1807 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

bobsmyuncle wrote...
I try as much as possible to see my mage PC as a person and try to consider what she might think and feel, and I have a hard time imagining that a woman who has only very recently been permitted to leave the Circle tower and experience life would be willing to die so soon. Escaping death via Morrigan's offer was selfish and probably unwise, but I feel it would be out of character for her to stoically accept her demise, and she certainly wouldn't let Alistair die instead.

Excellent points. That said, there are any number of reasons why you'd choose Morrigan's offer over self-sacrifice. The RP behing my Mage is that, ultimately, he genuinely feels that it is counter-productive to sacrifice himself or his comrades when there is a way to avoid the sacrifice and still accomplish the objective. Up until the Dark Ritual was offered he'd been quite willing to make the final blow himself.

That said, he's a very do-whatever-it-takes kind of guy, who finds much more in the philsophy of Qun then he does in the words of the Chantry, who is quite willing to resort ot any measures - reanimating dead, blood magic, demonology, poisons - if it protects those he has been charged to protect. This was simply one more thing he could do to achieve victory.

The fact he got to sleep with Morrigan was just a bonus.

[bobsmyuncle]

Yeah, I could see a Cousland, who has been raised with notions of duty, accepting fate and getting on with things. Same for Mahariel and Aeducan. But Brosca and Tabris I have a harder time picturing as heroes. Amell/Surana could probably go either way, I just went with the personality I felt I had created. One thing I do like about this game is how subjective it can be for each origin, such as the two dwarf origins and how it can shape their choice of ruler of Orzammar later on. Morrigan's ritual is like this - you can tell yourself the outcome won't be that bad, it's worth it not to die, the Old Gods are worth preserving in an untainted incarnation, or you can see it as dangerous, foolish, a dereliction of duty, and so on.



Another thing that might affect whether the PC is willing to die to stop the Archdemon is what he or she believes about the afterlife and the nature of the soul conflict with the Archdemon. Is the Warden's soul destroyed, because if so it's impossible to go to "heaven" (whether that means going to the Maker or going to the stone is up to your PC). If your PC doesn't believe in an afterlife (unlikely in the setting, but modern audiences tend to be rather atheistic/naturalistic and can't help but project that sometimes), he might not care and decide to end his life by doing good. Or on the flip side, perhaps the atheist PC doesn't want to die because this life is all there is and he wants to enjoy as much as possible.



I do enjoy the potential for RP the game offers, it's a ton of fun.

StaticSilence wrote...

I'm pretty sure no one "wants" to die, no firefighters, policeman, or soliders. But they understand the sacrifice that might need to be made when the time comes. It's the oath they swear to uphold the law, rescue people, defend the country.

I tried to differentiate between people who are suicidal and people who simply accept that death may come in the course of doing their jobs. I may not have been clear, and I didn't mean to conflate the two attitudes.

[bobsmyuncle]

JaegerBane wrote...

That said, he's a very do-whatever-it-takes kind of guy, who finds much more in the philsophy of Qun then he does in the words of the Chantry, who is quite willing to resort ot any measures - reanimating dead, blood magic, demonology, poisons - if it protects those he has been charged to protect. This was simply one more thing he could do to achieve victory.

As much as she likes Sten, my mage PC would convert to the Qun when pigs fly. Being leashed and mutilated may be some mages' fantasy but not hers.

I don't think my Tabris would tolerate being told what to do, but my Brosca might seriously entertain the notion. She's used to a caste system but at least with the Qun you're evaluated by ability rather than birth <_<

[wwwwowwww]

StaticSilence wrote...

Self-survival is not what it means to be a Grey Warden.

"In war, victory
In peace, vigilance
In death, sacrifice"
- Grey Wardens' motto -

The third line is the most relevant. Alistair (in my game) understood that, just as I did when I rejected Morrigan's offer. I was ready to die when I went into that final battle.

@robertthebard- that's a really good thread, thanks for sharing. All the religions in DA:O are supposition (how similar to real life that is! I guess that is the essence of faith- believing in something when nothing supports it) All religious bits aside, the fact remains that Morrigan knew all along and played your heartstrings for the opportunity to convieve a god child. Those are bad intentions and thus I said goodbye. Damn woman took my wintersbreath staff too... that thing was expensive!

