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Dark Ritual - a selfish act as a Grey Warden?


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#1126
Sialater

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Kodopitharos wrote...

A very interesting thread so far, and one of the reasons why this is a great game indeed! :lol:

Personally, I consider it, strictly speaking, a mistake to describe an action per se, as selfish or not. IMHO, the adjective 'selfish' simply is not applicable to action. The person acting or his/hers motives might be selfish but the action, at least without taking into account the person's motives and reasoning, cannot (or should not?) be called selfish.

With that in mind, your character can follow a multitude of paths and undergo various changes or mind, attitude and whatnot during his journey from being drafted in the Grey Wardens to being a great hero.
As far as my Dalish character was concerned, going out into the world, becoming a grey warden, etc. was quite the revelation. In brief, he found a world on the brink of being consumed by the blight and in the meanwhile the following were taking place:

-The kingdom of Ferelden was focused on power politics, treachery. So called heroes ferelden, betray their king, let thousands be massacred so they can play at being rulers

- Dwarves start ****ing about who gets to be king, and there is the undeniable feeling that the disputing parties had something to do with the death of the former king and his chosen heir.

- The dalish are in the business of cursed humans for personal vengeance and then damning their own people in the process... "so what if my own people get wiped out, it is ok as long as I get my personal revenge... isnt that what leaders are supposed to act like?"

- The circle overrun with demons, they cant keep their own people in check obviously. Of course the rational choice is for the chantry to call an exterminatus. "Bloody hell, let's just kill them all, destroy the circle.... sure chantry preachers are so much more effective against a blight horde than fireball tossing mages!"

... and so after my character, saves Ferelden, knocks some sense into dwarf, dalish and saves the Circle and then eventually defeats the blight and in the process ends the disputes of who is to rule Ferelden, he should just get himself killed so he can let the aforementioned parties go about their bussiness... which of course proved what a great job can do ......

Well, during the game, my character came to see himself as the only force of reason and rationality. True enough most of the times you simply could not argue with people, you had to knock some sense into them. But still, apart from the Blight everyone (who was anyone) was going mad and more concerned about saving their own hides, even for short period of time rather than face the problems, rather than face realities.
So after all my hard work, I should let the world to the capable hands of these responsible people... dont think so. Alistair, although a good lad, he is ok for a good laugh while drinking ale, has the leadership qualities of a roast turkey and lots of time the attitude of a 8 year old. Anora, when all is said and done is a self-important, power hungry **** not too unlike her daddy.

It seemed to my character that the responsible and selfless thing to do was to make sure he remained around. Sadly enough, the most profound thing was uttered by the man my character took great delight in executing, Loghain. Realities must be faced, and we shouldn't live through myth and tales of ages past.

I just could not see how getting my self killed was the responsible, decent, good or selfless thing to do, especailly when that meant living the world to the likes of Alistair, Anora, The Chantry, Dwarves ****ing about power politics, dalish leaders out to get personal vengeance and damning their own who knows what else... a bit of a hollow and pointless sacrifice would have never been.

But then again I could have been playing the more 'lawful good' character and gone for all the (misguided?) idealism thing :P

In the end I can only say it is a damn good thing we got the option and what a great game it is because of that!



Thank you.  Precisely why I convinced Alistair to, uh.... man up.

#1127
Series5Ranger

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Silensfurtim wrote...

I don't think doing the dark ritual is the "evil" option. More like an easy way out for the Grey Warden to save his ass.


Only temporarily cause the Taint will kill you anyway.

#1128
robertthebard

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Evainelithe wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

We all know that Grey Wardens die whenever they kill an Archdemon. They know that from the start. But in the game, we get to choose if we want to self-sacrifice, sacrifice Alistair, or perform the dark ritual with Morrigan. Obviously, some of us would prefer doing the dark ritual for continuity's sake.

What do you think what the other Grey Wardens would think about your ritual with Morrigan that lets an Old God get away instead of the Grey Warden dying with it? As a Grey Warden, you know your days are numbered and you know your responsibilities.

Should the PC be sent to a Grey Warden Tribunal  and explain his actions?

