1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Illegitimus]

Sure,not for the archdemons and neither for the old gods however,my gift for them is soul clashing with Loghain,that's a merciful punishment for them both.

 

What are you punishing old gods for?  

 

 

 

No? Uh?

Why you will not go to Riordan (or any other senior warden) and say to them about the ritual (the game do not allow to do this ok) but i'm sure that he would have been against it since he is the type alongside with Duncan of "the blight end here forever" without any type of compromise.

 

 

The blight does end.  

 

 

 

old gods=potential archdemons so is pretty much the GW job to eliminate  them,included their soul. 

 

 

I'd rather eliminate the darkspawn.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Most people in southern Androstian society, yes, but obviously there's the elves, the southern tribes, Tevinter, other hedge mages, etc. that disagree. What everyone agrees on is that mages need education, and most agree on girding against the influence of and potential possession by demons. I just take Isolde as trying to protect her son, and trying to ensure his freedom. She knew he needed education and discipline against demons like any mage, so that's why she went out and hired the apostate recommended by Loghain, (or his croney Howe, can't remember). She trusted them at that point, heroes of their war for independence and all that, but that's where she really made her mistake. It was part of Loghain's coup, crippling the other teyrns that could potentially challenge him after Ostagar, before he played his hand in full. Also why Howe took Highever and tried to exterminate the Couslands.

I seem to recall her specifically saying she trusted Loghain.

 

Anyway, the fact is that she knew her son was a bomb that could go off at any moment, and depending on how well educated she was she could very easily have known that he can't really be defused. She knew that mages are kept in seclusion, and one would imagine she knew what the worst case scenario was if he wasn't. She couldn't have seen the exact circumstances coming, since as she points out this is back before Loghain was ridiculously obviously not to be trusted, but that's as much credit as I'm giving her: this could well have happened without her second mistake if Eamon had gotten sick in some other way or if someone else had let in an assassin, because of Isolde's first mistake.

 

Also I'm not sure of your interpretation of Loghain and Howe's motives, but I really don't want to have that argument again.

[Illegitimus]

I seem to recall her specifically saying she trusted Loghain.

 

Anyway, the fact is that she knew her son was a bomb that could go off at any moment, and depending on how well educated she was she could very easily have known that he can't really be defused. 

 

<snort>  Wild exaggeration.  Ferelden has a fairly large population of mages apprenticed outside the circle who don't go berserk.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

<snort>  Wild exaggeration.  Ferelden has a fairly large population of mages apprenticed outside the circle who don't go berserk.  

I'm not commenting on how likely they are to go berserk. I'm commenting that it can happen, and that even a dedicated First Enchanter can have it happen to them judging by the story of the Staff of Violation. If most mages did go that way there'd be no Thedas, but that doesn't excuse the fact that Isolde knew it could happen and kept him at her side anyway. Her exact anti-abomination precaution backfired, but even had it not he could still have gone abomination because what she did is innately dangerous.

[Illegitimus]

I'm not commenting on how likely they are to go berserk. I'm commenting that it can happen, and that even a dedicated First Enchanter can have it happen to them judging by the story of the Staff of Violation. If most mages did go that way there'd be no Thedas, but that doesn't excuse the fact that Isolde knew it could happen and kept him at her side anyway. Her exact anti-abomination precaution backfired, but even had it not he could still have gone abomination because what she did is innately dangerous.

 

Had Loghain hooked her up with a competent mage only interested in a comfortable sinecure outside the Circle not only would such a thing have been unlikely, but the tutor would have been able to handle a possessed child if it did.  It's not like Isolde was one of those "don't feel, conceal" parents who try to avoid the issue.  It is of course problematic that she was trying to retain the arldom for an heir who would be a secret mage.  That would have caused trouble down the road.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Had Loghain hooked her up with a competent mage only interested in a comfortable sinecure outside the Circle not only would such a thing have been unlikely, but the tutor would have been able to handle a possessed child if it did.  It's not like Isolde was one of those "don't feel, conceal" parents who try to avoid the issue.  It is of course problematic that she was trying to retain the arldom for an heir who would be a secret mage.  That would have caused trouble down the road.  

