From the point of view of higher beings who understand the magic behind the ritual and the need to preserve the Old Gods, the Warden is being selfish by refusing to undergo the ritual, since he's putting the world in grave danger.
They can bloody well explain that to him instead of judging him for doing the thing that makes sense in the context of what he knows.
Edit: And seriously: where are you and Shiara getting that?
It's an interesting question. Yes it's somewhat selfish but it also seems like a win-win. Some would argue it's too dangerous. I don't know what role this takes in Inquisition, not having played it yet, (I will so no spoilers please) but a true sequel to Origins, rather than "other adventures in Thedas" like DA2 and Inquisition, would focus on that.
They can bloody well explain that to him instead of judging him for doing the thing that makes sense in the context of what he knows.
Edit: And seriously: where are you and Shiara getting that?
Then why are people judging poorly the Wardens who undergo the DR at all? Being a selfish act or a conscientious one is a matter of perspective and personal opinion. It depends on your understanding of magic and spirituality in Thedas, your perception of duty as a Warden and many other issues that are hardly easy to categorize using simplistic labels such as selfish, altruistic, good, evil, etc.
The dude back there has come to the conclusion the DR is selfish. Another player thinks it's the opposite. But are there Wardens that underwent the DR for selfish reasons? Sure! Just as there are Wardens that chose to make the Ultimate Sacrifice because they wanted to be remembered by Thedas as a hero, which is, ironically, another selfish reason as well.
That's the beauty of BW games: the freedom of choice is so great that most of its elements, from the player's motivations to the end result, are ultimately unfathomable.
About the other thing you said:
Uhn...I don't know the lady you speak of. She doesn't even know my name, nor I hers. I can only speak for myself in my posts.
I may have liked one or two posts she wrote, but that's just it. I usually like posts based on their content and the quality of the argument, not on any level of friendship I have/expect to have with someone else.
If you're upset about the thread, may I give a harmless suggestion? Avoid reading it for a couple of days. I'm serious. When I'm too hot headed, I usually avoid the Forum for a week. It's enough to help me feel better.
Then why are people judging poorly the Wardens who undergo the DR at all? Being a selfish act or a conscientious one is a matter of perspective and personal opinion. It depends on your understanding of magic and spirituality in Thedas, your perception of duty as a Warden and many other issues that are hardly easy to categorize using simplistic labels such as selfish, altruistic, good, evil, etc.
The dude back there has come to the conclusion the DR is selfish. Another player thinks it's the opposite. But are there Wardens that underwent the DR for selfish reasons? Sure! Just as there are Wardens that chose to make the Ultimate Sacrifice because they wanted to be remembered by Thedas as a hero, which is, ironically, another selfish reason as well.
That's the beauty of BW games: the freedom of choice is so great that most of its elements, from the player's motivations to the end result, are ultimately unfathomable.
About the other thing you said:
Uhn...I don't know the lady you speak of. She doesn't even know my name, nor I hers. I can only speak for myself in my posts.
I may have liked one or two posts she wrote, but that's just it. I usually like posts based on their content and the quality of the argument, not on any level of friendship I have/expect to have with someone else.
If you're upset about the thread, may I give a harmless suggestion? Avoid reading it for a couple of days. I'm serious. When I'm too hot headed, I usually avoid the Forum for a week. It's enough to help me feel better.
Oh, you'd meant the forumites when you said "higher beings" and referenced knowing how the ritual worked? I'd thought you were referencing Shiara Lavellan's theory, and more specifically saying that Flemeth, Morrigan, and Solas think the Warden is selfish for inviting disaster by not sparing the Old God.
If you need a refresher, Shiara posits that Flemeth, Morrigan, and Solas seem to know something about the powers and role of the Old Gods (and more specifically of a disaster that their absence would cause) that they weren't telling, which none of them adequately explained to the Warden before the DR despite Morrigan having an excellent opportunity, Solas being able to tell them in the Fade, and such a thing being important information that would help the Warden make a better decision. What I was saying (based on my misunderstanding of your post) was that if those three think the Warden is selfish for sentencing the Old God to death in such a circumstance, maybe they should have actually explained the situation.
But seriously, is there any evidence that the three of them know anything like this? I asked Shiara, but I don't remember her answering. If there is, I'd feel better about the fact that I'm absolutely not practicing what I preach here than I currently do,
(Also, thanks for the advice, but I think I'm fine. I was more rolling my eyes at the hypothetical Morrigan, Flemeth, and Solas than at any of the forumites.)
