1807 réponses à ce sujet

[T0paze]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Crrash wrote...

i'd like to add another fact: by killing the archdemon the full darkspawn might moves back to the deep roads. Due to your actions the Dwarves get a harder time.

I do feel really bad for the dwarves.  Humans outnumber them 100 to 1 (according to Oghren, I think) but as soon as a "Blight" is over, humans and elves consider the darkspawn gone.  Those hole-dwellers really need to learn diplomacy from the Grey Wardens, I think.

They shouldn't.

Only an idiot would keep priceless diplomatic treaties not in some almost inaccessible castle but somewhere in the middle of the Korcari Wilds, without no guards at all and for anyone to steal (just like it happened).

[Felene]

There is only two possible scenario for the statement "The Dark Ritual is not a selfish act as a Grey Warden" can be true in my opinion.

1. The Grey Warden is not a direct beneficiary in this decision.

2. The Grey Warden knew the Old God child will never become an archdemon [or harm the future of Thedas in anyway] when he/she made that decision.

So yeah, it is impossible for the statement "The Dark Ritual is not a selfish act as a Grey Warden" can be true in my opinion.

As for those who say the "intention" is what decided the statement can be true for false in this case.

Just because one's intention is good doesn't mean he/she is not selfish.

No matter what PC's reasons are, PC will consider this decision only because he/she can cheat death.

Just think about it, if PC will die no matter he/she agrees with the ritual or not, will the PC still agrees with it?:innocent:

Modifié par Felene, 14 décembre 2009 - 07:02 .

[Talisander]

    The Chantry says the Maker created man and magic, and yet the Tevinter Imperium, the greatest nation of mages in the world's memory, worshipped other Gods. The dwarves, an older race than man, care nothing for the Maker. The elves, an older race than even the dwarves, have their own Gods and have no room for the Maker in their creation myth. The Qunari Qun says nothing of the Maker. The Chantry's own teachings say that the Maker has turned away from the world. However, this did not stop him from unleashing the blight upon us all, or at the least allowing it to be so.

    If the Maker is not the creator of the world, as the majority would seem to have it, he is likely the greatest enemy the world has ever known. His punishment has destroyed the great dwarven civilization, murdered countless millions, and nearly destroyed the world five times over through the generations, all because of the trespass of a few mages. I will stop the damage done by this curse however I can, including preserving the soul of an old power thought lost to the world forever.

     If the Maker is the creator of the world, then I pray he can one day forgive the pride of his creations. If he cannot, his world has moved beyond him and found new gods. If he can, and he now wishes or one day will wish for the redemption of his creations, who is to say he does not wish for the redemption of the Dragon the mages of Tevinter once called the God of Beauty? Are all things not created by the hand of the Maker?

In either case, it is more important to me that I understand the old powers, and their role in our world, then it is that I destroy them forever out of fear or convienence.

Let something live and regret it, and one day you may atone for your actions. Kill something and regret it, and it is gone forever.

Death ends all arguments, and any hope of understanding.


My friend asked me to preserve something she thought worth preserving.


I gave Morrigan a child, and I will find them one day.



Excerpt from the Journal of Talis Amell, Mage

Modifié par Talisander, 14 décembre 2009 - 05:41 .

[Felene]

Talisander wrote...snip

So your PC agrees out of curiosity?

Just have to know the truth and value truth more than anything?

In this case, your PC is selfish.

He value his own curiosity for truth more than the lives he might put at risk here.

And please don't reply "there is no life that might be at risk here."

Seeking knowledge is good, but is he ready for the consequences of his action?

Or, at least, considering them?

For example:

When the Grey Wardens call for your PC to explain why is he still alive, is he going to tell the truth?

Because seems to me, he value truth above all else.

Or is he going to deny the act, lie, for truth does not needs to be share?

And, just what if PC is going to die whether he agrees with the ritual or not, will he still agree to do it?:innocent:

I guess not, for "Death ends all arguments, and all hope of understanding."B)

Modifié par Felene, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:45 .