Trusting one mage and a castle full of muggles to handle an abomination is risky. Heck, we don't even know that there were Templars to help the situation if one occurred, and judging by the fact that Isolde felt safe trying this I'm going to guess there weren't any anywhere closer than the village.

[Illegitimus]

Trusting one mage and a castle full of muggles to handle an abomination is risky. 

 

 

He's an eight-year old boy.  Not that hard to kill or subdue even with a spirit's help

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He's an eight-year old boy.  Not that hard to kill or subdue even with a spirit's help

Uh, yeah he is. That's rather the point of the entire quest.

 

Any demon is dangerous. A rage demon in a cat can kill two templars, and both halves of that demoniac are less powerful than what we're dealing with here. A rage demon is way less dangerous than a desire demon, and no matter how weak the mage in question is he's more dangerous than a cat. A competent mage might be able to handle this in a straight up fight, but it's a bit of an assumption the demon will decide to take him head on when Connor could just kill the mage in his sleep or brainwash him like he did to Teagan. There's a reason demons in general, and abominations in specific, are feared.

 

The reason the Circle can usually protect people from this (if idiots don't assume they know better than the people who founded it) is because there's plenty of mages and plenty of templars, and if it fails it fails safely because there's thousands more of each on the continent that can be called in in a Broken Circle situation.

[cindercatz]

I'm not commenting on how likely they are to go berserk. I'm commenting that it can happen, and that even a dedicated First Enchanter can have it happen to them judging by the story of the Staff of Violation. If most mages did go that way there'd be no Thedas, but that doesn't excuse the fact that Isolde knew it could happen and kept him at her side anyway. Her exact anti-abomination precaution backfired, but even had it not he could still have gone abomination because what she did is innately dangerous.

It's dangerous, but not as dangerous as you make it out to be, given a proper tutor with honest intentions. Isolation doesn't make a mage any less likely to sign that contract with a spirit and become an abomination. Mages are not bombs. It just means less non-mages are around to get caught in the crossfire if it happens. But under templar supervision, the result for Connor would've been being made tranquil. As it is, if he survives, he grows up just fine, because now he knows better and he won't go for that temptation, the lie. He most likely would've been fine had there not been ulterior motives, as most hedge mages apparently turn out just fine. Possession is a choice in DA.

Mages are no different than anyone else in terms of how likely they would be to take that bargain. So it's as much about building character and guile with them as it is about training their skills.

edit: Regardless, it's about protecting her son to Isolde, including from templars, and she took the precautions I'd expect her to take. I don't fault her for that at all. She was just too politically naive.

[Illegitimus]

Uh, yeah he is. That's rather the point of the entire quest.

 

 

In that quest he was hard to manage because his possession went un-noticed until he had accumulated an army of possessed people and corpses, while Jowan was in the dungeon and that was with a possession by one of the rarest and most powerful demons to start things off.  Had he been supervised by a middling competent mage, it wouldn't have happened.  

[Qun00]

What are you punishing old gods for?

Now that you mention it... teaching Tevinter magisters about blood magic.

That, and the fact that the darkspawn follow THEIR song.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In that quest he was hard to manage because his possession went un-noticed until he had accumulated an army of possessed people and corpses, while Jowan was in the dungeon and that was with a possession by one of the rarest and most powerful demons to start things off.  Had he been supervised by a middling competent mage, it wouldn't have happened.  

The thing is that even the original demon ("one of the rarest and most powerful," in your own words) is dangerous, and it becomes more so by possessing Connor. A "middling competent mage" probably would have been trounced by an abomination of desire, if not forcibly co-opted the way Teagan and presumably the guards he fights you alongside were, and then the town is arguably worse off than it was with Jowan in the cell because at least Jowan is still alive and willing to help. True, a middling competent mage might have taught Connor well enough to avoid this peril, but since we hear a shade of presumably-actual-Connor shouting "I'll help him! You can't stop me!" in a child-who-thinks-he-knows-best-and-won't-hear-naysayers tone, that's a questionable assertion. The one thing we can be reasonably sure would have stopped this is if Isolde had bitten the bullet and handed over her kid.