POLL

http://social.biowar...6950/polls/907/


Considering my PC was tricked into joining the Grey Wardens without being told about the joining survival rates, the shortened lifespan, the nightmares and the sacrificing to kill the archdemon thing I have no qualms whatsoever to do the ritual with Morrigan. And if the grey wardens object you should tell them they'd have probably done the same had they been in your shoes, the ones that sacrificed themselves just didn't happen to have a loophole in the form of a blood mage. Grey Wardens do what they must, right? 

Besides who are they to complain, they should be happy the two surviving -newly joined- grey warden bothered to fight the blight at all instead of just taking the treaties to the grey wardens in orlais (which imo was the sensible thing to do as they are so valuable and the survival rate of just two people isn't exactly high).

54% of the community that voted said no.  Of the people that said yes, the prime example that sticks out in my mind is the one that states that it is morally acceptable for the peasants to attempt to kill the PC for the bounty, even if they don't know that you are guilty of killing the King.  Selective morallity FTW?Image IPB

#1129
Sialater

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robertthebard wrote...

Evainelithe wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

We all know that Grey Wardens die whenever they kill an Archdemon. They know that from the start. But in the game, we get to choose if we want to self-sacrifice, sacrifice Alistair, or perform the dark ritual with Morrigan. Obviously, some of us would prefer doing the dark ritual for continuity's sake.

What do you think what the other Grey Wardens would think about your ritual with Morrigan that lets an Old God get away instead of the Grey Warden dying with it? As a Grey Warden, you know your days are numbered and you know your responsibilities.

Should the PC be sent to a Grey Warden Tribunal  and explain his actions?

POLL

http://social.biowar...6950/polls/907/


Considering my PC was tricked into joining the Grey Wardens without being told about the joining survival rates, the shortened lifespan, the nightmares and the sacrificing to kill the archdemon thing I have no qualms whatsoever to do the ritual with Morrigan. And if the grey wardens object you should tell them they'd have probably done the same had they been in your shoes, the ones that sacrificed themselves just didn't happen to have a loophole in the form of a blood mage. Grey Wardens do what they must, right? 

Besides who are they to complain, they should be happy the two surviving -newly joined- grey warden bothered to fight the blight at all instead of just taking the treaties to the grey wardens in orlais (which imo was the sensible thing to do as they are so valuable and the survival rate of just two people isn't exactly high).

54% of the community that voted said no.  Of the people that said yes, the prime example that sticks out in my mind is the one that states that it is morally acceptable for the peasants to attempt to kill the PC for the bounty, even if they don't know that you are guilty of killing the King.  Selective morallity FTW?Image IPB


Aren't they also then guilty of killing the King's heir? 

#1130
Herr Uhl

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Series5Ranger wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

I don't think doing the dark ritual is the "evil" option. More like an easy way out for the Grey Warden to save his ass.


Only temporarily cause the Taint will kill you anyway.


Well, even without the taint it is only temporary...

#1131
ushae

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I personally think that the child presents an even greater threat that the Archdemon itself. Imagine a Mage with the strength of an Old God ? Morrigan made mention that some things are worth preserving in this world (personally I told her to shove it and leave lol), I would say that she and Flemeth are Tevinter by origin and seek to resurrect the ancient order in a new light, with the child at its head. Remember that the Tevinter once worshipped the Old Gods, so it isn't a far stretch that they would want to bring them back in full form again.



Flemeth saved the Warden for this exact purpose. So what happens if the Warden chooses another path ? Does Morrigan take the essence anyway ?



Not to mention the potential the story from 'The Calling' Novel could provide to any sequals planned. Imagine what the Architect would make of this particular event ? Clearly the child would prove a great threat to his people.

#1132
Obadiah

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ushae wrote...
...
I personally think that the child presents an even greater threat that the Archdemon itself. Imagine a Mage with the strength of an Old God ? Morrigan made mention that some things are worth preserving in this world (personally I told her to shove it and leave lol), I would say that she and Flemeth are Tevinter by origin and seek to resurrect the ancient order in a new light, with the child at its head.
...