[Volourn]

"PC will consider this decision only because he/she can cheat death"

False. My PC wants to save ALL victimized souls from the taint of the blight. This includes the Old Gods 9whatever or whomever they actually are). nothing in game tells me that all the gold gods are complete evil. The archdemon is a tainted soul that was victimized by a CURSE much like genlocks and other darkspawn are. You telling me if you could find a cure for the blight's curse to save all those dwarves/elves/humans/etc. that were unwillingly transformed into darkspawn you wouldn't take it?

That's what the Blood Ritual is for me. A chance to be a hero, and save a cursed soul. Quite frnakly, my PC is not a fraid to die. If he was, he wouldn't have fought dragons, revenants, mad dwarven paragons, etc.


You don't cheat death by doing the rituual btw; you defeat part of the evil curse you are inflicted with.

My morals tell me that the archdemon must be defeated and destroyed. If I can find a way to do so and save a victimized sould then I should do it.

Anyoen who refuses the Blood Ritual is immoral, and selfish and is damning a victimized soul to be cursed when there is a way to save that sould and stop the blight.

GAME OVER.


"But a Old God that can defend itself cannot be taint?

Simply be able to defend itself doesn't mean it is immune."

With this immoral atrtitude you could justify slaughtering all dwarves, elves, humans, and all other civilized characters because they are all suspectible to the taint and being turned into the darkspawn which makes them no different than  the old gods.

Are you evil enough to murder an innocent dwarf child to stop it from being cursed? I hope not but that's what youa re suggesting.

Modifié par Volourn, 14 décembre 2009 - 05:30 .

[Felene]

Volourn wrote...

"PC will consider this decision only because he/she can cheat death"

False. My PC wants to save ALL victimized souls from the taint of the blight. This includes the Old Gods 9whatever or whomever they actually are). nothing in game tells me that all the gold gods are complete evil. The archdemon is a tainted soul that was victimized by a CURSE much like genlocks and other darkspawn are. You telling me if you could find a cure for the blight's curse to save all those dwarves/elves/humans/etc. that were unwillingly transformed into darkspawn you wouldn't take it?

That's what the Blood Ritual is for me. A chance to be a hero, and save a cursed soul. Quite frnakly, my PC is not a fraid to die. If he was, he wouldn't have fought dragons, revenants, mad dwarven paragons, etc.


You don't cheat death by doing the rituual btw; you defeat part of the evil curse you are inflicted with.

My morals tell me that the archdemon must be defeated and destroyed. If I can find a way to do so and save a victimized sould then I should do it.

Anyoen who refuses the Blood Ritual is immoral, and selfish and is damning a victimized soul to be cursed when there is a way to save that sould and stop the blight.

GAME OVER.


"But a Old God that can defend itself cannot be taint?

Simply be able to defend itself doesn't mean it is immune."

With this immoral atrtitude you could justify slaughtering all dwarves, elves, humans, and all other civilized characters because they are all suspectible to the taint and being turned into the darkspawn which makes them no different than  the old gods.

Are you evil enough to murder an innocent dwarf child to stop it from being cursed? I hope not but that's what youa re suggesting.

Slow down, there is no need to share your thoughts so eagerly, half of them are trash anyway.

At least you no longer try the irresponsible arguments.

Volourn wrote...

This argument is very weak as pretty much every PC in the game could be forced into being a GW so no, it's not their 'job' if they don't wnat. Whose gonna kmill them? Not Duncan anymore. HAHAHA!

Did I ever say Old Gods are evil?

I say they have the possibility to become archdemons, now is archdemon evil?

Also, perpahs you fail at reading or understanding my previous post and jump to your own conclusion.

Because your "Felene's immoral attitude" is not mine.

Now, correct me if I misunderstood you.

Your PC will accept the ritual even if it will not save his life at that point.

Knowing that he can save one tainted Old God's soul and if he refuse, he can save more people from becoming the victim of the taint curse?

Even though you did state "My PC wants to save ALL victimized souls from the taint of the blight" ?

Want to be a hero?

Here is my thoughts on hero.

A hero knows he cannot save everyone or anyone, he save those he knows he can save.

By the way. Congratulation! You now have the mental age of a five-year-old. Not three-year-old anymore!