 

 

It's dangerous, but not as dangerous as you make it out to be, given a proper tutor with honest intentions. Isolation doesn't make a mage any less likely to sign that contract with a spirit and become an abomination. Mages are not bombs. It just means less non-mages are around to get caught in the crossfire if it happens.

The Circle's intended purpose is to teach mages discipline, the way Jowan was supposed to be doing with Connor. A handy side benefit is that the mages (who really could be compared to bombs, though obviously that's not meant to be one-to-one; there is in fact nothing in the real world we could one-to-one compare to a mage) are surrounded by other mages and by templars, with a small number of priests around who represent probably the only civilian casualties of the events of Broken Circle. You're right that fewer civilians are caught in an Annulment than are caught in an abomination attack outside the Circle, but I don't think you're really giving that point the attention it deserves.

 

 

But under templar supervision, the result for Connor would've been being made tranquil.

Apparently DA2 establishes that people who are cured of possession the way Connor was are diminished mentally by the experience, and Connor certainly seems more vulnerable to despair demons in Inquisition than he seems to have been in Origins. And despite this, he wasn't Tranquilized. To say he would have been before is fairly questionable.

 

 

He most likely would've been fine had there not been ulterior motives, as most hedge mages apparently turn out just fine.

Again: my argument isn't that most hedge mages don't turn out fine. My argument is that stuff like Connor gets up to is not impossible if they don't.

 

 

Possession is a choice in DA.

Also debatable. The Rage Demon a Mage Warden fights in the Harrowing implies that he intends to forcibly possess you, and the story of the Staff of Violation concerns a mage who almost certainly wouldn't have consented to getting possessed.

 

 

Mages are no different than anyone else in terms of how likely they would be to take that bargain. So it's as much about building character and guile with them as it is about training their skills..

Mages are apparently easier for demons to find, partially because their minds react differently to the Fade than a mundane's does. And even if I'm wrong there (I don't think I am) the fact is that a mage is a better host for a demon because possessing a mage means the demon is more magically powerful than they already were (even if it's not by much if the mage is Connor.)

 

 

edit: Regardless, it's about protecting her son to Isolde, including from templars, and she took the precautions I'd expect her to take. I don't fault her for that at all. She was just too politically naive.

I do. She has responsibilities to people other than her son. An entire village of them. And as a noble, especially a regional-top-dog noble, she should know that better than anyone.

[sylvanaerie]

 

I do. She has responsibilities to people other than her son. An entire village of them. And as a noble, especially a regional-top-dog noble, she should know that better than anyone.

OMG This, this, this, 100 times this!  I wish I could like more than once per post.  I get she wanted to keep her son like any loving mother would, but she had more then just herself, her husband and her son to answer to.  She was responsible for all those people in her care as their Arlessa and should have known better.  She really dropped the ball there, but considering she's Orlesian (look what happened in the Blackmarsh with the Baroness), it doesn't come as any great surprise to me.

[Illegitimus]

The thing is that even the original demon ("one of the rarest and most powerful," in your own words) is dangerous, and it becomes more so by possessing Connor. A "middling competent mage" probably would have been trounced by an abomination of desire, if not forcibly co-opted the way Teagan and presumably the guards he fights you alongside were, and then the town is arguably worse off than it was with Jowan in the cell because at least Jowan is still alive and willing to help. True, a middling competent mage might have taught Connor well enough to avoid this peril, but since we hear a shade of presumably-actual-Connor shouting "I'll help him! You can't stop me!" in a child-who-thinks-he-knows-best-and-won't-hear-naysayers tone, that's a questionable assertion. The one thing we can be reasonably sure would have stopped this is if Isolde had bitten the bullet and handed over her kid.

 

We can hardly be sure of that.  

 

As for the rest, Teagan and the guards were co-opted because as typical warriors they had no magical resistance.  And a competent instructor keeping Connor under constant supervision would have noticed that Connor was at risk before the possession even started.  I expect every morning's instruction would have started with "Tell me about your dream last night".  Nor would Connor have become an abomination.  He's simply too small and young to make a suitable host for a demon to fully inhabit.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

We can hardly be sure of that.

