1807 réponses à ce sujet

[KCMeredith]

I was recruited against my will because that was the only way Duncan would get me out of Highever. I have every right to be selfish when it comes to killing the Archdemon, and I was already in a romance with Morrigan so I don't see why I should refuse. 

[Aren]

If all you care about is "saving people from blights" then there's no reason not to do the DR.  Sure it's reasonable that you just don't care that in 800 years or less our descendants are doomed because there will no longer be any way to stop the blights.  A lot of people just don't care about the extinction of their species centuries in the future.  But if all you care about is "saving people from blights"...well the Dark Ritual does that.  What's the problem?  Me, I'd like to work on actually ending the blights.  

My sense of justice and caring for the people of the world is to high to let alter the ideal of my character in order to perform a blood magic ritual to save the same beast that was the cause behind all this destruction,the only gift i granted to him was soul destruction a fitting punishment for those creatures of the ancient world.

As for the darkspawns,they are so numerous  that the old gods calling are not so powerful to be capable to hold them all underground,many of them at this point are incapable to listen their calling due to long distances from their prisons.

[Illegitimus]

 

My sense of justice and caring for the people of the world is to high to let alter the ideal of my character in order to perform a blood magic ritual to save the same beast that was the cause behind all this destruction,the only gift i granted to him was soul destruction a fitting punishment for those creatures of the ancient world.

As for the darkspawns,they are so numerous  that the old gods calling are not so powerful to be capable to hold them all underground,many of them at this point are incapable to listen their calling due to long distances from their prisons.

 

 

So as you see, "saving the world from blights" is not in fact all your character cares about.  Note however that your character's desire for vengeance (regardless of whether its target had any choice in what it did) and fear of ancient entities of great power has nothing to do with the Warden ideology.  That's all yours.   The wardens exist to resist the darkspawn threat by any useful means.  Vengefulness is as much a potential distraction as, say love.  

 

Apart from that, while the Dark Ritual may be a sketchy maleficar ritual it isn't blood magic.  Notice the lack of bloodshed.  A rather different bodily fluid was invoved.  Also, given that Ferelden was initially labouring under the misimpression that the darkspawn had been eliminated as a significant threat prior to the blight (although the dwarves could have told them better), it can't be that many darkspawn who were surfacing between blights.  

[springacres]

<snip>

Apart from that, while the Dark Ritual may be a sketchy maleficar ritual it isn't blood magic.  Notice the lack of bloodshed. 

<snip>

A fair point, but not every Warden (or, for that matter, every player) is going to see it that way.  Given the generally dim view of magic in Thedas, and removing considerations like being in a relationship with Morrigan, I suspect a Human Noble or City Elf would be more likely to view the ritual with skepticism than a Dalish Elf, a Mage, or a dwarven Warden.  Those are the Origins I view as most likely to have been raised with a fear of magic in general, and a prejudice towards the Chantry's views on blood magic in particular.  On the flip side, the Dalish seem less likely to be concerned about the use of magic in general, and we know they don't much care for the Chantry, although it's implied that they have some justifiable concerns about blood magic (as suggested by the mention of "dark magic" in the story of the fall of the Dales).  How a mage Warden feels about the ritual is probably going to be a bit more complex and will depend to some extent on how closely they agree with the Circle's (and the Chantry's) teachings by that point in the game.  And it's hard for me to imagine a dwarven Warden would care much one way or the other.

 

I personally headcanon that the Dark Ritual isn't blood magic in and of itself, but is more akin to a "sacred marriage" or fertility ritual of some kind.

[cindercatz]

I like your priorities for the most part, but just one thing: as far as I remember we don't really know for a fact that there is an afterlife in Thedas. As far as I'm aware all we know is that souls go into the Fade for a while, and then pass on. They might for all we know be passing into nonexistence anyway. So, that might make the ethical calculus a bit more complicated.

It definitely would, but all things being equal with imperfect information, I tend to default to real world values. Only when the character I've created has very different and definite beliefs contrary to mine, do I default to their contrary logic, if that makes sense. And I make a great variety of very different characters in these games, but this is basically my core truth, so my characters tend to have that much in common where there's not some overriding reason they wouldn't. Good point though.

[cindercatz]

I'm talking about the Old Gods. Not the Elven Creators. They're not the same. And we know Corypheus was misled.. and WoT Vol 2 repeats the same story.. he was "The Conductor" of the God of Silence, Dumat. And he lured the other high priests of their respective gods.. like the "Builder" (the Architect). These guys are real. They got bullshitted. That part is true. The only part that will be left to mystery is if it was actually the Maker's City. Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, the Old Gods aren't worth saving... I mean, for what?

