1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Aren]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because Loghain betrayed Cailan, Duncan, and everyone else in that valley, leading to their deaths. 

How  exactly did he  betrayed Duncan and Cailan at Ostagar?

He was the one who told to Cailan to remain with him and not on the front line so he hardly premeditated Cailan's death for some "higher plan" but Cailan didn't listened to him (it's a conversation that happen right before they discuss their plan with Duncan)

 As a general it was in his right to make a decision based on his view on the battlefield and after that the protagonist fire that beacon too late he made his decision, he even spared more or less half of the army from an inevitable failure at Ostagar and Cailan and Duncan couldn't have been saved anymore at that point..

In fact you can't accuse Loghain of any of these things with success at the Landsmeet because those aren't valid arguments for all of the nobility.

with those accusations you only let him win the landsmeet.

[Natureguy85]

 

 

 

 

 

How  exactly did he  betrayed Duncan and Cailan?

First he was the one who told to Cailan to remain with him and not on the front line but Cailan didn't listened to him and second as a general it was in his right to make a decision based on his view on the battlefield(after that the protagonist fire that beacon, too late), he even spared more or less half of the army from an inevitable failure at Ostagar.

In fact you can't accuse Loghain of any of these things at the Landsmeet because those aren't valid arguments for all of the nobility and they don't work at all to prove him wrong and the warden right.

 

 

So what? You're right that Cailan didn't follow Loghain's advice, but he doesn't have to. It wasn't Loghain's "right" to make that decision because he is beneath the King. He is supposed to follow orders. You don't make a major issue of it at the Landsmeet because the Banns already know about it. Teagan accused Loghain of abandoning Cailan early in the game. However, it's not as though it isn't brought up.

 

Now you can argue the merits of Loghain's decision based on the situation or outcome, but that has nothing to do with any of this.

[Aren]

So what? You're right that Cailan didn't follow Loghain's advice, but he doesn't have to. It wasn't Loghain's "right" to make that decision because he is beneath the King. He is supposed to follow orders. You don't make a major issue of it at the Landsmeet because the Banns already know about it. Teagan accused Loghain of abandoning Cailan early in the game. However, it's not as though it isn't brought up.

 

Now you can argue the merits of Loghain's decision based on the situation or outcome, but that has nothing to do with any of this.

As a general he is allowed to make decisions in authonomy especially when the plan they created with the consent of the king went disrupted (the beacon)

He isn't supposed to kill countless of soldiers of the army just to try to save a king who threw himself to certain death for glory without lose his face and credibility as a general as well as the entire army.

At the landsmeet the warden is allowed to throw those accusations on Loghain but they do not work(he will win the confrontation if the warden use such accusations) because there are several bann there who don't blame him for Ostagar at all and agree with him.

His crimes are evident (forced regency,imprisonment of the queen,slavery,poisoning,ecc..) but none of that concern what he did at Ostagar because what he did there isn't a crime from what he should be addressed for..

[Aren]

What's selfish to me is when you can live on and continue to help other people but you choose to die.

Unable to follow this logic.

The dark ritual is a pure gamble and as a GW it is to be considered as a selfish act since GW aren't supposed to presuppose the future.

Am i supposed to trust FLemeth,Morrigan or Urthemiel and their intentions?

Why i should do that?

Especially if i can use the redemption ending without virtually lose anything.

 

[springacres]

Especially if i can use the redemption ending without virtually lose anything.

Except that by recruiting Loghain, you've lost Alistair, so technically you have lost something.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Except that by recruiting Loghain, you've lost Alistair, so technically you have lost something.

If you put him on the throne, you technically still have him. In fact, if you know you want him on the throne and aren't particular about the rest of it, putting him there alongside Anora and sparing Loghain means Alistair's not Cailaning about on the front lines.

[springacres]

If you put him on the throne, you technically still have him. In fact, if you know you want him on the throne and aren't particular about the rest of it, putting him there alongside Anora and sparing Loghain means Alistair's not Cailaning about on the front lines.