Between the competent instructors, and the fact that if Connor failed he probably wouldn't have failed in Redcliffe, it's a better chance than what Isolde did. You can't make this setting's magic safe; it's all about minimizing risks. I don't think Isolde did so.

 

Edit: Or did you mean something other than "Taking Connor out of Redciffe would have stopped him killing a large part of the population of Redcliffe?" I don't think you were too clear on which part of my post you meant.

 

As for the rest, Teagan and the guards were co-opted because as typical warriors they had no magical resistance. 

And if it gets to the point where this matters, what would stop a demon from killing someone who has magical resistance? Not the magical resistance itself, judging by the fact that a Rage Demon can under the right circumstances handle a Templar.

 

And a competent instructor keeping Connor under constant supervision would have noticed that Connor was at risk before the possession even started.  I expect every morning's instruction would have started with "Tell me about your dream last night".

Would this have been enough? If it's at all helpful one can assume the Circle does it too, and they aren't entirely foolproof either.

 

 

Nor would Connor have become an abomination.  He's simply too small and young to make a suitable host for a demon to fully inhabit.  

I'm lost. What part of the lore are you drawing this from?

 

If it's the fact that the demon is technically still controlling him in the Fade this whole time, we don't get any hint that that's not entirely the demon's choice there, or for that matter that it's not how most abominations work. Or, for that matter, that it's doing anything to weaken the resulting creature, much less weakening it enough. Yes, the Warden can take the resulting creature if you decide to kill Connor, but the Warden can also take Uldred, and he's a much stronger mage who actually summoned the demon out of the Fade before it possessed him. Heck, both times I killed Connor I'd already taken Uldred down, since having a Spirit Healer is helpful and I don't mind getting preached at.

[cindercatz]

1. The thing is that even the original demon ("one of the rarest and most powerful," in your own words) is dangerous, and it becomes more so by possessing Connor. A "middling competent mage" probably would have been trounced by an abomination of desire, if not forcibly co-opted the way Teagan and presumably the guards he fights you alongside were, and then the town is arguably worse off than it was with Jowan in the cell because at least Jowan is still alive and willing to help. True, a middling competent mage might have taught Connor well enough to avoid this peril, but since we hear a shade of presumably-actual-Connor shouting "I'll help him! You can't stop me!" in a child-who-thinks-he-knows-best-and-won't-hear-naysayers tone, that's a questionable assertion. The one thing we can be reasonably sure would have stopped this is if Isolde had bitten the bullet and handed over her kid.


2. The Circle's intended purpose is to teach mages discipline, the way Jowan was supposed to be doing with Connor. A handy side benefit is that the mages (who really could be compared to bombs, though obviously that's not meant to be one-to-one; there is in fact nothing in the real world we could one-to-one compare to a mage) are surrounded by other mages and by templars, with a small number of priests around who represent probably the only civilian casualties of the events of Broken Circle. You're right that fewer civilians are caught in an Annulment than are caught in an abomination attack outside the Circle, but I don't think you're really giving that point the attention it deserves.


3. Apparently DA2 establishes that people who are cured of possession the way Connor was are diminished mentally by the experience, and Connor certainly seems more vulnerable to despair demons in Inquisition than he seems to have been in Origins. And despite this, he wasn't Tranquilized. To say he would have been before is fairly questionable.


4. Again: my argument isn't that most hedge mages don't turn out fine. My argument is that stuff like Connor gets up to is not impossible if they don't.


5. Also debatable. The Rage Demon a Mage Warden fights in the Harrowing implies that he intends to forcibly possess you, and the story of the Staff of Violation concerns a mage who almost certainly wouldn't have consented to getting possessed.


6. Mages are apparently easier for demons to find, partially because their minds react differently to the Fade than a mundane's does. And even if I'm wrong there (I don't think I am) the fact is that a mage is a better host for a demon because possessing a mage means the demon is more magically powerful than they already were (even if it's not by much if the mage is Connor.)


7. I do. She has responsibilities to people other than her son. An entire village of them. And as a noble, especially a regional-top-dog noble, she should know that better than anyone.

1. Teagan was entranced, not forcibly coopted, exactly like the templar in the Circle tower. The desire demon offered him something illusory he desired under a mild hypnotic effect (meaning he retains free will), and he took it. He'd fallen a bit further down the rabbit hole when we met him; it'd been a while. The same would be true of the guards. It slowly deceived one after the other over time, not all at once. We just come into the picture at the last possible moment.