While that may be true for those that voluntarily join, I wasn't given a choice in the matter. It was either drink the blood possibly die from it and join or get stabbed in the heart and die for sure.

From the beginning of the game, your character is doing things based on self survival, why should the end be any different? 

[Obadiah]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Yeah, I could see a Cousland, who has been raised with notions of duty, accepting fate and getting on with things. Same for Mahariel and Aeducan. But Brosca and Tabris I have a harder time picturing as heroes. Amell/Surana could probably go either way, I just went with the personality I felt I had created. One thing I do like about this game is how subjective it can be for each origin,....

This is quite true, and the reasons I've had one character pick the ritual over another. My Cousland was just too bound to duty, while carrying the weight of his family name. My City Elf on the other hand, by the end of the game, did not give enough of a flying-eff because of what he'd been through (and had a sneaking suspicion that Morrigan would get the demon-child anyways).

Modifié par Obadiah, 29 décembre 2009 - 02:02 .

[Farrrongoth]

This might be spoiler to some who hasn't had the romance with Morrigan so don't read if you don't want to know

I haven't read all 47 page cba so i don't know if anyone mentioned

but in the Morrigan story you find out that Flemmeth is immortal through possessing her children morrigan and flemmeth planned it from the beginning so that Flemmeth could possess a child with the power of an ancient god



Also Morrigan (Morgana or Morgan le Fey)

[whoshimashi]

Has anyone played the self-sacrificing ..noneasywayout line in the game.....what happens then..other than Morrigan leaving...I mean after killing the arch-demon..??

[prizm123]

what if this old god with Morrigan's influence and not corrupted ends up helping you down the road with the next blight? thats pretty much what i was thinking the ritual was for... seems like there could potentially be a very powerful ally

[whoshimashi]

This is the Old God of Beauty we are talking about and all through the game Morrigan have been thinking of appearance,,,I believe she will continue Flemeth´s ways of upgrading herself...to be even more beautyful the next time when she takes over the childs "it will be a girl " body releasing the spirit of the old gods uppon the world...for the darkspawn to taint once more...! What do you out there believe..??!! Rember the golden mirror you give to Morrigan.... aha... and the greatsword Yusaris "the dragonslayer" I am the mirror....reflect..! Bioware might have a sequal...in mind

[StaticSilence]

I used to be pro-sacrifice duty, and initially I rejected morrigan's offer. Now, I'm not so sure. So, I've played through the end of the game from a save point just before the dark ritual decision. Now I have two post campaign save files to choose from.



I read through all the discussion here about the choice. I think it comes down whether or not you believe what the Chantry says. Everything we supposedly "know" about Old Gods comes from that theology- and it's very one-sided: The Maker = good, Old Gods = bad. But this is also coming from the same organization that imprisons mages out of fear that they'll take over- and exterminates those who don't comply.



But now, with my two save files I can decide what course I'm going to take. Is that cheating? maybe. But I don't think the game did a perfect job explain the depth of the situation. Morrigan certainly could've made a better argument for herself.

[MagiST]

killing the arch demon the old fashion way ends the blight, period. "The blight ends here."

[StaticSilence]

I woke up this morning with a realization about Morrigan and this Dark Ritual.  I think this has to do more with destroying the Chantry's status as the predominant faith.   The Chantry teaches the belief that apostates are evil and all mages must corral/control themselves in the tower for their own good or be exterminated by the Templars.  It would make sense why Morrigan (and Flemeth) would want to destroy them- the Chantry has been trying to kill them and mages like them their entire lives.  Flemeth herself had seen it happen for centuries.

Established from the very first video of the game is the history between The Maker and The Old Gods.  In the narrative, the first line Duncan's voice over is:  "The Chantry teaches..."  and maybe that's exactly the problem.  We only have one side of the story- The Chantry's side.  The Maker is good, the Old Gods are bad and that's how we have to start the game.

But by preserving the soul of one of the old gods untainted of the darkspawn,  I think Morrigan could get the other side of the story.  By raising a child with the soul of the old god, The child could be the one to teach The Other Story and weaken the Chantry's hold on the faith of so many. 

