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[springacres]

My canon Warden struggled with whether or not to get Alistair to do the DR.  He had four alternatives: 1) cheat on Zevran in order to have an elf-blood child with the soul of an Old God who would very likely also be a mage; 2) persuade Alistair to do it against Alistair's will; 3) refuse and sacrifice his life, leaving Zevran to grieve alone; 4) refuse and have Alistair take the final blow, essentially murdering his friend.

 

In the end, he chose to persuade Alistair to do it, although he keeps second-guessing himself even now.

 

I don't think it was ever meant to be an easy decision, in all honesty.

[straykat]

My canon Warden struggled with whether or not to get Alistair to do the DR.  He had four alternatives: 1) cheat on Zevran in order to have an elf-blood child with the soul of an Old God who would very likely also be a mage; 2) persuade Alistair to do it against Alistair's will; 3) refuse and sacrifice his life, leaving Zevran to grieve alone; 4) refuse and have Alistair take the final blow, essentially murdering his friend.

 

In the end, he chose to persuade Alistair to do it, although he keeps second-guessing himself even now.

 

I don't think it was ever meant to be an easy decision, in all honesty.

 

If anything, both Alistair and Loghain are great in that moment. I don't know who's the better actor. But I never could carry through with it.

[lynroy]

I just want to say congratulations on the five year necro! That takes talent.

[cindercatz]

Morrigan appeals to your fear of death and lust for glory, emphasizing that it's the way out of a possible demise and mentioning that you get to live as a great hero.

She appealed to my sense of preservation of life, actually. She argued that the soul trapped in the AD was worth saving, and that the infant soul would survive as well, and she would raise the child, not like just a vessel for the old god. Initially, they were supposed to be a melded being, but they just let that ship sail. The alternative is the destruction of two souls, which is horrible. I set one (of six) Wardens to go through with the ultimate sacrifice route, just because he had that mentality and I didn't want to miss out on something big. But they just didn't deliver. Me personally in that situation, I'd always choose not to kill and not to die if I have the option. The soul is a different being than the AD, which is just like an illness of the blight. That's how I understood it in DA:O.

[straykat]

She appealed to my sense of preservation of life, actually. She argued that the soul trapped in the AD was worth saving, and that the infant soul would survive as well, and she would raise the child, not like just a vessel for the old god. Initially, they were supposed to be a melded being, but they just let that ship sail. The alternative is the destruction of two souls, which is horrible. I set one (of six) Wardens to go through with the ultimate sacrifice route, just because he had that mentality and I didn't want to miss out on something big. But they just didn't deliver. Me personally in that situation, I'd always choose not to kill and not to die if I have the option. The soul is a different being than the AD, which is just like an illness of the blight. That's how I understood it in DA:O.

 

The Old Gods deliberately opened that can of worms anyways. All of the lore is lining up to that. The god of beauty and Dumat are victims of their own folly. Exactly why I should have pity for them or their "souls"? Morrigan thinks it's just cool because it's old. Like a pair of shoes. She's like a Keeper -- except of Pointless Crap.

 

At this point, even their most devoted high priest is a maniac who hates them.

[cindercatz]

The Old Gods deliberately opened that can of worms anyways. All of the lore is lining up to that. The god of beauty and Dumat are victims of their own folly. Exactly why I should have pity for them or their "souls"? Morrigan thinks it's just cool because it's old. Like a pair of shoes. She's like a Keeper -- except of Pointless Crap.

 

At this point, even their most devoted high priest is a maniac who hates them.

We still don't actually know exactly what happened, or even what they are beyond the idea that the elven pantheon were very powerful mages of some kind. But Solas is basically our only perspective point, and he intentionally obscures everything, and of course has his own bias and purpose. We never see Solas at his full ability, either. We never see him manifest and act in the kind of showy sorts of ways Mythal does, but presumably he can. He's like the Greek or Norse gods walking around in the mortal world as these mysterious wandering sages in mythology, just giving a trace hint of who and what he is. Mythal certainly went out of her way to save the soul. In DA:O, the only thing we really have is that the soul is not truly responsible for what the blighted body is doing.

 

In the end, every soul is priceless to me in reality, so if that concept comes up in a narrative and I have the choice, one eternal soul is always going to be more important to me than any number of physical deaths, because their souls go on. If the blight destroyed souls left and right in the fiction, rather than just physically killing, it'd be a completely different choice.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In the end, every soul is priceless to me in reality, so if that concept comes up in a narrative and I have the choice, one eternal soul is always going to be more important to me than any number of physical deaths, because their souls go on. If the blight destroyed souls left and right in the fiction, rather than just physically killing, it'd be a completely different choice.

I like your priorities for the most part, but just one thing: as far as I remember we don't really know for a fact that there is an afterlife in Thedas. As far as I'm aware all we know is that souls go into the Fade for a while, and then pass on. They might for all we know be passing into nonexistence anyway. So, that might make the ethical calculus a bit more complicated.