You're right about Connor's willful agreement to possession. He was tricked into thinking the demon would heal his father. That was his desire. If he had been taught better, he might've recognized what was really going on. If Jowan hadn't brought that on Eamon in the first place, he wouldn't have been vulnerable to that desire at all.

2. Discipline's only part of it, part of the character a mage needs. Another part, the guile, means you've learned to recognize tactics used to lure you in, so that you don't fall into beguilment, the same way Teagan, the soldiers, those templars, or our party in the fade did. Willpower, which is perseverance in this case and the will to say no to whatever they're offering, that's another part. Discipline like we tend to associate here applies more to the regimented thinking a templar would usually be prone to. Maybe that's part of their problem. I love the way Morrigan talks to spirits, if you've used her to free Connor or taken her in the fade section of Broken Circle. She's not having it. lol

I don't think you can compare a mage to a bomb more than any other person with access to weapons (or a high enough intellect, martial training, etc.) They are able to do a lot of damage, but they have the power to say no. They can choose if they are going to fall into that or not. Convincing themselves that they can control the demon as an abomination, that's just as much a delusion they have to be mindful of. Yes, a lot of people can die when one gets out, just like a lot of people can die when a regular joe flips out, but it's a question of values. Freedom vs. Security. I'm on the side of freedom. If your security oppresses my freedom, then you've overstepped your bounds as far as I'm concerned. So that applies to the whole circle system to me, especially considering all the examples of plenty stable mages we've got, the great majority. Usually when we have seen them slip, it's because they're under severe duress, often from templars.

3. There's more than one way we can cure Connor though. With high enough willpower, you can just order the desire demon to release him outright (while in the fade). Blood magic vs. no blood magic, etc. He seemed fine to me in Inquisition. Guy has a lot of guilt on his plate, but he was well adjusted.

I don't think it's questionable to assume. Mages are made tranquil because of their lack of willpower. In other words, they're too gullible or prone to temptation, in the view of the templars overseeing their harrowing. When confronted with demons in the fade, are they resistant enough to the influence of fade spirits? Connor obviously failed that test the first time.

4. Not impossible but not likely. Every time I get in a car, I could crash, but it's not likely if I know what I'm doing. It could happen, but I'm betting it won't. And if something does happen, I'm betting I can manage it well enough to get through it. Same thing. I don't need instructors in the car and a police escort every time I might drive to the store. Which is where I'm saying Isolde tried to do the best she could for her son. Unforseen circumstances derailed the plan.

5. I read the story on the staff of violation, but I didn't really think about it relating to this at all. I've forgotten it, now, so I can't say. The rage demon in the harrowing, again it's a question of willpower, perseverance under stress. It can't just knock you out and possess you. You're not physically in the fade, so it's a test of minds, an abstraction.

6. No, you're completely right here. I just don't agree they should be cloistered off because of it, under guard at all times, removed from their homes, etc. Freedom is worth the lesser security.

7. Being a noble is what gives her resources to train her son privately and keep him out of the Circle. It's in a codex somewhere that nobles sometimes attempt to do exactly what she did, so I imagine that's where she got the idea. Loghain obviously had Jowan on retainer. I'm sure he's not the only one in her social circle. Yes, she had a village depending on her family, but she took reasonable steps. She was just betrayed by a snake false friend.

edit: By the same token, our player characters travel with multiple apostates and hedge mages. By that standard, all of them should've been in the Circle. Granted bad things can happen with all of them except Morrigan and Dorian (Tevinter non-circle mage). C'est la vie (sp )

[Deadly dwarf]

Going back to the original question -- and after having thought about it through several playthroughs -- I have to say that doing the DR is definitely a selfish act (even if understandable).  It requires you to have blind faith in Morrigan and what she intends to do with this child who has the soul of an Old God.  (Trust Morrigan?  What could possibly go wrong?)  Given her unwillingness to discuss those details, a responsible Warden should reject it out of hand.  No doubt Riordan would tell you to do just that if you were allowed to talk to him about it.  I'm surprised Alistair doesn't object to the DR as much as he objects to allowing Loghain into the Grey Wardens.  For all you know, doing the DR may result in the Blight resuming again later. 