Then, there was the matter of Morrigan just not wanting to tell you her plans of what she was going to do with the Child.  I think she's didn't want to tell you because ultimately, she doesn't know if you believe in The Maker or not.  For if you do, and she'll tells you this plan, you would certainly deny this one rare chance to clean the soul of the old god and like Morrigan said "give the old god a chance to redeem itself".  She's lived in the wilds her whole life- and her survival has been based on secrecy and hiding- It's very second nature to her.  Also note, you are the first person she's ever been close with, and has feelings for (underneath that cold facade she care's about you).  She doesn't want to see you die, but she needs to follow her destiny.  If you are wearing her ring at the end, you sense her regret in leaving and also, I suspect lying to someone she cares about.

You'll notice the theme of redemption in rife in this game: Sten, Caridin, Loghain, Zathrian, Jowan.  redemption of an Old God certainly falls in that category.  Maybe the Old Gods made a mistake... maybe not.  There's only one way to know- and that's to ask an Old God itself- untainted by the corruption The Maker placed upon it.
 
I think we're in for a Religious War of massive proportion.  Where eventually, your PC will have to choose which side it's on, and that decision may mean people who were once your friends are now your enemies.  I also think neither side will be right nor wrong, because the Truth always comes from a matter of perspective on the situation.

Bioware, I eagerly await...

Modifié par StaticSilence, 11 janvier 2010 - 07:03 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't consider it selfish. You do not only lose your life, or Loghain/Alistair lose theirs, but the person who does it has his SOUL destroyed, as does the Archdemon.



One thing is to kill someone or something, but to destroy one's soul? That is something I wouldn't do to Satan himself, nor would I ever discard my own soul just for the CHANCE that the Morigan's child MIGHT turn out bad.

[TUHD]

StaticSilence wrote...

I woke up this morning with a realization about Morrigan and this Dark Ritual.  I think this has to do more with destroying the Chantry's status as the predominant faith.   The Chantry teaches the belief that apostates are evil and all mages must corral/control themselves in the tower for their own good or be exterminated by the Templars.  It would make sense why Morrigan (and Flemeth) would want to destroy them- the Chantry has been trying to kill them and mages like them their entire lives.  Flemeth herself had seen it happen for centuries.

Established from the very first video of the game is the history between The Maker and The Old Gods.  In the narrative, the first line Duncan's voice over is:  "The Chantry teaches..."  and maybe that's exactly the problem.  We only have one side of the story- The Chantry's side.  The Maker is good, the Old Gods are bad and that's how we have to start the game.

But by preserving the soul of one of the old gods untainted of the darkspawn,  I think Morrigan could get the other side of the story.  By raising a child with the soul of the old god, The child could be the one to teach The Other Story and weaken the Chantry's hold on the faith of so many. 

Then, there was the matter of Morrigan just not wanting to tell you her plans of what she was going to do with the Child.  I think she's didn't want to tell you because ultimately, she doesn't know if you believe in The Maker or not.  For if you do, and she'll tells you this plan, you would certainly deny this one rare chance to clean the soul of the old god and like Morrigan said "give the old god a chance to redeem itself".  She's lived in the wilds her whole life- and her survival has been based on secrecy and hiding- It's very second nature to her.  Also note, you are the first person she's ever been close with, and has feelings for (underneath that cold facade she care's about you).  She doesn't want to see you die, but she needs to follow her destiny.  If you are wearing her ring at the end, you sense her regret in leaving and also, I suspect lying to someone she cares about.

You'll notice the theme of redemption in rife in this game: Sten, Caridin, Loghain, Zathrian, Jowan.  redemption of an Old God certainly falls in that category.  Maybe the Old Gods made a mistake... maybe not.  There's only one way to know- and that's to ask an Old God itself- untainted by the corruption The Maker placed upon it.
 
I think we're in for a Religious War of massive proportion.  Where eventually, your PC will have to choose which side it's on, and that decision may mean people who were once your friends are now your enemies.  I also think neither side will be right nor wrong, because the Truth always comes from a matter of perspective on the situation.

Bioware, I eagerly await...