To me at least, it seems pretty clear that Solas and Mythal knew and value who that soul was (is), not just the power they can add to the pot. Corypheus only knew Dumat by the voice in his head, which was obviously a manipulation. But we don't really know the specifics of who that character was or what led them to such a dire situation in the first place. It makes sense to me that the OG were trapped somehow, just like the elvhen pantheon. We don't really know they're not really some of the same characters, or part of that close knit group. We just don't know yet. At first, we tended to get the impression it was basically like a very smart, magic high dragon. We know that's a long way off the mark.

As for value, it's a soul, period. Souls are eternal, and therefore of immeasurable value, no matter who they are. Especially if they're not completely responsible of their own accord for some truly great evil. But even then, it's an eternal soul, so I value them regardless of what they've done, and have mercy. Eternity is so great a timescale we have no real concept of it in this life. We have no experience to compare to that, no frame of reference. We can't really truly comprehend what that's like yet. It's not just an academic exercise. That's why we really, really all need mercy. So I default to that.

[SgtSteel91]

I was recruited against my will because that was the only way Duncan would get me out of Highever. I have every right to be selfish when it comes to killing the Archdemon, and I was already in a romance with Morrigan so I don't see why I should refuse. 

 

I too played as Cousland and these same reasons apply with the addition that the guilt of not saving anyone at Highever drives my Warden to make sure "everyone lives." Like going from Redcliff to the Circle isn't the most logical choice because it risks continued zombie attacks but damn if he isn't going to find a way that won't kill Connor or his mother. They might die trying to kill the Archdemon, but no one is guaranteed to die when they make the final blow. I also imagine the same drive is also why they are finding a cure for the Calling.

[springacres]

I too played as Cousland and these same reasons apply with the addition that the guilt of not saving anyone at Highever drives my Warden to make sure "everyone lives." Like going from Redcliff to the Circle isn't the most logical choice because it risks continued zombie attacks but damn if he isn't going to find a way that won't kill Connor or his mother. They might die trying to kill the Archdemon, but no one is guaranteed to die when they make the final blow. I also imagine the same drive is also why they are finding a cure for the Calling.

You just gave me a perfect reason for my Cousland to side with the mages.  Can't remember where I am in that playthrough; in fact I may already have saved/sided with the mages since that's my typical route - but I now have a headcanon reason to explain why, despite being a southern Andrastian human noble, she wouldn't take the more expedient/safer route of siding with the Templars.  Thanks.

[SgtSteel91]

You just gave me a perfect reason for my Cousland to side with the mages.  Can't remember where I am in that playthrough; in fact I may already have saved/sided with the mages since that's my typical route - but I now have a headcanon reason to explain why, despite being a southern Andrastian human noble, she wouldn't take the more expedient/safer route of siding with the Templars.  Thanks.

 

Also my justification for sparing Loghain. For my Cousland, it was part genuinely wanting Loghain to redeem himself and part not willing to behead him in front of his daughter (something he thinks Howe would do).

[Qun00]

I think the selfishness lies in the fact that you're gambling with the world's fate in order to save yourself.

Sure, maybe you simply trust Morrigan. But that just makes it confident gambling.

I too played as Cousland and these same reasons apply with the addition that the guilt of not saving anyone at Highever drives my Warden to make sure "everyone lives." Like going from Redcliff to the Circle isn't the most logical choice because it risks continued zombie attacks but damn if he isn't going to find a way that won't kill Connor or his mother. They might die trying to kill the Archdemon, but no one is guaranteed to die when they make the final blow. I also imagine the same drive is also why they are finding a cure for the Calling.

Meh. Isolde should pay for her actions.

[springacres]

Also my justification for sparing Loghain. For my Cousland, it was part genuinely wanting Loghain to redeem himself and part not willing to behead him in front of his daughter (something he thinks Howe would do).

That's gonna be tougher, since she's in a romance with Alistair.  I can see an M!Cousland going that route, though.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Meh. Isolde should pay for her actions.

Nobody says you have to roleplay a rational or just character. I certainly don't practice what I preach as far as the DR.

[springacres]

Nobody says you have to roleplay a rational or just character. I certainly don't practice what I preach as far as the DR.

Or even a law-abiding one.  My F!Tabris has decided that since the Denerim authorities blocked off the alienage and won't even let her back in, she doesn't give a toss about their laws either.  That said, she's not above helping Kylon with his problems either, just to deflect suspicion.  Apparently my warrior has a roguish streak.  XD

[Illegitimus]

Meh. Isolde should pay for her actions.

 

I don't think anything Isolde did calls for the death penalty.  

[SgtSteel91]

I was recruited against my will because that was the only way Duncan would get me out of Highever. I have every right to be selfish when it comes to killing the Archdemon, and I was already in a romance with Morrigan so I don't see why I should refuse. 