If you pick the right conversation options when Morrigan offers the ritual she says flat out that she means no harm to Ferelden, and gives an amused laugh when King Alistair asks for assurances that this baby not return to threaten the realm, before giving that assurance.

I think she is out to gain personnal power, but who knows. Can the PC really trust her given her behavior, and is it worth the risk? I think not.

#1133
Guest_Evainelithe_*

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Obadiah wrote...

ushae wrote...
...
I personally think that the child presents an even greater threat that the Archdemon itself. Imagine a Mage with the strength of an Old God ? Morrigan made mention that some things are worth preserving in this world (personally I told her to shove it and leave lol), I would say that she and Flemeth are Tevinter by origin and seek to resurrect the ancient order in a new light, with the child at its head.
...


If you pick the right conversation options when Morrigan offers the ritual she says flat out that she means no harm to Ferelden, and gives an amused laugh when King Alistair asks for assurances that this baby not return to threaten the realm, before giving that assurance.

I think she is out to gain personnal power, but who knows. Can the PC really trust her given her behavior, and is it worth the risk? I think not.


Ferelden is a tiny nation compared to the rest of the world, Morrigan probably has her sights on something far better. Personally I'd say go for it and take the chantry down while you're at it.

#1134
robertthebard

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Sialater wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

54% of the community that voted said no.  Of the people that said yes, the prime example that sticks out in my mind is the one that states that it is morally acceptable for the peasants to attempt to kill the PC for the bounty, even if they don't know that you are guilty of killing the King.  Selective morallity FTW?Image IPB


Aren't they also then guilty of killing the King's heir? 

Who, the peasants?  This is in Lothering, and Alistair is alive and emotionally unstable.  They are trying to collect Loghain's bounty, instead of maybe taking all that skill at arms they suddenly develop and hunting for food.  They attempt a shortcut to wealth, and fame, btw for taking out a Grey Warden, according to them to feed a lot of bellies.  Gee, they'd have lived a lot longer killing off those bears, spiders and wolves in that little section of the map.Image IPB

#1135
Sialater

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robertthebard wrote...

Sialater wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

54% of the community that voted said no.  Of the people that said yes, the prime example that sticks out in my mind is the one that states that it is morally acceptable for the peasants to attempt to kill the PC for the bounty, even if they don't know that you are guilty of killing the King.  Selective morallity FTW?Image IPB


Aren't they also then guilty of killing the King's heir? 

Who, the peasants?  This is in Lothering, and Alistair is alive and emotionally unstable.  They are trying to collect Loghain's bounty, instead of maybe taking all that skill at arms they suddenly develop and hunting for food.  They attempt a shortcut to wealth, and fame, btw for taking out a Grey Warden, according to them to feed a lot of bellies.  Gee, they'd have lived a lot longer killing off those bears, spiders and wolves in that little section of the map.Image IPB


Oh, I agree with you, I'm just pointing out another of their crimes (the King's dead, and the heir is wandering the countryside with only you, a dog and an Apostate to watch his back -- not going to argue with you about Alistair's stability -- I'm pretty sure we both know where the other stands on that).  It's incredibly stupid of them to do what they attempt.  They leave their families without their assistance to be swallowed by the Blight.  Since they know how to handle those weapons, wouldn't they be better served, oh, I dunno, mounting a caravan to Denerim?

#1136
robertthebard

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Anything but what they did. That was a truly chaotic stupid move if ever there was one.

#1137
StaticSilence

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Finished the game last night. wow! what an epic finish.

As for my decision to say adios to Morrigan, I just have to say it was pretty easy. Anyone who wants a god-child with you and wont say exactly what they plan on doing with it you can't trust them. Women...sheeesh. You know, in general, any woman who wants your child without saying why.... don't trust them... ever. lol

Flemish saved you because she wanted the god-child- we learn that in the final conversation with Morrigan. Then, you have to remember Morrigan got you to kill Flemith to save her from future posession. However, like mother like daughter, Morrigan's interest was also about having the god-child for herself. All the talk about her childhood, about her feelings, etc. It was all a rouse so that when the time came for her to pop the question, you would likely have feelings for her (or self-saving interest) to get you to impregnate her so she could get the child. Once you say no, she has zero interest in hanging around- she doesn't care about the darkspawn or about you, just possession of the god-child.