 

To me, it is amazing that Bioware takes it for granted that people will do the DR just the same.  I would've expected a bit more drama for a warden choosing to do the US.  Final conversations with the companions should be more dramatic given the warden knows his/her fate and would be expected to hint at it, especially to Leliana if she is your warden's love interest.   You would expect the death scene to be more dramatic.  Instead....  Taking the DR route is the route more fully developed.

[Bardox9]

As I said is a previous post, none of my Wardens were ever suicidal. Willing to die if necessary of course, but it wasn't necessary. With the option of the DR or sacrificing Loghain/Alistair available, why do the US? Yes, Morrigan might have some terrible plot in mind for the kid one day. I always assumed the Warden would chase after Morrigan for this very reason, if no other. To find out what Morrigan's plan ultimately was. The immediate crisis is what must be dealt with. Whatever plot she may have you can deal with later, but you can't deal with anything if your dead.

 

Besides, she is my LI 90% of the time and I love the possibilities that could arise from such a decision. Far more epic than going the Jesus route and being like every other Greywarden that died killing Arch Demons. The Blight will happen again. No stopping it. You'll never hunt down ever single Darkspawn bound by the call of the still buried old gods. Who knows what this kid could do or could be. Fascinating... 

[Deadly dwarf]

As I said is a previous post, none of my Wardens were ever suicidal. Willing to die if necessary of course, but it wasn't necessary. With the option of the DR or sacrificing Loghain/Alistair available, why do the US? Yes, Morrigan might have some terrible plot in mind for the kid one day. I always assumed the Warden would chase after Morrigan for this very reason, if no other. To find out what Morrigan's plan ultimately was. The immediate crisis is what must be dealt with. Whatever plot she may have you can deal with later, but you can't deal with anything if your dead.

 

 

The decision to do the DR in order to save your Warden's life is a rational but selfish one.  Not only is Morrigan not a "people person," she seems to be very much an "anti-people person."  Think of all the decisions you make during the game for which Morrigan weighs in.  In order to get a 100% from Morrigan, you have to not help everybody you run into, you have to desecrate the Sacred Ashes (betraying the trust of the Guardian and all to win the favor of a nutty cult), sacrifice the lives of imprisoned city elves in order to get some magical bauble that the Tevinter slaver would make for you, etc.  This is the person you are going to trust with a child with the soul of an Old God?  She doesn't even seem to care whether the Blight is stopped at all.  If you opt to do the US, she abandons you and the rest of the team. Not a person to be trusted...

 

There are a finite number of Old Gods and thus a finite number of future Blights.  By doing the US, you guarantee that there is one less Old God/AD.  By doing the DR, you create the possibility that one of these Old Gods/AD will make a repeat performance in the future, thus negating the sacrifices of all those who fought to kill it the first time around.

 

As to Morrigan being your warden's LI, people frequently make bad decisions when they fall for someone of questionable character.  Such mistakes are understandable but still mistakes all the same.

[Ghost Gal]

A Warden's job is to stop the Blight. A Blight happens when an Old God is corrupted by the taint and twisted into an Archdemon. 

 

One way to handle it (the only way the Wardens have been handling it since the beginning) is to destroy the soul of the Archdemon.

 

But Morrigan presents another way; a way to remove the taint without destroying the soul. No taint, no Archdemon, no Blight. It still gets the job done of stopping the Blight, just in a different way. (It's not so different from choosing to help Connor by destroying the demon in the Fade rather than just killing the boy. No demon, no possession, no abomination. It still gets the job done, just in a different way.)

 

It's kept vague whether this will have negative consequences in the long run or not. It just depends on who you trust and what you believe. If you trust Morrigan and/or Flemeth, it can seem like a good idea. If you don't trust them, it can seem like a bad idea. If you trust that the soul of an Old God is not inherently destructive or genocidal and/or can be taught to be good by being raised in the body of a child, it can seem like a good idea to preserve the soul even though you got rid of the taint. If you believe the Chantry's demonization of the Old Gods and think it'll be evil/destructive/go after the world anyway, sparing the soul can seem like a bad idea. On the other hand, Solas and Flemeth both hint in DAI that the Old Gods are actually vital to Thedas in some mysterious way and that destroying all the souls of the Old Gods will actually hurt Thedas even more in the long run, so that can seem like a bad call.