A Warden's job is to stop the Blight. A Blight happens when an Old God is corrupted by the taint and twisted into an Archdemon.
One way to handle it (the only way the Wardens have been handling it since the beginning) is to destroy the soul of the Archdemon.
But Morrigan presents another way; a way to remove the taint without destroying the soul. No taint, no Archdemon, no Blight. It still gets the job done of stopping the Blight, just in a different way. (It's not so different from choosing to help Connor by destroying the demon in the Fade rather than just killing the boy. No demon, no possession, no abomination. It still gets the job done, just in a different way.)
It's kept vague whether this will have negative consequences in the long run or not. It just depends on who you trust and what you believe. If you trust Morrigan and/or Flemeth, it can seem like a good idea. If you don't trust them, it can seem like a bad idea. If you trust that the soul of an Old God is not inherently destructive or genocidal and/or can be taught to be good by being raised in the body of a child, it can seem like a good idea to preserve the soul even though you got rid of the taint. If you believe the Chantry's demonization of the Old Gods and think it'll be evil/destructive/go after the world anyway, sparing the soul can seem like a bad idea. On the other hand, Solas and Flemeth both hint in DAI that the Old Gods are actually vital to Thedas in some mysterious way and that destroying all the souls of the Old Gods will actually hurt Thedas even more in the long run, so that can seem like a bad call.
Regardless, I don't see an issue. Since the Warden's only duty is to stop the Blight, accepting the DR still does the job, stops the Blight, and performs your duty. It's just another way of doing it.
I don't know. Vital to whom exactly? For Thedas or for themselves?
Let's say it is vital for Thedas. In what way? How can a soul of an Old God can possibly save Thedas?
On the other hand, we still don't know the nature of the Old Gods except for Solas and Flemeth. They have the knowledge and what's to stop them from using the soul for their own personal gain/s?
I don't know. Vital to whom exactly? For Thedas or for themselves?
Let's say it is vital for Thedas. In what way? How can a soul of an Old God can possibly save Thedas?
On the other hand, we still don't know the nature of the Old Gods except for Solas and Flemeth. They have the knowledge and what's to stop them from using the soul to a weapon of some sort?
All valid questions, but the Warden would have no way of knowing any of this during Origins in any case. The only information they have is what Duncan, Riordan and Alistair have given them concerning what's (supposedly) necessary to stop Blights, which involves one Warden dying in order to kill the AD. The DR is something that, as far as we know, hasn't been tried before, and while Morrigan seems to believe it will work, it's hard to be sure she knows this for 100% certain. However, there is also the question of what happens when all the Old Gods have been slain. Darkspawn don't simply appear out of nowhere, after all; they appear to exist separately from the Old Gods/Archdemons, and we likely can't just expect them to go peacefully underground when the last Archdemon has been slain.
With that said, the Warden has no proof that the DR will work and save all surviving Wardens. So in that sense, and because it's a gamble, it is a selfish act. However, making the Ultimate Sacrifice means the Warden is committing suicide, or ordering one of their fellow Wardens to do so - which, while a noble sacrifice made for the (presumed) good of Thedas, can also be a selfish act. It's a tough call.
Oh, you'd meant the forumites when you said "higher beings" and referenced knowing how the ritual worked? I'd thought you were referencing Shiara Lavellan's theory, and more specifically saying that Flemeth, Morrigan, and Solas think the Warden is selfish for inviting disaster by not sparing the Old God.
<snip>
You missed my point.
I'll consider you're under stress and ignore your post.
The decision to do the DR in order to save your Warden's life is a rational but selfish one. Not only is Morrigan not a "people person," she seems to be very much an "anti-people person." Think of all the decisions you make during the game for which Morrigan weighs in. In order to get a 100% from Morrigan, you have to not help everybody you run into, you have to desecrate the Sacred Ashes (betraying the trust of the Guardian and all to win the favor of a nutty cult), sacrifice the lives of imprisoned city elves in order to get some magical bauble that the Tevinter slaver would make for you, etc. This is the person you are going to trust with a child with the soul of an Old God? She doesn't even seem to care whether the Blight is stopped at all. If you opt to do the US, she abandons you and the rest of the team. Not a person to be trusted...
