1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Taltherion]

As I was never told until the very end what was expected of me in order to end the blight ... as in many origin stories I had no real choice to become a grey warden ... I don't feel obliged to sacrifice myself.

[DariusKalera]

I think there is a difference, and separation, between the Old God's soul, and its body.



If, what is implied in the game is correct, there is a distinct difference between the two. The powers of one do not transfer over to the other. It is probably one of the reasons why Flemeth needs her daughters to be as powerful as possible. Because the powers of the previous body do not transfer over, only the personality, memories, soul does. If you think about it, it makes sense. If the powers transferred as well, then Flemeth would be running around with the powers of several dozen mages in her current form.



So, if only the soul is transferred, then the child, while memories and soul were transplanted, the powers were not since they were tied to its old dragon body. Which, is why the darkspawn seek them out. They are the most powerful creatures physically in Thedas. The fact that it has a soul seems to be secondary. If the most powerful creature on Thedas was a turnip, I'm willing to be it would be turned into an archdemon.



With the transferal into a human body that power is gone. While the child could "possibly" be a mage, and there for gain power and be corrupted by a demon, there does not seem to be any guarantee of that the child will be born with the gift. Even if it was, it would be limited by what the human body is capable of enduring.

[DalishRanger]

DariusKalera wrote...
 If the most powerful creature on Thedas was a turnip, I'm willing to bet it would be turned into an archdemon.

[ShadowKhan]

Whose to say Flemeth is not an old god herself by the very means outlined by Morrigan...just 400 years earlier? Hmm...the timing is suspicious..is it not?

[Badpie]

ShadowKhan wrote...

Whose to say Flemeth is not an old god herself by the very means outlined by Morrigan...just 400 years earlier? Hmm...the timing is suspicious..is it not?

Indeed.  And they seemed to have some sort of plan all along if you ask me.

[Realmzmaster]

Taking Morrigan's choice can be considered a selfish act, but what reasonable person would not take the chance. I do not remember anyone seeking to become a Grey Warden in any of the origin stories. It is thurst upon you. Given the fact your character is a rather new Grey Warden you have not bought into the Grey Warden "ideal". You are already guaranteed you will die within 30 years. My character wanted to see at least some of his life. Even if it meant fighting darkspawn for the next 30 years.

It will proably take the god child at least 18 years to come to full power, if it survives birth, which is not guaranteed. I would then know how it turned out and if neccessary go and kill it. My character ended the Blight, which is what Grey Wardens are suppose to do. It did not say how I had to end it. Why should my character be stuck with the same option that the warden 400 years before had. (tradition?). Your character makes a choice that has never been done before. It can be a good or bad decision. I do know one thing that by this choice a Grey Warden continues to live to fight another day.

[Maria Caliban]

Silensfurtim wrote...

We all know that Grey Wardens die whenever they kill an Archdemon.

 
We don't *know* that but it's likely true.

They know that from the start.

 
Right. Like Alistiar and the PC knew from the start.

What do you think what the other Grey Wardens would think about your ritual with Morrigan that lets an Old God get away instead of the Grey Warden dying with it?

 
It would depend on the belief of that Grey Wardens. They don't have a hive mind.

Should the PC be sent to a Grey Warden Tribunal  and explain his actions?

Not all the PCs are male, and I don't think there is a Grey Warden tribunal. If so, they can come to Ferelden where I'm mopping up the Blight they missed.

[Anya_Mornhaven]

Definitely a selfish act, though I understand why some people would choose it. It almost made me regret declining the offer and nominating my Warden to strike the final blow, though Alistair insisted on sacrificing himself out of duty and love. BAAAWW. Still, my epilogue had positive (altruistic bordering on grey) results, so I was happy.

Considering that Morrigan's upbringing has damaged her and she doesn't change that much even if you befriend her, I highly doubt she's going to be a virtuous paragon of benign, motherly love to the newborn. Depending on if the Old God's soul retains its knowledge in a new body, I can imagine Morrigan trying to coax out the child's arcane mysteries in addition to other unpleasant possibilities. So out of thinking for the future of Ferelden (or rather Thedas in general) and the potential threat of an additional Blight, I told Morrigan where to stuff her offer. Flemeth take her.