 

Actually expanding on this, the way I played Cousland was that he joined because Duncan wouldn't help him otherwise and because he thought being a Warden would make him strong enough to get revenge on Howe. He never cared about the Wardens or their duty; he was going to stop the Blight, get revenge, and rebuilt his home in Highever as Teyrn, damn what the Wardens say. It's what drove him to take Avernus' alchemical concoction and gain the Power of Blood and then let Avernus continue his research when he learned about the Calling (he wasn't happy to hear that).

 

Ironically, it was doing the Dark Ritual and the knowledge that he has a son now is what leads him to accept his place in the Grey Wardens and take his duty seriously; to protect Morrigan and Kieran, even at the cost of his own life. Which is how I imagine him accept becoming the Warden Commander for Fereldan. And it only compounds after Witch Hunt, when he reunites with Morrigan and Kieran.

[Qun00]

Ehhh... that doesn't work.

Morrigan only gets pregnant in the first sex scene if it's normal Kieran. OGS Kieran is only conceived during the Dark Ritual. Not before.

[SgtSteel91]

Ehhh... that doesn't work.

Morrigan only gets pregnant in the first sex scene if it's normal Kieran. OGS Kieran is only conceived during the Dark Ritual. Not before.

Is this directed to me? Maybe I worded it poorly. I meant that you know from talking to Morrigan about the Dark Ritual that she is going to have a child. And after preforming the Ritual my Cousland knows he has a son now so wanting to protect him and Morrigan is what pushes my Cousland to accept his Grey Warden duties.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't think anything Isolde did calls for the death penalty.  

I suppose I agree, but mostly because I don't believe in the death penalty. Those who agree with it have a lot of room to argue that taking the risk she did with Connor, which anyone could have told her risked countless deaths, deserves getting Darwin'd.

 

And of course barring either metagaming or questionably-supported headcanon, it's not even as simple as whether or not you think her actions merit death in and of themselves given that her death comes with the benefit that you're not leaving the demon unguarded for days or killing her far-more-innocent son. (Said questionably-supported headcanon is if anyone rationalizes that as leaving party members behind to make sure this doesn't backfire; the strongest evidence for that is that it doesn't backfire, which isn't enough to convince me given that we don't say we're doing so in character or lose access to any of the party. Heck they're all perfectly visible in camp.) That it effectively solves a problem in a less risky way than earns the "Golden Ending"* is actually why I view killing Isolde as the most moral option, as it solves the problem without killing her mostly-innocent, underage son or risking Connor killing a bunch more of the actually-innocent civilians Isolde has already done enough to victimize. It's not so much a punishment as the cleanest method of prevention, although to be frank her crimes make me feel a lot less cold making this argument.

 

* While this is not the basis for my decision, the "Golden Ending" does trouble me in that it does not show Isolde as having been in any way punished outside of the the scare she got and a mild dressing down from her brother-in-law.

[Bardox9]

Of all the characters I have made for DA:O, none of them were suicidal. If there was a chance of surviving why not take it. Only way I found out what happen if the Warden died was youtube playthroughs.

 

You can call that selfish if you want. I call it survival instinct.

[cindercatz]

I suppose I agree, but mostly because I don't believe in the death penalty. Those who agree with it have a lot of room to argue that taking the risk she did with Connor, which anyone could have told her risked countless deaths, deserves getting Darwin'd.

And of course barring either metagaming or questionably-supported headcanon, it's not even as simple as whether or not you think her actions merit death in and of themselves given that her death comes with the benefit that you're not leaving the demon unguarded for days or killing her far-more-innocent son. (Said questionably-supported headcanon is if anyone rationalizes that as leaving party members behind to make sure this doesn't backfire; the strongest evidence for that is that it doesn't backfire, which isn't enough to convince me given that we don't say we're doing so in character or lose access to any of the party. Heck they're all perfectly visible in camp.) That it effectively solves a problem in a less risky way than earns the "Golden Ending"* is actually why I view killing Isolde as the most moral option, as it solves the problem without killing her mostly-innocent, underage son or risking Connor killing a bunch more of the actually-innocent civilians Isolde has already done enough to victimize. It's not so much a punishment as the cleanest method of prevention, although to be frank her crimes make me feel a lot less cold making this argument.

* While this is not the basis for my decision, the "Golden Ending" does trouble me in that it does not show Isolde as having been in any way punished outside of the the scare she got and a mild dressing down from her brother-in-law.

I don't see her as guilty of anything other than naivete. She was trying to save her son, with no real understanding of who she had hired or his role in the civil war to that point. She had no clue she was hiring a blood mage assassin sent by Loghain et al, or understanding of the dangers she opened everyone up to.

None of my Wardens killed Isolde, I liked her personally. My fem city elf basically would do everything in her power to protect the innocent, so that's my rationale for her taking the circle help route. She'd already saved the circle, so it was just calculus that there wouldn't be enough zombies left for another horde for a few days travel back and forth.