There are a finite number of Old Gods and thus a finite number of future Blights. By doing the US, you guarantee that there is one less Old God/AD. By doing the DR, you create the possibility that one of these Old Gods/AD will make a repeat performance in the future, thus negating the sacrifices of all those who fought to kill it the first time around.
As to Morrigan being your warden's LI, people frequently make bad decisions when they fall for someone of questionable character. Such mistakes are understandable but still mistakes all the same.
Just want to correct your position about Morrigan, haven't read how others might've answered. Morrigan isn't really 'of questionable character' so much as she was just brainwashed by her upbringing (which really was a harsh way of pushing pragmatism, isolation, and power for Flemyth's sake, not Morrigan's). Those are Flemyth's rules, not Morrigan's character. You can break that down over the course of the game as either a lover or bestie. Morrigan's actual character is reasonable, socially reserved, inquisitive and fanciful, which is why she resents her upbringing so much. You can easily get 100% with her while helping everyone you meet, doing none of those negative things you mention. She's got the best potential arc in the series. Yes she'll react negatively, but typically to the tune of 1-3 points when you explain your position. Cracking her shell and overcoming Flemyth's influence is the great draw in her story. Love breaking down those walls. Morrigan appreciates a positive relationship with the Warden more than any other character, I think, and she's bluntly, almost compulsively honest throughout. Morrigan never gives you a reason to distrust her. It's true you can sleep with her early, and she has ulterior motives at that point, but it also weighs on her, which is why she'll cut a love path Warden off at a certain point, and why she approaches you honestly at the DR junction. She doesn't have to. She's not disloyal by nature, even though she is distrustful. She is impulsive, evidenced by her theft of the forbidden vanity mirror as a child, which also manifests in how she pursues the well of sorrows so strongly without really knowing what it is, among other things. But she's not really ultimately selfish. She will self sacrifice for her loved ones and the potential greater good. She just has a little more knowledge than most, and as the saying goes, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
Edit: I think this all applies to Morrigan's reasons for going through with the DR herself as well. I mean, she pretty well spells it out for her part. She knew something was coming, she didn't fully understand what. She spent half the game trying to decipher her mother's grimoire, after all. She makes it clear this is part of what she's been working at understanding. She knows Flemyth doesn't die so reliably, she's some kind of ancient terror (from her perspective), and she would likely show up again when least expected. And in the final calculous, she wants to save her friend/lover's life when it comes down to it. So she very clearly lays out the why from her perspective. It's just a question of whether you trust her or not, and whether you care about what happens to her later or not. She even tells you exactly what she plans to do with the child: raise it for her own. Prepare them to defend themselves. Not risk losing them all against the AD. If you refuse the DR from Morrigan's perspective, you're betraying her trust and friendship, which is why she'll leave and look out for herself. Then Witch Hunt rolls around, and she'll flat out take you with her if you choose. Again, it's a rorschach test. Do you trust Morrigan or not? How much does your Warden care about her and the baby? Enough to leave behind whatever they've achieved since Denerim? She's not actually keeping any secrets from the Warden.
There's too many unanswered variables for the Dark Ritual. Morrigan never tells you what would happen if the boy starts dying of the taint in his blood while having the old god's soul. She never tells you what it's for other than the idea that it existing has intrinsic value. I've always preferred making Alistair king, recruiting Loghain and throwing Loghain at the archdemon. That way my Warden and Alistair both live.
It's an interesting question. Yes it's somewhat selfish but it also seems like a win-win.
If you refuse the DR from Morrigan's perspective, you're betraying her trust and friendship, which is why she'll leave and look out for herself. Then Witch Hunt rolls around, and she'll flat out take you with her if you choose. Again, it's a rorschach test. Do you trust Morrigan or not? How much does your Warden care about her and the baby? Enough to leave behind whatever they've achieved since Denerim? She's not actually keeping any secrets from the Warden.
There's too many unanswered variables for the Dark Ritual. Morrigan never tells you what would happen if the boy starts dying of the taint in his blood while having the old god's soul. She never tells you what it's for other than the idea that it existing has intrinsic value. I've always preferred making Alistair king, recruiting Loghain and throwing Loghain at the archdemon. That way my Warden and Alistair both live.
Same ending for me with the sole difference that i believe that Alistair do not deserve the throne,at best he deserve a big bottle of wine in DAII.