Which, knowing that the old gods were false gods who pulled faithful away from worshipping the Maker, they offered god-like power to the Tevinter Magisters if they entered the Golden City. This is the type of false-god that Morrigan would have at her side- one that could give her ultimate power and god-like existence. You can presume this is exactly what Morrigan (and Flemeth before her) wanted . Could you imagine Morrigan with a powerful child god at her fingertips to teach and command? Hell, for all we know Morrigan's plan could have been to absorb the childs potential god powers for herself. Morrigan does have skills as a blood mage. I was not about to hand-over a child with the spirit of an old-god just to appease Morrigan to keep her in the fight. Alistair and I swore an oath to the Wardens. And if it involved death, so be it.

What's interesting is that with morrigan's ring at the end, you sense her regret. Perhaps she regrets asking me at all and realizes her thirst for more arcane power wasn't worth losing me.


I didn't expect Alistair to step up at the end. The entire game he was always wisecracking about not getting killed. though I had him hardened in character, I still entered the final battle fully expecting my character would die. 'Tis a funny feeling to accept your death. But sure enough Alistair lived up to his oath and made the final blow. I liked how he said that as he was king, and it was his duty to do whatever he could to protect his country (I had arranged Anora and Alistair to marry). Plus, he was the next eldest warden, and the task fell to him after Riordan died.

I've read a lot of forum comments about people not liking Alistair because he was whiny, annoying etc. But in my game, he was the true final hero. He stood by me in so many dungeons and he even slayed the first orge in the Tower at Ostagar. He was my friend from the beginning and I will miss him

Modifié par StaticSilence, 28 décembre 2009 - 10:21 .


#1138
robertthebard

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StaticSilence wrote...

Finished the game last night. wow! what an epic finish.

As for my decision to say adios to Morrigan, I just have to say it was pretty easy. Anyone who wants a god-child with you and wont say exactly what they plan on doing with it you can't trust them. Women...sheeesh. You know, in general, any woman who wants your child without saying why.... don't trust them... ever. lol

Flemish saved you because she wanted the god-child- we learn that in the final conversation with Morrigan. Then, you have to remember Morrigan got you to kill Flemith to save her from future posession. However, like mother like daughter, Morrigan's interest was also about having the god-child for herself. All the talk about her childhood, about her feelings, etc. It was all a rouse so that when the time came for her to pop the question, you would likely have feeling for her to get you to impregnate her so she could get the child. Once you say no, she has zero interest in hanging around- she doesn't care about the darkspawn or about you, just possession of the god-child.

Which, knowing that the old gods were false gods who pulled faithful away from worshipping the Maker, they offered god-like power to the Tevinter Magisters if they entered the Golden City. This is the type of false-god that Morrigan would have at her side- one that could give her ultimate power and god-like existence. You can presume this is exactly what Morrigan (and Flemeth before her) wanted . Could you imagine Morrigan with a powerful child god at her fingertips to teach and command? Hell, for all we know Morrigan's plan could have been to absorb the childs potential god powers for herself. Morrigan does have skills as a blood mage. I was not about to hand-over a child with the spirit of an old-god just to appease Morrigan to keep her in the fight. Alistair and I swore an oath to the Wardens. And if it involved death, so be it.

What's interesting is that with morrigan's ring at the end, you sense her regret. Perhaps she regrets asking me at all and realizes her thirst for more arcane power wasn't worth losing me.


I didn't expect Alistair to step up at the end. The entire game he was always wisecracking about not getting killed. though I had him hardened in character, I still entered the final battle fully expecting my character would die. 'Tis a funny feeling to accept your death. But sure enough Alistair lived up to his oath and made the final blow. I liked how he said that as he was king, and it was his duty to do whatever he could to protect his country (I had arranged Anora and Alistair to marry). Plus, he was the next eldest warden, and the task fell to him after Riordan died.