Anyway, what if the Old God doesn't want to return to a mortal existence? What if it would rather pass on into the afterlife for rebirth, or whatever follows? Luring it into a lesser shell seems insulting and also, from another perspective, you're keeping the God captive with no idea of what it (and not Morrigan) wants.

[Laurelinde]

Whatever you think of the Chantry, the Maker is clearly presented as a benevolent creator god. The Old Gods, even pre-taint, were against the Maker, which I'm guessing would make them 'evil' on a traditional, AD&D morality scale. So I reckon the dark ritual option is selfish and dangerous (though I did take it, so I could be queen, on the basis that Alistair was good for Ferelden and I was good for Alistair! I kind of wish I hadn't though.)

[Isaantia]

Just taking Morrigan's offer doesn't mean you will live. You could still die in other ways during the battle, in theory. And you'll still die from the taint eventually. It just means you won't die if you make the killing blow.



My human noble figured that if she survived the battle, she could always just kill the Old God again in a few years if need be. She did it once already right? It was more important for her to remain with Alistair and rule Ferelden along with him. It is better for the people of Ferelden and honestly, that is where her allegiance lies. For her it wasn't about saving Thedas, it was about saving Ferelden. Her becoming a Grey Warden was the route she needed to take to save her country, that was her sacrifice. Even if she wasn't in love with Alistair, she would have done the same. Loving her spouse is a bonus. There are ways to deal with the heir issue.



My mage, on the other hand, wanted to be a Grey Warden. She loved being a Warden for what Wardens represented. She was all about duty. She rejected Morrigan's offer, had Alistair (whom she loved and he loved) marry Anora and died. As it was supposed to happen for her. Everyone had a role to play and that was her role. To die as a Warden to end the Blight.



Neither of these characters are cowards, they are both doing what they believe to be the best decision relative to their worldviews.

[pmalygris]

Well I had to do it both ways.. The ritual gave me paragon status for my dwarf and reinstatement as the heir to the thrown in Orzemmar, but for all the accolades. It was still the coward's way out.

I am playing it through again now, I told Alistair that I had no feelings for him and sorta broke his heart, not that a human/dwarven relationship could go very far anyway.. I fully intend on making mine the last hit that kills the Archdemon. I will be much happier if I dont have to lie to the gray wardens about why I am alive.


Yes Morrigan, there are Much worse things than dieing. At the end, it is Morrigan's very immorality that convinces me to remover her from consideration. She would sacrifice all the elves currently held as slaves to get more Health. She has no issue with it other than its messy.

I did kill Flemeth for her, but honestly, I wish I could have done in Morrigan instead and taken Flemeth into the group.

mal

Modifié par pmalygris, 01 décembre 2009 - 08:11 .

[eschilde]

Morrigan doesn't even think of it as a real child. Somehow I doubt it's going to have a happier childhood than she did.



Question. Is the reason Morrigan says Riordan is no go really because his taint is 'old'? Maybe it's more that she doesn't want you to talk to him about it. I haven't tried talking to Riordan after she makes you the offer. Anyone know if that's even possible? I get the feeling Riordan would be like, 'WTF NO ARE YOU STUPID'



Demon baby definitely does not have a good ending. But it's hard to pass up the chance to live, too. Although the very sad ending if you sacrifice yourself is satisfying, it's also nice to have a happy ending where your whole party lives.

[Eclesis]

I have my doubts about the Maker as a benevolent god. According to his own religion he threw a hissyfit when people wouldn't worship him, turned the Tevinter mages into Darkspawn that still plague the world, then went and had a spiritual affair with a married woman and threw another hissyfit when she died trying to spread his religion. He sounds more like one of those Greek gods with an ego bigger than his head.



Compared to that I'd rather take my chances with the godbaby, or at least would be hesitant to label it evil just because the Old Gods opposed the Maker. It probably also has to do with how much your character trusted Morrigan. In my game she was a close friend and ally, and I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Either way, you succeed at the essential job of ending the Blight.