Modifié par Felene, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:17 .

[Silensfurtim]

I made a Poll btw lol, just for kicks.



http://social.biowar...6950/polls/907/

[DariusKalera]

Felene wrote...

Here is my thoughts on hero.

A hero knows he cannot save everyone or anyone, he save those he knows he can save.

Close. but not quite.

A hero knows he cannot save everyone or anyone, but he still tries.

[Felene]

Silensfurtim wrote...

I made a Poll btw lol, just for kicks.

http://social.biowar...6950/polls/907/

As of now, there are about 1000 posts on this thread.

And we still can't have everyone agree on whether "The Dark Ritual is/is not a selfish act as a Grey Warden."

This only shows how many people needs to have their moral compass repair.

Modifié par Felene, 14 décembre 2009 - 07:34 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Felene wrote...

This only shows how many people need to have their moral compass repair.

Yes.  It does.

[Felene]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Felene wrote...

This only shows how many people need to have their moral compass repair.

Yes.  It does.

I did be a fool if I believe my moral compass always points to the right direction.

That is one of the reason I still read this thread.:innocent:

[The Capital Gaultier]

Felene wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Felene wrote...

This only shows how many people need to have their moral compass repair.

Yes.  It does.

I did be a fool if I believe my moral compass always points to the right direction.

That is one of the reason I still read this thread.:innocent:

Too true.  For all the flame wars and groupthink on the Internet, I do "meet" many people who aren't afraid to argue  counterpoint... even if they do tear me a new orifice.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Your scenarios suck. You assume too much about Morrigan, especially as it pertains to her seeking power.  The cardinal sin, though, is that you assume too much about the darkspawn as well.

And yet they are the best and worst outcomes. Or do you wish to add something to them.

And no, I'm not assuming too much about Morrigan or the darkspawn. Didn't I clearly state that a lot is up in the air?

We are not told Darkspawn hear the old gods call.
We are told they dont know why or how darkspawn are drawn to the old gods. They do know they search for them.
 
(And seeing as it took 400 years to find this one you can draw any conclusions about how they are guided or lack of guidance therein.)

Read the book. It's all in there.
One particualy verbose and less insance darkspawn specificly said that he and his "bretheren" hear the Old God/Archdemon's song and are driven mad by it and are drwan to find it.

And since it's supposed to be burried deep beneath the earth..digging around wihout a GPS or modern equipment might tak a while...a lot actually.

Lets take your scenario, and apply it to say a woman.
Best case scenario, they grow up and never see any darkspawn live a good life have a happy family.

Worst case scenario they are grabbed by darkspawn dragged underground and become broodmothers.

Thats it all the women in Thedas must die its far too dangerous to let them live.

Have you somehow forgotten the fact that our species would go extinct without women?
That only a few women survive to be taken. Of those that do only a few survie the transformation. Broodmother are not as big of a problem, sicne the darkspawn are not united wihout an Archdemon. IIRC, they are said to be fihgting amongst themselves.


@Yasu - the latter part of your post is what the Architect actually thinks. It's his personal theory. He doesn't know if the Old Giod is perfection. It's what he likes to belive (Iand I belive those were his exact words).
Ironicly, not even the Architect (darkspawn) knows nothing about the OldGod.
We don't know if the Old Gods are defencelss or irresponsible for the taint. You said that taht calling is an unintentional side effect. Maybe. Maybe not.
If you belive what the Chantry sez the then spirits/minds of the Old Gods are free to roam the Fade. tehy could be contacting hte darkspawn intentionally.

Now, since there is a clear conenction between the darkspawn(tained) and hte old God/archdemon, we need to ask ourselves - what is the nature of that connection. WHY are they conencted. Teh fact that only the tainted hear the old god cannot be a coincidence. I can think of 2 possible reasons for it:

1) the tainted hear the old gods as the Makers punishment
2) the dtainted hear the old god cause they are the source of the taint

Anyone have any more ideas as to why?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Fact, throughout the characters adventures it is quite possible that the character can learn to trust and yet indeed maybe find Morrigan to be a valuable friend/comrade-in-arms whom may have saved their behinds on many occasions, thus it isn't truly 'blind trust' as some of you have been stating, but trust earned.