[straykat]

We still don't actually know exactly what happened, or even what they are beyond the idea that the elven pantheon were very powerful mages of some kind. But Solas is basically our only perspective point, and he intentionally obscures everything, and of course has his own bias and purpose. We never see Solas at his full ability, either. We never see him manifest and act in the kind of showy sorts of ways Mythal does, but presumably he can. He's like the Greek or Norse gods walking around in the mortal world as these mysterious wandering sages in mythology, just giving a trace hint of who and what he is. Mythal certainly went out of her way to save the soul. In DA:O, the only thing we really have is that the soul is not truly responsible for what the blighted body is doing.

 

In the end, every soul is priceless to me in reality, so if that concept comes up in a narrative and I have the choice, one eternal soul is always going to be more important to me than any number of physical deaths, because their souls go on. If the blight destroyed souls left and right in the fiction, rather than just physically killing, it'd be a completely different choice.

 

I'm talking about the Old Gods. Not the Elven Creators. They're not the same. And we know Corypheus was misled.. and WoT Vol 2 repeats the same story.. he was "The Conductor" of the God of Silence, Dumat. And he lured the other high priests of their respective gods.. like the "Builder" (the Architect). These guys are real. They got bullshitted. That part is true. The only part that will be left to mystery is if it was actually the Maker's City. Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, the Old Gods aren't worth saving... I mean, for what?

[Illegitimus]

The ultimate goal being defeating archdemons. Not keeping them alive because someone on your team has a fetish for the past.

 

<snort>  Wrong.  But that is the kind of short term thinking that is the basic flaw of the Wardens.  Killing archdemons is and has always been a temporary stopgap measure.   It doesn't solve the real problem.  

[Aren]

 i'm shocked,7 years old! This topic was started at 2009.

@Qun00  I agree with you but you should have realized that the topic was very old,open a new one because clearly all the opinion that predate you were made without the considerations of the subsequent events.

 

@luna

The scenario presented during the 5th blight was pretty much different from the ordinary situations of the previous blights.

As Riordan said the Ultimate sacrifice is not the duty of the young wardens but more likely of those already near to their death(Senior wardens),the like of Corin,Loris,Gharael were senior warden close to succumb to the taint,among the Wardens the seniors always took the burden on themselves.

I think that for DAO a similar scenario is only the one of Loghain,since he aggravated the situation,he should be the one to carry the burden.

 

My character is akin to the Sakazuki Akainu personality,someone like him would have never listen to Morrigan,1 life for the world security seem fair to me,especially because i have Loghain.

[Aren]

<snort>  Wrong.  But that is the kind of short term thinking that is the basic flaw of the Wardens.  Killing archdemons is and has always been a temporary stopgap measure.   It doesn't solve the real problem.  

What? each time a warden killed an archdemon there was a relative peace of 400 years,while the last time that someone did a dark ritual Ten years later already started to show sign of danger on the corner.

kill them all and blights leaded by archdemons will be over.

[Aren]

I just want to say congratulations on the five year necro! That takes talent.

you're being generous and not realistic

2009-2016 more or less

6 years (ok it was winter of 2009....)

[lynroy]

you're being generous and not realistic
2009-2016 more or less
6 years (ok it was winter of 2009....)

I'm going from the date of the last post before the necro (Jan 2010). If they could have waited one month it could have been a six year necro.

[Serza]

'Tis a Necro worthy of a master.

 

I would drink, but I put myself on a sober streak for the sake of my liver.

[sniper_arrow]

Either way, the Old Gods aren't worth saving... I mean, for what?

 

Only Solas and Mythal knew about something about them that we don't so far. Maybe we can get an answer from the dynamic duo before we kill them (as far as DA4 would let us)?

[Aren]

Only Solas and Mythal knew about something about them that we don't so far. Maybe we can get an answer from the dynamic duo before we kill them (as far as DA4 would let us)?

Spoiler

The motivations that lead Mythal to want to help one of them were hardly for sympathy or because they are worth saving for her,she just wanted the power of one of them to further whatever revenge she think is necessary for her kind of justice against the Evanuris,she even mocked Morrigan when she said that she want to preserve things just for the sake of it and without a clear end or purpose.

Solas on the other hand from his banter towards Blackwall is in contrast,on one hand he believe that GW gave time to the world,so he want the archdemons dead,on the other hand probably he wold have handled differently with the old gods,but probably he may biased because he clearly see al the people of this world that are not ancient enough as kind of tranquils.

[Qun00]

'Tis a Necro worthy of a master.
 
I would drink, but I put myself on a sober streak for the sake of my liver.

2009, huh? Not even the most skilled mage could pull that off.

[springacres]

She appealed to my sense of preservation of life, actually. She argued that the soul trapped in the AD was worth saving, and that the infant soul would survive as well, and she would raise the child, not like just a vessel for the old god. Initially, they were supposed to be a melded being, but they just let that ship sail. The alternative is the destruction of two souls, which is horrible. I set one (of six) Wardens to go through with the ultimate sacrifice route, just because he had that mentality and I didn't want to miss out on something big. But they just didn't deliver. Me personally in that situation, I'd always choose not to kill and not to die if I have the option. The soul is a different being than the AD, which is just like an illness of the blight. That's how I understood it in DA:O.

