sense the Old Gods calling, so if they do sense the childs calling, they will and are able to rise to the surface.

As has been shown, whether it's selfish or not depends on the motivations of the character that chose it.  For myself, it was selfish.  However, that doesn't mean that I am qualified to say that it applies to everyone else....snip

Felene wrote...

Half of the people who took the offer doesn't even realize the consequences and the responsibility one has to take if the choice turn out to be a poor one.

All their self-justification excuse for taking that offer are made of self-centric, navie, irresponsible, and downright selfish.

Also, you are a Grey Warden, not the Maker, you cannot create an Old God.

No, but as a specie, PC/other Grey Warden did create a baby which was a Old God reborn by PC's own choice.

Modifié par Felene, 14 décembre 2009 - 10:48 .

[robertthebard]

Varyen wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

 the Tevinter Imperium worshipped dragons.  Since they are really the oldest civilization we know of barring Elves and Dwarves I'd suppose that the Old Gods are actually dragons.  What this means about teaching the Imperium magic, however, is up in the air.  Did they teach them, or did the Imperium experiment on them to learn new magic.  The world will never truly know.

If we're taking that approch then I'm leaning on that the Tevinter Imperium were either the 1st of the dragon cults or simply the longest lived & strongest of the dragon cults if that's the case.  And based on the cultist from that scared urn quest line that may very well be true.

There can be no doubt that the Imperium worshipped dragons, it's on one of the loading screens for sure.  In Codex entries, I believe, it is laid out that the Maker imprisoned these Old Gods (dragons?) below ground.  I find the parallels compelling, if not absolute proof.  Whether the High Dragon communicated to the Cultists that she was Andraste reborn or not is never answered, as the dragon never attempts to speak to the PC when you summon it with the horn.  It could be that they were just as the Guardian said, stone cold crazy...

[The Capital Gaultier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What I AM doing is analayzing the choices for what they are. Each of my characters have their own reasons for making a choice. That doesn't change the reality of the choice itself.
Some of my characters might be too brash, too self-absorbed or full of spite, so they take the ritual. Not all the characters have to the wise and noble.

There is nothing inherently noble about declining the ritual and nothing inherently ignoble about accepting it, though.  That is the point.

[robertthebard]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What I AM doing is analayzing the choices for what they are. Each of my characters have their own reasons for making a choice. That doesn't change the reality of the choice itself.
Some of my characters might be too brash, too self-absorbed or full of spite, so they take the ritual. Not all the characters have to the wise and noble.

There is nothing inherently noble about declining the ritual and nothing inherently ignoble about accepting it, though.  That is the point.

What he meant to say, is that what he's doing is analyzing them for how he has assessed them, and anyone that disagrees is worthy of his ire.  The "reality of the choice itself" is that each player will view it differently, and may even view it differently on subsequent play throughs.  I know I have.  The reality of the choice is that it's not reality.  Evidently, this has slipped through the cracks for some people.  It has been compared to abortion, of all things.  So yeah, serious conversation here is wasted.  We have entrenched ne'er do wells, such as myself that saw what I did as a City Elf as selfish, but better than the possible alternatives, and the ne'er do wrongs, that even if they took the ritual path, they can perfectly justify it by saying that they are superior to us, as they had information that led them to make a more informed decision, or some such nonsense...

Edit:  Note that I made my signature specifically due to this topic.

Modifié par robertthebard, 12 décembre 2009 - 12:46 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

robertthebard wrote...

What he meant to say, is that what he's doing is analyzing them for how he has assessed them, and anyone that disagrees is worthy of his ire.  The "reality of the choice itself" is that each player will view it differently, and may even view it differently on subsequent play throughs.  I know I have.  The reality of the choice is that it's not reality.  Evidently, this has slipped through the cracks for some people.  It has been compared to abortion, of all things.  So yeah, serious conversation here is wasted.  We have entrenched ne'er do wells, such as myself that saw what I did as a City Elf as selfish, but better than the possible alternatives, and the ne'er do wrongs, that even if they took the ritual path, they can perfectly justify it by saying that they are superior to us, as they had information that led them to make a more informed decision, or some such nonsense...

Edit:  Note that I made my signature specifically due to this topic.

It's pretty amazing what DA:O can do to a person. 

[Jayross]

It really comes down to the motivations of Morrigan.



We have very little idea about what she plans to do with this baby, and why, for instance, couldn't I have done the dark ritual with Leliana? I don't think Morrigan did anything special, so couldn't I have the same results with Leliana?



Morrigan clearly wants the child for some reason, I killed Flemeth, but that doesn't mean Flemeth is gone. What if Flemeth goes into the Old God? That would be terrible.



I hope DA2 explains this more. I want to start DA2 looking around the world of Morrigan, and looking for clues, then it can go into the main story.

[GammaRayJim]

Morrigan wants the child because a)Flemmeth took over her body after she was killed and is now going to raise her next host with old god powers or she Morrigan now having learned how Flemmeth did this through the Black Grimoire and is now going to raise her own host.