*sigh* I told you before. If  you don't know what blid trust means then don't debate over it. You cna't go around distorting the definitions of words and terms just cause you dont' like em.
Do some friggin research man!

Dark Ritual - a selfish act as a Grey Warden? The answer to that question is purely peoples opinions. Both those involved and those around at the time of the Blight and after. If you yourself can't think of a reason how someone could justify it as selfless then you really haven't been paying attention to the facts.

On a scale of "smartness" the ritual is somewhere between "unwise" and "moronic". - since it's based on experimental, unconfirmed rituals with NO evidence whatsoever to back it up and a lot to risk.

On a scale of "goodness" it's between "douchebag move" and "complte monster move" - sicne you're fiddling with blood magic and gamble with a childs soul and hte lives of thousands.

The PC's motives can range from good (the stupid kind if you go trough with the ritual) to evil.

i'd like to add another fact: by killing the archdemon the full darkspawn might moves back to the deep roads. Due to your actions the Dwarves get a harder time.

helping them was a major factor in my characters decision

What does that have to do with the ritual? They rout and return to their cavies either way.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 14 décembre 2009 - 08:32 .

[Layn]

T0paze wrote...

They shouldn't.

Only an idiot would keep priceless diplomatic treaties not in some almost inaccessible castle but somewhere in the middle of the Korcari Wilds, without no guards at all and for anyone to steal (just like it happened).

they were kicked out of ferelden. i'd imagine once they were back they hadn't had time to get everything to the vault, and possibly didn't even know their exact location.

Felene wrote...
Just think about it, if PC will die no matter he/she agrees with the ritual or not, will the PC still agrees with it?[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

yes, but semi-reluctant.
as i said before, the blight just moved to another place, my character feels its her responsibility to deal with the aftermath of a blight on the surface and the death of an archdemon, specially knowing what big impact she and her companions can have (however only Zevran and dog remain with her in the end). that is worth the comparatively small risk to her.
now if that major reason is gone, all she saves is the old god. She doesn't believe it to be much of a risk, but there IS some risk, and she feels bad about doing it without being there afterwards to take responsibility.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Your scenarios suck. You assume too much about Morrigan, especially as it pertains to her seeking power.  The cardinal sin, though, is that you assume too much about the darkspawn as well.

And yet they are the best and worst outcomes. Or do you wish to add something to them.

And no, I'm not assuming too much about Morrigan or the darkspawn. Didn't I clearly state that a lot is up in the air?

I don't really care to add to them - just to point out that they don't really represent more than a spectrum of implausible realities.  It's more accurate to present a spectrum of realities with 95% certainty than include outliers and have a 100% spectrum.

And yes, while you did state that a lot is in the air, I think it's foolish to imply that the darkspawn are reasonable.  Morrigan may be able to control the child, but I don't think that she would be able to control an archdemon, let alone a Blight.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 14 décembre 2009 - 11:03 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

On a scale of "smartness" the ritual is somewhere between "unwise" and "moronic". - since it's based on experimental, unconfirmed rituals with NO evidence whatsoever to back it up and a lot to risk.

On a scale of "goodness" it's between "douchebag move" and "complte monster move" - sicne you're fiddling with blood magic and gamble with a childs soul and hte lives of thousands.

The PC's motives can range from good (the stupid kind if you go trough with the ritual) to evil.

Am going to give your original comment in this post the response it truly deserves... none, as it shows you don't trust any of your friends (if you have any) and for that I pity you.

I like how you ignored one key point I made which absolutely cancels out this argument of yours.

If no one ever 'experimented' in the world, we wouldn't be where we are today. We would still probably be acting like the neanderthal cavemen that we originated from.

Thankfully none of our great inventors (and the people that backed them) don't have the same mindset as you and thus here we are debating on the internet.