That's about my view too... You get the Chantry's story, but during the game you can find some serious hints that there's something not completely right with the view of the Chantry upon it... (My Dalish Elf is going to hinder the Chantry as much as she can, as revenge for the Exalted March)

[Qun00]

I've done it before, but it seems... cowardly.

Grey Wardens don't fear or worry about death like a normal person does. Their cause is above themselves.

[luna1124]

I don't see it as selfish. Most people do not want to die.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Since I have enough reading to do for class without doing 47 pages in my free time, I don't know if this is mentioned, but...

 

The Wardens already have a way that they're pretty sure kills Archdemons and shuts down Blights. It's what they did four times in a row, and all those Blights are over. It's suboptimal, because they probably don't want to die, but it does what the world needs. Morrigan is offering a new way that she promises will work, but she offers nothing besides theory. I could believe that there was a proof of concept during the First, Second, or Third Blights (as I understand it, we know that this didn't happen during the Fourth) but she doesn't offer one if it exists. So, in short, you're going with an untested way of ending the Blights that (Morrigan says) will spare you and gambling that your life doesn't come with the horrible side effect of the Blight continuing with the Archdemon either possessing Morrigan or being reborn by tearing its way out of her body. And you're also gambling that the darkspawn don't find Kieran and taint him, thus turning him into a second Archdemon Urthemiel. And for that matter that your life doesn't come at the cost of an evil dragon god terrorizing the world without the aid of the darkspawn,

Spoiler

or (and I think this is the way this plot is going) a socipathic Ancient Elf getting his hands on the Old God's power and using it in his attempt to destroy the world of men.

 

So, in short, you're choosing not to do the thing that you have good reason to believe will solve the problem at the cost of your life in favor of an untested solution that may or may not cause problems down the road. You can easily argue that that's pretty selfish.

[GoldenGail3]

My Cousland surived the Fifth Blight because of the DA. Id say that she was trying to save both her and her lover, Alistair. My Canon probaly would've been a single female Cousland that did not take the DA without Alistairs existence.

[Qun00]

Generally speaking, it is unusual for a Grey Warden to have a perfect happy ending. As I understand it, their policy is to severe all ties with the rest of the world, so that they can have a full time commitment to their mission.

[straykat]

I don't know if I'd call it selfish per se. I mean, who wants to die? You're not supposed to like it.

 

That said, I still think you're encouraged to accept death.. mentally speaking. It's the Warden motto, it's part of a lot of Leliana and Wynne's ramblings.. you even get hints from Sten if you sway towards the Qun: He talks often about duty and finding identity in a role. Even if he doesn't know the details. Death is the main theme throughout the game, just like Home and Faith is for DA2/DAI. The one who defies the theme is Morrigan (survival)... but her idea isn't about mere selfishness. She promotes accruing Power. That's why you should be weary, most of all.

 

Or at least, as a standalone game that's how it comes off to me. After all is said and done, they wussed out on Morrigan's themes.

[Illegitimus]

I don't know if I'd call it selfish per se. I mean, who wants to die? You're not supposed to like it.

 

That said, I still think you're encouraged to accept death.. mentally speaking. It's the Warden motto, i

 

You are also encouraged to seize any means available to achieve the ultimate goal.  Pointless self-sacrifice is no virtue.  My first warden chose the ritual not merely to survive but because he harbored some hope that the resulting being could be turned into a weapon against the darkspawn or at least a source of intelligence.  Whereas my next one will probably refuse it because she can't stomach pressuring an unwilling Alistair into doing it and prefers to sacrifice her life for him.  Because it's wuv.  Twue wuv.  

[Qun00]

I don't know if I'd call it selfish per se. I mean, who wants to die? You're not supposed to like it.

That said, I still think you're encouraged to accept death.. mentally speaking. It's the Warden motto, it's part of a lot of Leliana and Wynne's ramblings.. you even get hints from Sten if you sway towards the Qun: He talks often about duty and finding identity in a role. Even if he doesn't know the details. Death is the main theme throughout the game, just like Home and Faith is for DA2/DAI. The one who defies the theme is Morrigan (survival)... but her idea isn't about mere selfishness. She promotes accruing Power. That's why you should be weary, most of all.

Or at least, as a standalone game that's how it comes off to me. After all is said and done, they wussed out on Morrigan's themes.