 

Regardless, I don't see an issue. Since the Warden's only duty is to stop the Blight, accepting the DR still does the job, stops the Blight, and performs your duty. It's just another way of doing it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

A Warden's job is to stop the Blight. A Blight happens when an Old God is corrupted by the taint and twisted into an Archdemon. 

 

One way to handle it (the only way the Wardens have been handling it since the beginning) is to destroy the soul of the Archdemon.

 

But Morrigan presents another way; a way to remove the taint without destroying the soul. No taint, no Archdemon, no Blight. It still gets the job done of stopping the Blight, just in a different way. (It's not so different from choosing to help Connor by destroying the demon in the Fade rather than just killing the boy. No demon, no possession, no abomination. It still gets the job done, just in a different way.)

 

 

 

Regardless, I don't see an issue. Since the Warden's only duty is to stop the Blight, accepting the DR still does the job, stops the Blight, and performs your duty. It's just another way of doing it.

As I've previously pointed out, the US is the known way of stopping the Archdemon. By your own admission, it has worked four times. Causing it not to be an Archdemon is another option, if we assume it will work. And you do have to assume: if Morrigan has a proof-of-concept to show you, she somehow fails to do so. (There was a fan-theory that Flemeth was such a proof-of-concept, and it had me half convinced, but she apparently was not.) So, in addition to the point you concede where the Warden doesn't know what the long term consequences are, if you're not metagaming you kinda have to take it on faith that you know what the short term consequences are.

 

Which makes it similar to walking all the way to the Circle Tower for the supplies to exorcise Connor without killing Isolde, and kinda similar to gambling that one mage can handle the demon in its home turf regardless of how the mage got there: you're risking other people (not just yourself) to try and gain a perfect solution when a less perfect solution can be had more safely if only you're willing to do something you don't want to do. If you're just metagaming, fine, no problem, but the Warden has no real reason to think this will work out well. And while if the Warden was gambling with their own life as the stakes in order to save the Old God's life I'd call it selfless, they're gambling to save themself and the Old God in a way that can for all they really know if you think about it lead to the Blight continuing. It's not just two lives at stake: it's basically all of them.

 

It's kept vague whether this will have negative consequences in the long run or not. It just depends on who you trust and what you believe. If you trust Morrigan and/or Flemeth, it can seem like a good idea. If you don't trust them, it can seem like a bad idea. If you trust that the soul of an Old God is not inherently destructive or genocidal and/or can be taught to be good by being raised in the body of a child, it can seem like a good idea to preserve the soul even though you got rid of the taint. If you believe the Chantry's demonization of the Old Gods and think it'll be evil/destructive/go after the world anyway, sparing the soul can seem like a bad idea. On the other hand, Solas and Flemeth both hint in DAI that the Old Gods are actually vital to Thedas in some mysterious way and that destroying all the souls of the Old Gods will actually hurt Thedas even more in the long run, so that can seem like a bad call.

 

And as for this question in DAI: well, if you're not metagaming then things we learn two games later aren't relevant to what decision the Warden should make, but if you are metagaming, what do they actually say? I am aware that they imply they don't want it, but do they say anything that implies there will be worse consequences than an ancient being of magic being permanently destroyed? Because that alone seems to be, under the belief system Flemeth taught Morrigan, a serious problem. In fact, Morrigan represents killing dragons as a bad thing because they are powerfully magical beings, and if I remember correctly she says that this is true regardless of how dangerous they are. And one can imagine she learned this worldview from Flemeth. I'm willing to agree with them that the Old Gods should be preserved, if and only if they tell me their rationale and give a better one than "magic should be preserved regardless of the danger."

 

As for Solas, I'm just ignoring what he thinks is best entirely until given reason to do otherwise. His view of what should happen is that the Veil is eliminated, which is apparently implied to be going to kill a whole bunch of people and is outright stated will allow spirits to manifest wherever. That sounds like the sort of thing that causes demons to pop up at random places and "[empty] the... countryside of everyone who's not sleeping in their armor."