I've read a lot of forum comments about people not liking Alistair because he was whiny, annoying etc. But in my game, he was the true final hero. He stood by me in so many dungeons and he even slayed the first orge in the Tower at Ostagar. He was my friend from the beginning and I will miss him

Before throwing out "What we know about the Old Gods as if you know something about them, perhaps you should read this thread to see what we really don't know?  It's all good to want to look enlightened, and self righteous, however, at least base it on truth, instead of supposition.  Just a suggestion.

#1139
Thor Rand Al

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A good reason to continue on with a DLC or DAO 2. Maybe you're influence with Morrigan might change her views on how she raise's this baby especially if she fell in love with you or if you went with Leliana. Whether it be a positive outcome or a negative on how you two split after you did the ritual. Maybe in a DLC if you choose to do the ritual n you guys fell in love n you tell whoever's king or queen that you're gonna persue Morrigan you actually get to find her either thick with baby or the baby's born n take the game from there. Heck you could find her n if she's unwilling to cooperate with you then you could have the option to either kill her n take the baby n raise her/him; you'd have to keep the baby's true identity a secret cause if anyone knew then they'd constantly be trying to kill it.

#1140
Obadiah

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StaticSilence wrote...
...
You know, in general, any woman who wants your child without saying why.... don't trust them... ever. lol
...

Agreed. It really is that bloody simple.

Modifié par Obadiah, 28 décembre 2009 - 10:46 .


#1141
Belrix

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I'm not sure if this has been brought up, as I haven't read all 46 pages on this thread.



It should be noted that the will to survive is a powerful one. You are going into a MAJOR battle at the head with a 33% chance guarantee that you won't survive. Even less since you are at the head of the battle and could die easily prior to even reaching the Archdemon.



Most all people would try anything to ensure their survival or that of a close friend when it came to the final blow, it is survival. Logaine probably wouldn't hesitate, since he is faced with either living in dishonor and shame or dieing a hero of the kingdom and Reorgan(sp) is not long for the world anyway due to the taint would see it as a fitting end. But the PC or Alister, both with 30 years of life left (give or take), would definitly look at survival, unless they were brainwashed or had a martyr complex.



It would be even stronger if you had something to live for. Being a city elf, you could do much much more for your people by surviving and living as the hero than dieing the hero (which the fame would last for your people for just so long... lest they forget... as they always do).



I don't see any problem with going with the ritual, it's just natural.


#1142
Leyt22

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I did it for the achievement.



/threadlolimsoright

#1143
StaticSilence

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Self-survival is not what it means to be a Grey Warden.

"In war, victory
In peace, vigilance
In death, sacrifice"
- Grey Wardens' motto -

The third line is the most relevant. Alistair (in my game) understood that, just as I did when I rejected Morrigan's offer. I was ready to die when I went into that final battle.

@robertthebard- that's a really good thread, thanks for sharing. All the religions in DA:O are supposition (how similar to real life that is! I guess that is the essence of faith- believing in something when nothing supports it) All religious bits aside, the fact remains that Morrigan knew all along and played your heartstrings for the opportunity to convieve a god child. Those are bad intentions and thus I said goodbye. Damn woman took my wintersbreath staff too... that thing was expensive!

Modifié par StaticSilence, 28 décembre 2009 - 11:15 .


#1144
Sialater

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I maintain she didn't know all along. Morrigan likes to pretend she's smarter than she is, after all. She'd have been a heck of a lot nicer to Alistair if the PC was female, if she did. After all, no guarantee the girlfriend could convince him to do it. So, she's a snot to him for two years and has to have the female PC talk her boyfriend into it instead of proposing it to Alistair himself because she's alienated him? After all, she's SUPPOSED to be a master manipulator. And if you didn't give her the books, doesn't mean Flemeth didn't come to her later and tell her. In which case, you are playing into Flemeth's hands. I'll trust Morrigan, I won't trust Flemeth.



I doubt Morrigan knew right off, or she also wouldn't have objected to coming with quite so thoroughly.