[DariusKalera]

DalishRanger wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...
 If the most powerful creature on Thedas was a turnip, I'm willing to bet it would be turned into an archdemon.

Exactly.

[twincast]

Itkovian wrote...
(in a world rampant with obserbable supernatural events, I found it difficult to RP an atheist *grin*).

Morrigan and Leliana have a nice (two-parter?) discussion about that. My main mage and I happen to agree with Morrigan. (My favorite banter is the one between Wynne and Zevran, though.)

My main was already dead set on sacrificing himself because Ferelden needs Alistair and Anora to share the throne and what's more, he didn't want his best friend to die. But then the offer came and after some hesitation (blood magic, sleeping with a woman) he agreed because he trusted Morrigan's claim that the child would not be evil and because preemptive murder can hardly be called ethically sound so to speak. The only worry being that the child could become a danger due to antisocial upbringing. So, he isn't totally happy with it, but in the end you gotta trust your friends, right? Plus, not dying is one nice bonus.

Someone mentioned mercy/redemption being a theme running through the game and as a matter of fact I spared every life that could be spared through dialog - even that bastard of a slaver. The only exception due to meta knowledge was Loghain and it literally pained me to do so, but I didn't wanna lose my best bud. Why can't I throw him into a dungeon, damn it? My main would neither slaughter someone who yielded nor trust such a ruthless bastard in battle. Mod, please?

edit: Another exception, after much thinking, is Flemeth - but she'll supposedly be back anyway.

Modifié par twincast, 01 décembre 2009 - 08:25 .

[marshalleck]

Laurelinde wrote...

Whatever you think of the Chantry, the Maker is clearly presented as a benevolent creator god. The Old Gods, even pre-taint, were against the Maker, which I'm guessing would make them 'evil' on a traditional, AD&D morality scale. So I reckon the dark ritual option is selfish and dangerous (though I did take it, so I could be queen, on the basis that Alistair was good for Ferelden and I was good for Alistair! I kind of wish I hadn't though.)

And in many tales from the real world, the Devil presents himself to people as a good guy who just wants to help out.

As for whether or not Duncan or Riordan would approve of me taking the ritual...they're dead. I don't think they have much to say about it at all.

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 décembre 2009 - 08:23 .

[Zalbaar]

Did anybody notice that just about everything you do in the game is a selfish act. Keep in mind the only reason you help anybody in the game is get back the army you lost at ostagar. You decide who is king in of the dwarves, both candidates are corrupt neither one does a good job as king. You can keep the golems thus using them to kill the darkspawn but at what cost. Yes you help the elves but only to get an army to kill the archdemon most will die by the end of the battle, and yet you can choose to kill the dalish and take the werewolfs yet another selfish act. You help the arl only to decide who will rule the country your friend or the now queen( only pick her to further your status.) You only help the alienage to find a way to take out loghain, You only pick a side on the mages quest to get more troops in your cause.



Also remeber it was only you and allistair doing all this as far as grey wardens are concerned. So now you care about what all these other people who were not there think of how you ended the blight.



Did both endings the one where you sacrafice yourself was incredibly sad.

[XOGHunter246]

Duncan deceived us he didn't even tell Alistair on warden has to die to archdemon

[eschilde]

My main was already dead set on sacrificing himself because Ferelden needs Alistair and Anora to share the throne and what's more, he didn't want his best friend to die. But then the offer came and after some hesitation (blood magic, sleeping with a woman) he agreed because he trusted Morrigan's claim that the child would not be evil and because preemptive murder can hardly be called ethically sound so to speak.

Morrigan's definition of what is evil is questionable to me. The other question is, do you actually think Morrigan will be able to control an Old God? Oh god, imagine a teenage Old God. The angst.

[Itkovian]

A note about the old gods:

The novel The Calling makes it quite clear (or as clear as can be expected) that the Darkspawn are not seeking the Old Gods of their own real volition. They are actually drawn to them, drawn by a song they hear in their heads. The Calling happens when Wardens actually start hearing that song, that's how they know it is time (I assume nightmares come with it).

Now whether or not the Old Gods are consciously calling out for Darkspawn is another matter, but still they are the source of the Blight... it is not simply a matter of they being the most powerful beings out there and of the Darkspawn seeking them out because of it.