There is that, but is it really worth the trade-off of, most likely, essentially losing Alistair's friendship (permanently, as far as the character knows) because you spared the one person he hated most in Ferelden? Assuming, of course, that your character likes Alistair well enough for that to be a consideration and has no other reasons to spare Loghain.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

There is that, but is it really worth the trade-off of, most likely, essentially losing Alistair's friendship (permanently, as far as the character knows) because you spared the one person he hated most in Ferelden? Assuming, of course, that your character likes Alistair well enough for that to be a consideration and has no other reasons to spare Loghain.

Is it worth your friend hating you to make it less likely he'll die in battle? Arguably.

[springacres]

Is it worth your friend hating you to make it less likely he'll die in battle? Arguably.

Maybe, if you're not going to make him king.  If he becomes king and hates you because you spared Loghain... well, I'm not sure I'd want to find out how vindictive he could be.  (Although I might have to try that on one of my playthroughs, because why not?)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Maybe, if you're not going to make him king.  If he becomes king and hates you because you spared Loghain... well, I'm not sure I'd want to find out how vindictive he could be.  (Although I might have to try that on one of my playthroughs, because why not?)

Well, he's mostly only blindly vindictive against Loghain. Whether he'd stoop to vengeance against you is a hard question. Though at any rate, doing this at all requires Anora to be on the throne too, and she can serve as a counterbalance. (If only because the Warden is provably politically useful after putting her on the throne. If you were going to bring up the two times she can possibly "betray" you, they're both because she perceived you to be working against her best interests, and a Warden who did put her on the throne probably didn't get either of those "betrayals." A Warden who puts her on the throne alongside Alistair probably perceived her to be entirely on the level, and she probably will be as far as her dealings with that Warden.)

[springacres]

I'm not sure my Wardens would trust Anora all that much, but it's certainly true that she would want a Warden alive if that Warden had supported her.  And that's probably a fair point about Alistair, too.

 

Then again, my POV as far as sparing Loghain goes may be tainted by the fact that my two completed playthroughs were both elven Wardens who saw red after the Alienage and refused to do anything that might be considered pardoning him for that.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Then again, my POV as far as sparing Loghain goes may be tainted by the fact that my two completed playthroughs were both elven Wardens who saw red after the Alienage and refused to do anything that might be considered pardoning him for that.

That's an entirely fair point, but also a separate point.

[Aren]

Except that by recruiting Loghain, you've lost Alistair, so technically you have lost something.

To properly lose something i have first to like or love the thing and it wasn't the case with AListair since my warden didn't liked him.

In order to have both Alistair and Loghain i could have went to the route of the marriage(it can be done to have both at the post coronation) but as i said i never wanted to put Alistair on power(the crown was better into the head of my warden) nor i wanted to spare the old god but didn't wanted to kill AListair since it is who Loghain deserve the honor of soul destruction..

[springacres]

To properly lose something i have first to like or love the thing and it wasn't the case with AListair since my warden didn't liked him.

In order to have both Alistair and Loghain i could have went to the route of the marriage(it can be done to have both at the post coronation) but as i said i never wanted to put Alistair on power(the crown was better into the head of my warden) nor i wanted to spare the old god but didn't wanted to kill AListair since it is who Loghain deserve the honor of soul destruction..

Very true.  I wondered if that was your Warden's perspective.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Upon further introspection, my Warden decided to not do the Dark Ritual. The simple reason is that Morrigan does not explain to him why is the Old God soul worth saving and more importantly, does not explain what she plans to do with the child with the Old God soul.

 

She simply gives vague, confusing and weird answers. I mean sure, self preservation is a good thing but you cannot expect someone to go through a ritual to save the soul of a powerful being without telling them more about it.

 

With regards to Loghain, the game does give you sufficient information on whether you should let him die or to make him a Warden. The game details the crimes he had committed, his skill as a fighter and also demonstrates, via things such as Riordan's explanations and recruits like Daveth, that Grey Wardens take whatever help they can get. Additionally, there is the possibility that he may not survive The Joining and there is the fact that Loghain is old which means it is a waste to simply kill him since he will die a natural death in 2 to 2.5 decades. So there are reasons to recruit him.

 

With regards to the Dark Ritual, Morrigan tells the Warden next to nothing about why Urthemiel's soul is worth saving (Is she going to study it ? Is she going to keep it locked up in a Circle Tower for research purposes ? Is she going to lock it up in a box and sell it to Xenon the Antiquarian to be on display ?) and what she plans to do with the child (Merely use him as a tool / a pawn ? Raise him to become a super mage ? Use him to destroy the Darkspawn  completely ?)