#1145
Cavegeta

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I want to play as my character's and Morrigan's maybe evil maybe not "god" child in DA2.

#1146
robertthebard

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StaticSilence wrote...

Self-survival is not what it means to be a Grey Warden.

"In war, victory
In peace, vigilance
In death, sacrifice"
- Grey Wardens' motto -

The third line is the most relevant. Alistair (in my game) understood that, just as I did when I rejected Morrigan's offer. I was ready to die when I went into that final battle.

@robertthebard- that's a really good thread, thanks for sharing. All the religions in DA:O are supposition (how similar to real life that is! I guess that is the essence of faith- believing in something when nothing supports it) All religious bits aside, the fact remains that Morrigan knew all along and played your heartstrings for the opportunity to convieve a god child. Those are bad intentions and thus I said goodbye. Damn woman took my wintersbreath staff too... that thing was expensive!

I really like that thread, even though DG shot down my elaborate origin theory.  I really thought I was on to something too.Image IPB

#1147
Obadiah

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Sialater wrote...
I doubt Morrigan knew right off, or she also wouldn't have objected to coming with quite so thoroughly.


I think Morrigan objected because she didn't think Flemeth would send her off with the Wardens right then and there. She thought she would come to them at some later date with the proposal. I mean, she shows up at the end whether you send her away or not, so contacting the Wardens before the final siege is within her power.

#1148
StaticSilence

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If you don't do Morrigan's companion story (to kill flemeth), Morrigan still presents that question to you on the eve of the battle. This means she knew from the beginning, and also likely she knew that was the reason Flemeth saved you. Also, it reveals she knew Flemeth's objective sending her with you (she's was knowingly an accomplice to her mother in manipulating you for their ends).

The only thing Morrigan didn't know, was that Flemeth was going to possess her. Once you find that gift book for her (which reveals Flemeth's longevity is through child posession), Morrigan plays you with talk of her childhood and feelings for you to ensure you kill Flemeth for her (which I did) and hopefully provide her with the child (which I didn't).

Modifié par StaticSilence, 28 décembre 2009 - 11:48 .


#1149
bobsmyuncle

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StaticSilence wrote...

Self-survival is not what it means to be a Grey Warden.

"In war, victory
In peace, vigilance
In death, sacrifice"
- Grey Wardens' motto -

The third line is the most relevant. Alistair (in my game) understood that, just as I did when I rejected Morrigan's offer. I was ready to die when I went into that final battle.


That's so, but becoming a Warden doesn't make you less human. Very few people want to die (in fact, a desire to die is something that would concern a mental health professional). Relatively few are willing to give their life to protect others. In the US, we generally hold such people/professions in high regard (police, firefighters, military personnel, etc.) because it's rare to agree to do such a thing (the fact that not everyone goes into these professions with selfless motives is something I'll set aside for now). My point is that not everyone has it in them to be heroic, and drinking enchanted blood isn't what it takes to produce that heroic quality in a person. I happened to want to RP someone who is a good person, someone who is willing to go out of her way to help others, but not to the point of self-sacrifice. She's not a hero.

I try as much as possible to see my mage PC as a person and try to consider what she might think and feel, and I have a hard time imagining that a woman who has only very recently been permitted to leave the Circle tower and experience life would be willing to die so soon. Escaping death via Morrigan's offer was selfish and probably unwise, but I feel it would be out of character for her to stoically accept her demise, and she certainly wouldn't let Alistair die instead.

#1150
StaticSilence

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@bobsmyuncle Nice. I like that you play into the character. RP makes the game so much better.  I'm pretty sure no one "wants" to die, no firefighters, policeman, or soliders.  But they understand the sacrifice that might need to be made when the time comes.  It's the oath they swear to uphold the law, rescue people, defend the country.

My next playthrough is as a female human mage. Yes, after living enclosed in the tower for her whole life, I could understand why she wouldn't so easily want to give herself up.  My warrior was different, he understood the sacrifice that may be needed.


damn, this game is so good.  lol:P

Modifié par StaticSilence, 29 décembre 2009 - 12:24 .