This is how I feel about it, too.  It helps that of my two completed playthroughs, one was a Dalish rogue and one a Circle elf mage, and neither one felt particularly impressed by the Chantry's teachings about the Maker abandoning His creation by that point, and both felt that what Morrigan was describing was a plausible outcome given what they knew.

[Callidus Thorn]

I just want to say congratulations on the five year necro! That takes talent.

 

Qun00 has been practicing: Link

[Illegitimus]

What? each time a warden killed an archdemon there was a relative peace of 400 years,while the last time that someone did a dark ritual Ten years later already started to show sign of danger on the corner.

kill them all and blights leaded by archdemons will be over.

 

And that's a bad thing for the surface world since the old gods are the only things keeping the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads for the most part.  When the last old god is turned into an arch demon, the Blight Shall Last Forever!

 

 

You don't win by killing the last archdemon.  You lose. The goal is not to kill the archdemons.  It's to end the blight.  Killing archdemons is merely a means to that end, and one that is nearly exhausted.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And that's a bad thing for the surface world since the old gods are the only things keeping the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads for the most part.  When the last old god is turned into an arch demon, the Blight Shall Last Forever!

 

 

You don't win by killing the last archdemon.  You lose.  

Inquisition establishes that the darkspawn don't necessarily stay underground while the Old Gods are dormant. Which I suppose explains why Loghain and Cailan had room to doubt that darkspawn on the surface meant a Blight. I suppose I agree that there's no way of knowing what will happen after the Blight ends, but there's no real reason to think it will be all the darkspawn surfacing, since the Old Gods don't seem to be keeping all the darkspawn underground.

[springacres]

Inquisition establishes that the darkspawn don't necessarily stay underground while the Old Gods are dormant. Which I suppose explains why Loghain and Cailan had room to doubt that darkspawn on the surface meant a Blight. I suppose I agree that there's no way of knowing what will happen after the Blight ends, but there's no real reason to think it will be all the darkspawn surfacing, since the Old Gods don't seem to be keeping all the darkspawn underground.

Actually, I think this was suggested even in Origins.  I can't remember the precise reference, but I definitely got the impression that even without a Blight some darkspawn might mindlessly attack the surface.  (It might have been something as simple as the sergeant at Ostagar making a reference to "types of darkspawn we haven't seen before", or Duncan in the Dalish Origin talking about types that only appear during a Blight.  Though both of those are vague and the sergeant could have been referring to types of darkspawn the army had encountered at Ostagar, it made me wonder.)

[Illegitimus]

Inquisition establishes that the darkspawn don't necessarily stay underground while the Old Gods are dormant. Which I suppose explains why Loghain and Cailan had room to doubt that darkspawn on the surface meant a Blight. I suppose I agree that there's no way of knowing what will happen after the Blight ends, but there's no real reason to think it will be all the darkspawn surfacing, since the Old Gods don't seem to be keeping all the darkspawn underground.

 

I used the word "mostly" advisedly.  Yes, darkspawn will emerge in relatively minor incursions probably caused by population pressure or the development of some degree of self-awareness.  The vast majority stay below between blights.  But when the last archdemon dies they will already be on the surface en masse.  Except this time they aren't going back.  Darkspawn didn't need an archdemon to destroy a dwarf empire that was truly huge.  The reason why they haven't done the same on the surface is that except for brief periods when arch demons are active, all but a few remain below searching and burrowing.  When the reason for that is gone, while "all" darkspawn won't surface, lots and lots will.  Most probably since without the archdemons the only goal of the mindless darkspawn is to spread their disease so there's reason to stay in their already tainted lairs rather than going to seek potential Mothers.  

[straykat]

<snort>  Wrong.  But that is the kind of short term thinking that is the basic flaw of the Wardens.  Killing archdemons is and has always been a temporary stopgap measure.   It doesn't solve the real problem.  

 

The real problem? All I care about is saving people from blights. I don't care about why or some metaphysical discovery about the lore behind it. At this point, I think this world is OURS. No one else's. I'm not here to preserve anything, but save the life that thrives and makes a home here. Kind of the same thing I'd say to Solas as well. And also why I don't like Spirits.

 

And it wasn't a basic flaw of the wardens. It took them hundreds of years to figure it out, after much failure and Dumat kept rising back. It's hardly short term thinking.

 

And even if an archdemon was cleansed, I don't see what the big deal is anyways. They duped their own followers.. one which was so pissed he tried to destroy the world himself. We just need to close the chapter on these fools. Maybe I'll get a down to earth story again.

 

"All of this started because of fanatics and arguments about the next world. It's time we start caring about this one." < Real problem

[Illegitimus]

The real problem? All I care about is saving people from blights. I don't care about why or some metaphysical discovery about the lore behind it.

 

If all you care about is "saving people from blights" then there's no reason not to do the DR.  Sure it's reasonable that you just don't care that in 800 years or less our descendants are doomed because there will no longer be any way to stop the blights.  A lot of people just don't care about the extinction of their species centuries in the future.  But if all you care about is "saving people from blights"...well the Dark Ritual does that.  What's the problem?  Me, I'd like to work on actually ending the blights.