My Cousland, on the other hand, was on the benevolent ruler development arc. Initially he liked the stories around the Wardens, but he was an irresponsible playboy younger son. After the death of his tryst during the attack on Highever, he was left with a mix of guilt and revenge as his primary motives, and then under Wynne's tutelage, he became more ambitious with a stronger and stronger sense of personal responsibility. He never quite left the playboy side of himself behind, though. He knocked Isolde out when she threw herself in the way to protect Connor, and killed the boy, because he simply couldn't leave the demon free another day, and he could neither partake in a blood magic ritual or kill an innocent woman who was no danger to anyone. Redcliffe's people were his responsibility, and he wasn't taking any chances with the rest of their lives.

And then my mage just went to his Circle buddies, and willed the demon to leave all himself. He was an extremely confident, ethical mage who believed in freedom and tried to live up to his own ideal. He also freed the bloodmage because of their prior friendship, but he came back to accept punishment anyway. His love for Morrigan became the most important part of his life, freeing her from the schemes and rotten influence of her mother. He's the only one that stepped through the eluvian. He's also the only one that was purely agnostic. He knew there was more than he knew out there, but he didn't presume to know what. He just would pursue his own ideal.

[Aren]

So as you see, "saving the world from blights" is not in fact all your character cares about.  Note however that your character's desire for vengeance (regardless of whether its target had any choice in what it did) and fear of ancient entities of great power has nothing to do with the Warden ideology.  

No? Uh?

Why you will not go to Riordan (or any other senior warden) and say to them about the ritual (the game do not allow to do this ok) but i'm sure that he would have been against it since he is the type alongside with Duncan of "the blight end here forever" without any type of compromise.

old gods=potential archdemons so is pretty much the GW job to eliminate  them,included their soul. 

keep the soul of the beast intact instead to destroy it is a GW path?

Nope is really the opposite way around.

and the dark ritual is a form of blood magic not just sex.

[Aren]

<snip>

<snip>

A fair point, but not every Warden (or, for that matter, every player) is going to see it that way.  Given the generally dim view of magic in Thedas, and removing considerations like being in a relationship with Morrigan, I suspect a Human Noble or City Elf would be more likely to view the ritual with skepticism than a Dalish Elf, a Mage, or a dwarven Warden.  Those are the Origins I view as most likely to have been raised with a fear of magic in general, and a prejudice towards the Chantry's views on blood magic in particular. 

blood magic is born from pain and violence that' just the lore,not a chantry propaganda,and i'm not doing anything of those things just to save the life of a dangerous beast of whom i defeated,he lost he die.

Also the dark ritual is blood magic.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't see her as guilty of anything other than naivete. She was trying to save her son, with no real understanding of who she had hired or his role in the civil war to that point. She had no clue she was hiring a blood mage assassin sent by Loghain et al, or understanding of the dangers she opened everyone up to.

I'd been rather under the understanding that everyone knew mages were potential time bombs. Isolde in particular I'd expect to know that since she's a member of the educated upper class.

 

 

 

blood magic is born from pain and violence that' just the lore,not a chantry propaganda,and i'm not doing anything of those things just to save the life of a dangerous beast of whom i defeated,he lost he die.

Also the dark ritual is blood magic.

She says that it could be construed as blood magic. So it might just be something a Thedasian would call blood magic without working the same way.

 

Not that that's going to stop me from imagining that she used her fingernails on whichever Warden did the DR, you understand.

[Aren]

 That's why we really, really all need mercy. So I default to that.

Sure,not for the archdemons and neither for the old gods however,my gift for them is soul clashing with Loghain,that's a merciful punishment for them both.

[cindercatz]

I'd been rather under the understanding that everyone knew mages were potential time bombs. Isolde in particular I'd expect to know that since she's a member of the educated upper class.



She says that it could be construed as blood magic. So it might just be something a Thedasian would call blood magic without working the same way.

Not that that's going to stop me from imagining that she used her fingernails on whichever Warden did the DR, you understand.

Most people in southern Androstian society, yes, but obviously there's the elves, the southern tribes, Tevinter, other hedge mages, etc. that disagree. What everyone agrees on is that mages need education, and most agree on girding against the influence of and potential possession by demons. I just take Isolde as trying to protect her son, and trying to ensure his freedom. She knew he needed education and discipline against demons like any mage, so that's why she went out and hired the apostate recommended by Loghain, (or his croney Howe, can't remember). She trusted them at that point, heroes of their war for independence and all that, but that's where she really made her mistake. It was part of Loghain's coup, crippling the other teyrns that could potentially challenge him after Ostagar, before he played his hand in full. Also why Howe took Highever and tried to exterminate the Couslands.