 

Tl;dr: I don't know that any of them can be trusted to want to preserve the Old Gods for the reason of preventing bad things from happening, when in each of their cases we have reason to believe that they want to preserve and encourage magic whether or not bad things happen as a result of it.

[Aren]

I'd been rather under the understanding that everyone knew mages were potential time bombs. Isolde in particular I'd expect to know that since she's a member of the educated upper class.



She says that it could be construed as blood magic. So it might just be something a Thedasian would call blood magic without working the same way.

Not that that's going to stop me from imagining that she used her fingernails on whichever Warden did the DR, you understand.

Is not an allegory is litteraly blood magic otherwise Morrigan would have not been bother to describe it as such.
Is blood magic used in combination with the taint thus make the ritual a Dark ritual.

You can call that selfish if you want. I call it survival instinct.

I call it selfish one do not gamble the fate of everyone for just one life, killing Loghain/Alistair is survival instinct not the dark ritual.

What are you punishing old gods for?



The blight does end.




I'd rather eliminate the darkspawn.

1) Seriously? Those beasts instructed the magister of old with their magic and were responsible for the creation of the Empire where slavery was a common thing.
Not to mention the fact that they are those who brought the magisters in the black city and the one who call the darkspawns with their calling.
Soul destruction is their fitting punishment.


2) Of course and Flemeth is very happy about it right?
One thing is to end the blight and one thing is to end the blight with a DR who give power boost to elven gods.
Those wardens who allowed her this power boost are no less responsible than Morrigan and they are still ignorant about of what the all mother intend to do.


3) Good luck, you kill 5 darkspawns and in the meantime on the other corner of the world a broodmother is generating thousands of them.

[Aren]

As I said is a previous post, none of my Wardens were ever suicidal. Willing to die if necessary of course, but it wasn't necessary. With the option of the DR or sacrificing Loghain/Alistair available, why do the US?

...

See now i agree completly with this
1) The warden is far more valuable than Loghain and Alistair and DAA and DAI prove this.

2) AListair is the senior warden while Loghain is a disgraced traitor who need redemption so again the US is out of place.

The DR however is to me unreasonable i can't just live in paranoia for what Flemeth will do or Morrigan will do or as for what the child will become or worse if the darkspawn will try to hunt him to create again the AD, there are simply too many problems with the DR for no tangible reward (sorry but i do not care enough for Alistair and Loghain to summon chtulu)

Ultimatly without it i lose nothing.

[Aren]

Going back to the original question -- and after having thought about it through several playthroughs -- I have to say that doing the DR is definitely a selfish act (even if understandable). It requires you to have blind faith in Morrigan and what she intends to do with this child who has the soul of an Old God. (Trust Morrigan? What could possibly go wrong?) Given her unwillingness to discuss those details, a responsible Warden should reject it out of hand. No doubt Riordan would tell you to do just that if you were allowed to talk to him about it. I'm surprised Alistair doesn't object to the DR as much as he objects to allowing Loghain into the Grey Wardens. For all you know, doing the DR may result in the Blight resuming again later.

To me, it is amazing that Bioware takes it for granted that people will do the DR just the same. I would've expected a bit more drama for a warden choosing to do the US. Final conversations with the companions should be more dramatic given the warden knows his/her fate and would be expected to hint at it, especially to Leliana if she is your warden's love interest. You would expect the death scene to be more dramatic. Instead.... Taking the DR route is the route more fully developed.

I agree with you thus why i rejected it, my warden is just too responsible to do that in blind fate for a witch of the wilds.
Alistair believe in the GW ideals he can be convinced because player agency otherwise realistically he would reject that regardless of what the warden want.

[ModernAcademic]

Going back to the original question -- and after having thought about it through several playthroughs -- I have to say that doing the DR is definitely a selfish act (even if understandable). 

 

From the point of view of higher beings who understand the magic behind the ritual and the need to preserve the Old Gods, the Warden is being selfish by refusing to undergo the ritual, since he's putting the world in grave danger.