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Cpl_Facehugger]

eschilde wrote...

My main was already dead set on sacrificing himself because Ferelden needs Alistair and Anora to share the throne and what's more, he didn't want his best friend to die. But then the offer came and after some hesitation (blood magic, sleeping with a woman) he agreed because he trusted Morrigan's claim that the child would not be evil and because preemptive murder can hardly be called ethically sound so to speak.

Morrigan's definition of what is evil is questionable to me. The other question is, do you actually think Morrigan will be able to control an Old God? Oh god, imagine a teenage Old God. The angst.

It not being a darkspawn is enough for me, really. I mean, I already killed the thing once when it had an army at its back. An uncorrupted god of beauty doesn't sound like something I'd be unable to stop. Pfft, just another high dragon for Yusaris to behead, another dragonbone plate set for Wade to make.

As to the question of the topic... It can be argued to be selfish or not, depending on just what you consider the old god to represent. But even if it is selfish, is it really wrong? You are saving the god of beauty, who was worshipped in Tevinter by feasts and composing plays and such, which doesn't sound particularly malevolent. You're also ending the blight without depriving the world of your/Alistair's/Loghain's skills prematurely. There's something to be said for the Darkspawn theoretically getting the child and corrupting it... But all the old gods they've corrupted so far have been deep underground and presumably unable to defend themselves. I don't think the soul being corrupted is a sure thing; it was made with grey warden blood, after all, and wardens don't get 'corrupted' by the taint like normal people do. I'd argue that the godchild would end up being immune to the taint just as wardens are, unless Mori purged it while in the womb.

So even if it was done for selfish reasons, I'm not sure the consequences of the ritual have to be all bad.  

[Curlain]

twincast wrote...

Itkovian wrote...
(in a world rampant with obserbable supernatural events, I found it difficult to RP an atheist *grin*).

Morrigan and Leliana have a nice (two-parter?) discussion about that. My main mage and I happen to agree with Morrigan. (My favorite banter is the one between Wynne and Zevran, though.)

My main was already dead set on sacrificing himself because Ferelden needs Alistair and Anora to share the throne and what's more, he didn't want his best friend to die. But then the offer came and after some hesitation (blood magic, sleeping with a woman) he agreed because he trusted Morrigan's claim that the child would not be evil and because preemptive murder can hardly be called ethically sound so to speak. The only worry being that the child could become a danger due to antisocial upbringing. So, he isn't totally happy with it, but in the end you gotta trust your friends, right? Plus, not dying is one nice bonus.

Someone mentioned mercy/redemption being a theme running through the game and as a matter of fact I spared every life that could be spared through dialog - even that bastard of a slaver. The only exception due to meta knowledge was Loghain and it literally pained me to do so, but I didn't wanna lose my best bud. Why can't I throw him into a dungeon, damn it? My main would neither slaughter someone who yielded nor trust such a ruthless bastard in battle. Mod, please?

edit: Another exception, after much thinking, is Flemeth - but she'll supposedly be back anyway.

When Morrigan started talking to my PC about saving and preserving an 'Old God' I thought back to her old discussion with Leliana here on belief in gods vs no belief, and I thought you complete hypocrite Morrigan (still loved her anyway )

[ReubenLiew]

No, she didn't state she didn't believe in Gods, she said she doesn't believe in the Maker, as in an all powerful father figure that created everything, plans out everything, and dominates all factors of life.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Eclesis wrote...

Compared to that I'd rather take my chances with the godbaby, or at least would be hesitant to label it evil just because the Old Gods opposed the Maker.

I'd go with the Maker. If nothing else, for practical reasons. Chantry is powerfull and everywhere and the Maker PWNED all the Old Gods.
1 old god child can't even compare with the Maker on the power scale, or so it seems.

[Bali_of_Terenas]

By accepting the ritual you're sacrificing your child (or one of your companions children) to save yourself.



As to if the Grey Wardens would approve I suppose it would depend on if they felt the Blight were ended or not. If so they'd be fine with it (any means necessary and all).