The fact is, as in the game, the Warden can still tackle this fight as if sticking to the original plan, but the fact is, if the warden striking the blow doesn't die, then the experiment is proven successful and thus allowing wardens in the future to possibly tackle it another way (Maybe he took notes of what happened during the ritual hehe) that will possibly save more lives other than just the wardens.

Before you try to say aah but maybe the warden striking the killing blow had some part in it. I'll give you an example of how my first playthrough character did it with selfless intentions.

She persuaded Alastair to do the ritual with Morrigan, someone whom for over the last year she has entrusted with her life and considers a good friend, am RPing the idea that despite this she stuck with the idea that one of them had to lay the killing blow and on the assumption that Riordan failed, she would be the next to attempt it so that if the ritual didn't work, she would at least die for her decision (even though she was going to be alastair's queen/princess consort). She survived and thus can now pass this information onto the Wardens that there is another way to end the blight. If they throw a hissy fit, so be it. She made the decision on the fact it could spare future Warden's lives and the test worked.

Now before you spout that she was being selfish due to her upcoming position, I point out that she went in to that killing blow not 'without fear because she knows they will both live' because as you say, it hadn't been done before, but instead went in 'with the belief it would and if it didn't she would die for her actions', either way, blight ends.

[Layn]

i'd just like to repeat what im sure i said before:

i'm not claiming that the decision to do the ritual was good or wise, that is up to each individual person and theres no point arguing over that since im sure no one is going to adjust their moral compass or whatever due to a discussion over a game.
however im arguing that characters after talking to morrigan and asking her questions can feel that it is the good thing to do, and not because they just dont want to die (which would be the selfish reason). Specially after telling Alistair everything and he agrees to do it (also not to save his life, but to save Riordan and the warden).

is what i claim really THAT unreasonable to you?

Modifié par Crrash, 14 décembre 2009 - 12:17 .

[Duncan Mac Leod]

Unfortunately, there is no Mercenary Base-/Sub-class ;-) in the Game-Engine, which I would prefer for Role-Playing. As for me, I only joined the Grey-Wardens to bring down the Traitor Howe, who killed my family. If I had known what's behind the Wardens Ritual, I would have never joined...



After killing Howe, I helped Denerim to stand against the Blight in the hope of getting a big reward (a title, land, money)...



So I see 'no problem' in making an arrangement with Morrigan ;-) ...



Just my 2 cents,

Duncan.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]The Capital Gaultier wrote...
I don't really care to add to them - just to point out that they don't really represent more than a spectrum of implausible realities.  It's more accurate to present a spectrum of realities with 95% certainty than include outliers and have a 100% spectrum.[/quote]

What are you getting at? How do you make decisions without assesing the worst and best possible outcome?
Of course, everything in betwwen is still there, but if the best possible outcome of an action is "get 1 silver piece" and the worst is "get killed", then you really need to re-think the action.
You need to ask yourself - is the best possible outcome worth risking the worst possible outcome and how likely are each to happen?


[quote]
And yes, while you did state that a lot is in the air, I think it's foolish to imply that the darkspawn are reasonable.  Morrigan may be able to control the child, but I don't think that she would be able to control an archdemon, let alone a Blight.[/quote]

ERm...whaaa? Darkspawn reasonalbe? When did I say that?
Morrigna controling the Blight? Again...whaaaat?


[quote]Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Am going to give your original comment in this post the response it truly deserves... none, as it shows you don't trust any of your friends (if you have any) and for that I pity you.[/quote]

Learn the difference between trust and blind trust. Then come back and talk. Untill then, leave the talking to the adults.

[quote]
I like how you ignored one key point I made which absolutely cancels out this argument of yours.

If no one ever 'experimented' in the world, we wouldn't be where we are today. We would still probably be acting like the neanderthal cavemen that we originated from.[/quote]

There are many kind of experiments. Not all should be done. Do you want me to experiment with flesh-eating viruses next to your house?
Also, a proper experiment and Morrigans ritual - not exactly the same..

[Baalzie]

Felene wrote...



A hero knows he cannot save everyone or anyone, he save those he knows he can save.

By the way. Congratulation! You now have the mental age of a five-year-old. Not three-year-old anymore!