I trusted Morrigan's intentions, I do think that she believed in the inherent good of preserving Urthemiel's soul. But... this was never the problem, you were told even back when you confronted Flemeth that she assumed a lot more than what she actually knew. Rejection was never about thinking she had bad intentions, it was about thinking that she was playing with forces she didn't really understand.
There's too many unanswered variables for the Dark Ritual. Morrigan never tells you what would happen if the boy starts dying of the taint in his blood
What taint in his blood?
What taint in his blood?
Presumably Diaspora questions Morrigan's assertion that the ritual removes the Taint, or at least believes the Warden would be justified in doing so.
Ultimately...yes.
While most of my Wardens romance Morrigan and do trust her, the PC is deliberately given next to no information on which to make an informed decision. I've heard the rumors everyone has, that the DR was rushed at the end from a production standpoint, but I feel, that info should have been doled out based your relationship with Lady M, if you took the time to romance her the PC should have at least been given some inclination as to what she is planning; even simple innuendo that could have led to serious debates.
But its a forced leap of faith, make a decision based on knowing the DR originated with Flemeth, who has an ominous history and whom you may have, or may not have killed, and is proposed by Morrigan, who... lets be honest, romanced or not, she's usually on the wrong side of moral decisions the PC has to make. It was just too forced... live with ambiguous repercussions or die with honor and end the debate.
Originally DAO had promised 2 years of DLC, which turned out to be about little more than 8 months. I have little doubt there was more to the DR choice originally planned than, wait... 10 game years and 2 games later, there's a weird speaking little boy who is about as threatening as a glazed donut.
Originally DAO had promised 2 years of DLC, which turned out to be about little more than 8 months. I have little doubt there was more to the DR choice originally planned than, wait... 10 game years and 2 games later, there's a weird speaking little boy who is about as threatening as a glazed donut.
What taint in his blood?
From the Warden? That's part of why the soul goes to the child.
Not like the Loghain redemption which is the ultimate win-win for me and is not even selfish on the contrary it inspire several positive sentiments(the redemption,the regain of honor,the humility of the warden).Loghain final speech to the archdemon was totally worth it.
Morrigan leave the Warden because she is selfish and cannot afford to go against her core principles,she is just too coward to have the courage to kill one of her precious "wonders" that she found as to be more important than the Warden and the fate of the entire Thedas regardless of relationship.It is not the warden who betray her it's her who betray the warden since it is her the one who deceived and lied and attempted the use of manipulation to gain the archdemon soul and even if she was already on debt with the warden of 3 favors (2 grimoires and the battle against Flemeth) she leave not before to have insulted the warden.
I'm pretty sure I did one playthrough where I had Loghain do it but I don't remember the speech. However, while it makes practical sense to do it, I never felt Loghain deserved redemption. He deserved to have his head separated from his shoulders.
As for Morrigan, she clearly cares about the Warden if you become her friend or lover, but she has a goal and plan that is more important to her and she doesn't want her feelings to jeopardize them.
Ultimately...yes.
While most of my Wardens romance Morrigan and do trust her, the PC is deliberately given next to no information on which to make an informed decision. I've heard the rumors everyone has, that the DR was rushed at the end from a production standpoint, but I feel, that info should have been doled out based your relationship with Lady M, if you took the time to romance her the PC should have at least been given some inclination as to what she is planning; even simple innuendo that could have led to serious debates.
But its a forced leap of faith, make a decision based on knowing the DR originated with Flemeth, who has an ominous history and whom you may have, or may not have killed, and is proposed by Morrigan, who... lets be honest, romanced or not, she's usually on the wrong side of moral decisions the PC has to make. It was just too forced... live with ambiguous repercussions or die with honor and end the debate.
Originally DAO had promised 2 years of DLC, which turned out to be about little more than 8 months. I have little doubt there was more to the DR choice originally planned than, wait... 10 game years and 2 games later, there's a weird speaking little boy who is about as threatening as a glazed donut.
Oh, no, I don't want more information. That's necessary for something like the ending choices of Mass Effect 3 where you're making an ultimate decision that impacts everything going forward and everything is totally new as opposed to connected to anything in the story.
The DR is vague on purpose because it's alternative is certain death. It's a gamble or at least has unforseen consequences. This is essential to it being the type of choice it is. With too much information, it would be more of a no-brainer one way or the other.
Which clearly isn't a GW attitude.I'm pretty sure I did one playthrough where I had Loghain do it but I don't remember the speech. However, while it makes practical sense to do it, I never felt Loghain deserved redemption. He deserved to have his head separated from his shoulders.