Morrigan appeals to your fear of death and lust for glory, emphasizing that it's the way out of a possible demise and mentioning that you get to live as a great hero.

[Deadly dwarf]

I just finished a run through of DAO with my female city elf rogue warden taking the ultimate sacrifice.  In previous run-throughs, I did the dark ritual without thinking much about it.  (Or rather, convinced Alistair to go through with it.)  Thinking about it more thoroughly this time, there are plenty of reasons both moral and practical to think twice about doing the DR.  First and foremost, what are the ramifications of an old god being reborn in the body of a human child? (Or half human/half elf or dwarf as the case may be.)  Has this ever been thoroughly explained?  All you have are a few brief lines from Morrigan who wants this child for some unknown purpose she refuses to discuss with you.  All of a sudden, it becomes pretty clear that Flemeth and Morrigan had less idealistic/altruistic motives for first, rescuing the PC and Alistair from Ostagar, and second, having Morrigan assist you in fighting the Blight.   Based on all this, the responsible Warden should turn down the DR.  It surprises me that the epilogue or follow-on DLCs don't involve a Warden Tribunal investigating the strange survival of a Warden who kills an archdemon and lives to tell about it.

 

On the moral ramifications of doing the DR, for a man to purposely impregnate a woman and then not be a father to the child produced is irresponsible even if the mother (Morrigan) is responsible for the separation.   Further, what does receiving the soul of an old god exactly do to the child?  Is it still really the warden's and Morrigan's child once this occurs?

 

It's surprising Bioware didn't fully address legitimate concerns a Warden would have about the DR.  Instead, it seems Bioware took it for granted that players would go through with the DR no questions asked.

[straykat]

You are also encouraged to seize any means available to achieve the ultimate goal.  Pointless self-sacrifice is no virtue.  My first warden chose the ritual not merely to survive but because he harbored some hope that the resulting being could be turned into a weapon against the darkspawn or at least a source of intelligence.  Whereas my next one will probably refuse it because she can't stomach pressuring an unwilling Alistair into doing it and prefers to sacrifice her life for him.  Because it's wuv.  Twue wuv.  

 

The ultimate goal being defeating archdemons. Not keeping them alive because someone on your team has a fetish for the past.

 

 

 

I just finished a run through of DAO with my female city elf rogue warden taking the ultimate sacrifice.  In previous run-throughs, I did the dark ritual without thinking much about it.  (Or rather, convinced Alistair to go through with it.)  Thinking about it more thoroughly this time, there are plenty of reasons both moral and practical to think twice about doing the DR.  First and foremost, what are the ramifications of an old god being reborn in the body of a human child? (Or half human/half elf or dwarf as the case may be.)  Has this ever been thoroughly explained?  All you have are a few brief lines from Morrigan who wants this child for some unknown purpose she refuses to discuss with you.  All of a sudden, it becomes pretty clear that Flemeth and Morrigan had less idealistic/altruistic motives for first, rescuing the PC and Alistair from Ostagar, and second, having Morrigan assist you in fighting the Blight.   Based on all this, the responsible Warden should turn down the DR.  It surprises me that the epilogue or follow-on DLCs don't involve a Warden Tribunal investigating the strange survival of a Warden who kills an archdemon and lives to tell about it.

 

On the moral ramifications of doing the DR, for a man to purposely impregnate a woman and then not be a father to the child produced is irresponsible even if the mother (Morrigan) is responsible for the separation.   Further, what does receiving the soul of an old god exactly do to the child?  Is it still really the warden's and Morrigan's child once this occurs?

 

It's surprising Bioware didn't fully address legitimate concerns a Warden would have about the DR.  Instead, it seems Bioware took it for granted that players would go through with the DR no questions asked.

 

I think they wanted to do more. They're just afraid.

 

It's kind of a classic trope... sex with witches under candlelight.. and strange kids coming from it. That kind of an Arthurian story. It's in that Beowulf movie. Except they're better.

[Deadly dwarf]

It's kind of a classic trope... sex with witches under candlelight.. and strange kids coming from it. That kind of an Arthurian story. It's in that Beowulf movie. Except they're better.

 

Good point!  And with a beautiful (if somewhat annoying) witch named Morrigan no less!