So he'd save the Old God which is a given since even if all wardens die whoever does the blow the Archdemon is NOT reborn...

Congratulations You have the Mental age of a 3yr old Biblebelt American...
You seem unable to read other peoples' writings and actually understand them, just like any fanatic...
You are simply wrong on most accounts and no matter the proof people put before You, You refuse to see them, and add Your own  childfantasies as a filter on top of it so it fits Your own views...
And tries to have an air of looking down on Your opponents as if talking to a child, even when obviously wrong, classic fanatic behaviour...

Having any debate with You is pointless, seeing as You will never understand that You are NOT the center of the world and Your ideas are NOT absolute truths...
My guess is You were a VERY spoiled child brought up in a "spiritual" home environment...
That's where most who can't understand the base of debates and always cling to beliefs *in this case that You are right no matter what* the way You do, come from...

And maybe You should ask the creators of the storyliune what the answers to Your questions are? They are after all the creators of this whole world and every single creature and entity in it...
But I guess they'd be wrong too....

[Selvec_Darkon]

Becoming a Grey Warden is itself a dark action. People die in just becoming it, and they are killed if they don't become one during the ritual. The Grey Wardens are well aware that evil sometimes must be done for the greater good. I'm sure they would understand the need to take a path that may be considered evil, if the hope of a final end may be found.



Heh, not to mention I still have that ring morrigan gave me and I'm the Regent-King of a country, she tries anything and I can always find her and run her over with my army.



DA:O 2 is most likely gonna be from the perspective of that child anyway. You'll play the child, and thus get to create a new character I think.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Volourn wrote...
False. My PC wants to save ALL victimized souls from the taint of the blight. This includes the Old Gods 9whatever or whomever they actually are). nothing in game tells me that all the gold gods are complete evil. The archdemon is a tainted soul that was victimized by a CURSE much like genlocks and other darkspawn are. You telling me if you could find a cure for the blight's curse to save all those dwarves/elves/humans/etc. that were unwillingly transformed into darkspawn you wouldn't take it?

Not confirmed and not a fact.
We don't know if the archdemon is the victim of the taint or the source of the taint.

And what makes you think that an OldGod would somehow miracolously "cure" the taint from everyone and end all blights?

With this immoral atrtitude you could justify slaughtering all dwarves, elves, humans, and all other civilized characters because they are all suspectible to the taint and being turned into the darkspawn which makes them no different than  the old gods.

Are you evil enough to murder an innocent dwarf child to stop it from being cursed? I hope not but that's what youa re suggesting.

Archdemon = leder of the blight, possibly even the source
humans/elves/dwarves = actively reisting and fighting the darkspawn, cannot become darkspawn themselves, die shortly after becoming ghouls

So...yea.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 14 décembre 2009 - 01:15 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Crrash wrote...
Specially after telling Alistair everything and he agrees to do it (also not to save his life, but to save Riordan and the warden).

IIRC, you never really tell him the details...AND you have to have a very high coercion skills..and even then he barely forces himself to do it.

[Layn]

Baalzie wrote...

Congratulations You have the Mental age of a 3yr old Biblebelt American...

don't be a jerk. being a jerk hasn't ever helped anyones argument (actually it probably has, but still, being a jerk is not cool)

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Crrash wrote...
Specially
after telling Alistair everything and he agrees to do it (also not to
save his life, but to save Riordan and the warden).

IIRC,
you never really tell him the details...AND you have to have a very
high coercion skills..and even then he barely forces himself to do
it.

guh... i didn't want to argue with you anymore, but i just have to answer this one.
true, my character has high cunning and coercion (being able to talk through a situation peacefully is an integral part of my "good" heroes. but they wont use it to lie and manipulate), my warden told him it was a ritual with morrigan which involved sex and would create a baby with the soul of an old god for her to keep. I think she told him everything. I didnt use persuade at all, and yes he got angry (what'd you expect with that blind hatred for morrigan and everything non-chantry) and yet he got over it and agreed to do it only because he believes its worth it to avoid risking riordan (lol, that didn't work out) or my warden to die.

Modifié par Crrash, 14 décembre 2009 - 01:40 .