As for Morrigan, she clearly cares about the Warden if you become her friend or lover, but she has a goal and plan that is more important to her and she doesn't want her feelings to jeopardize them.
Which clearly isn't a GW attitude.
To be the judgers and care about "your" justice which is death penalty instead to be concerned for the best interest of the nation possibly of the entire continent with an extra resource.
As for Morrigan regardless of what she has to say in regard of "her caring" for the warden to me her actions speak for her more than her words.
Not only she witholds informations and deceived for an entire year with the sole purpose of using manipulation at the right time while using the warden as a tool against Flemeth , if the DR is refused she also leave not before to tell to the male warden who romanced her that she hope for his ultimate regret in case of his survival.
This supposed to be someone who cares?
Not for me.
Those words pretty much assasinate any claim that she care for the warden, she cared yes but only so long as the warden was his personal minion in doing her wishes.
Oh, it would absolutely be putting personal feelings ahead of the mission. However, I was addressing the specific comment about Loghain getting redemption.
On Morrigan, I'd have to go check the line you mention as I don't remember it, but her feelings are second to her mission. Hey, the two topics are linked!
There's too many unanswered variables for the Dark Ritual.
That alone is why any discussion on the matter will be limited to circular arguments.
(That happens not only with the DR, but also with the Old Gods, the taint, the Elven Pantheon, the Magisters who entered the Black City and any other element BioWare presented since the first game of the DA franchise and which has left loose ends.)
Three games later and we still don't know what the taint is...
Oh, it would absolutely be putting personal feelings ahead of the mission. However, I was addressing the specific comment about Loghain getting redemption.
On Morrigan, I'd have to go check the line you mention as I don't remember it, but her feelings are second to her mission. Hey, the two topics are linked!
?
First of all,we don't know that our days are numbered at the very beginning. Duncan kept his secrets damn well,and we can only learn that much later from Alistair!! And yes,I want my Warden to live on to do many many many great things in his already numbered years. So why die when you can live,and live as a good Warden that are able to help those defenseless people. What's selfish to me is when you can live on and continue to help other people but you choose to die.
The Warden, i mean the character have sacrifice too much already, so DR is not a selfish act, hell she have going through hell where no one want ever go in...
Just think, the player character is just someone who have dark backstory to begin with...whole family murdered, living in slum as criminal, living under oppression, boyfriend dead, husband dead, being exiled from royalty into monster nest.....it just a sad life....then got tainted and living with a curse...carrying a burden to save everyone...become delivery girl, poster girl, solving everyone mess....while everyone in Thedas enjoying their life, pursue everything that is possible, don't care about the world is about to be destroyed and some of them even make The Warden as an enemy and want to kill her
For me, DR is not selfish, The Warden did more than what required for her to do, and it was not her duty to begin with, it is just because she and Alistair are the last two Grey Warden in Ferelden....so why not searching for a 'live happily ever after" if possible?
Everyone can love and hate The Warden without knowing what she's going through for everyone sake....
That alone is why any discussion on the matter will be limited to circular arguments.
(That happens not only with the DR, but also with the Old Gods, the taint, the Elven Pantheon, the Magisters who entered the Black City and any other element BioWare presented since the first game of the DA franchise and which has left loose ends.)
Three games later and we still don't know what the taint is...
While I want more answers in a later game, I like that unknown factor for the DR. If too much is known, the choice becomes obvious. All those loose threads is why I found it strange that DA2 went completely away from all of those things and DAI followed 2 rather than Origins.
Loghain final speech in Denerim and also his words at Redcliffe are very touching.My problem with Alistair is that he didn't wanted to kill Loghain because he thought that he was still a danger for the mission or for any of his other crimes but because of his twisted idea that he killed Duncan.Alistair after all is more than willing to help Sten and talk with him while knowing that this Qunari killed an entire family and children included and now he has problem with Loghain, because
Because Loghain betrayed Cailan, Duncan, and everyone else in that valley, leading to their deaths. He's also tried to kill the Warden and Alistair. There is every reason to want to kill Loghain. The question is which is more important. Much like why I didn't take Zevran along many times, you may fear Loghain betraying you. It's less likely than Zevran doing it though. So I understand where Alistair is coming from, even if the mission should take priority.
As for Alistair's attitude toward Sten, it's different when it's not people you know. That's just how our minds work.
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