 

Now you can see Morrigan's offer as a form of sperm donation but when the woman personally requesting the sperm doesn't tell you what she intends to do with the offspring, you have to be suspicious and question her motives.

 

As for the Archdemon itself, Loghain made the killing blow. He is the older Warden (age wise) which means he has a lot less time to be out fighting Darkspawn (Riordan did say that it is Warden tradition that the senior Wardens make the killing blow).

[Illegitimus]

 

As for the Archdemon itself, Loghain made the killing blow. He is the older Warden (age wise) which means he has a lot less time to be out fighting Darkspawn (Riordan did say that it is Warden tradition that the senior Wardens make the killing blow).

 

You make the decision about Loghain before you make the decision about the Dark Ritual.  Nor is it possible for the character to know that it will in fact be Loghain doing the deed.  After all, the actual plan was for Riordan to do it.  You and the guy are the back-up plan.  And Alistair is the back-up plan for the back-up plan if you recruited Loghain.  

[Bayonet Hipshot]

You make the decision about Loghain before you make the decision about the Dark Ritual.  Nor is it possible for the character to know that it will in fact be Loghain doing the deed.  After all, the actual plan was for Riordan to do it.  You and the guy are the back-up plan.  And Alistair is the back-up plan for the back-up plan if you recruited Loghain.  

 

I did not. During the playthrough, the idea was for Riordan to kill the Archdemon (since he is the oldest of the three and he volunteered) and failing that, either Alistair or the main character. But with Riordan dead during the Denerim siege and Alistair not taking part in the assault at Fort Drakon, the responsibility of slaying Urthemiel fell to the main character or Loghain. Since Loghain was the older Warden due to his age, he made the killing blow.

[Illegitimus]

I did not. During the playthrough, the idea was for Riordan to kill the Archdemon (since he is the oldest of the three and he volunteered) and failing that, either Alistair or the main character. But with Riordan dead during the Denerim siege and Alistair not taking part in the assault at Fort Drakon, the responsibility of slaying Urthemiel fell to the main character or Loghain. Since Loghain was the older Warden due to his age, he made the killing blow.

 

You made the decision to keep Loghain alive so he could be the Sacrifice before Morrigan makes the offer of the Ritual.  

[Willowhugger]

Yes, it's selfish.

But it's also probably a better idea to redeem the Old Gods than destroy them.

It's also a favor for a friend/loved one.

[Aren]

Yes, it's selfish.

But it's also probably a better idea to redeem the Old Gods than destroy them.

It's also a favor for a friend/loved one.

Only thing that i know of this dragon is that so long that the taint exist he can always return to be the archdemon his existence in any form is a threat for the world.

If they wont an old god so badly they better start to dig in the deep roads with the darkspawn instead  to use  my efforts and the efforts of the army for their own ends,and even if i romance Morrigan i'm simply unable to see as appealing to let her use my warden as an imbecile puppet

two grimoires,FLemeth dead,a golden mirror,plenty of jewelry and awesome gears and a son...girl you have to be content with this instead of ask always more and more and more and more to my poor warden to teh point of want to use him to gain an archdemon soul.......

 

[Illegitimus]

 

Only thing that i know of this dragon is that so long that the taint exist he can always return to be the archdemon 

 

 

 

Since he's no longer bound and unconscious he'd no longer be emitting the distress call that draws the spawn.

[Aren]

Upon further introspection, my Warden decided to not do the Dark Ritual. The simple reason is that Morrigan does not explain to him why is the Old God soul worth saving and more importantly, does not explain what she plans to do with the child with the Old God soul.

 

She simply gives vague, confusing and weird answers. I mean sure, self preservation is a good thing but you cannot expect someone to go through a ritual to save the soul of a powerful being without telling them more about it.

 

 

 

With regards to the Dark Ritual, Morrigan tells the Warden next to nothing about why Urthemiel's soul is worth saving (Is she going to study it ? Is she going to keep it locked up in a Circle Tower for research purposes ? Is she going to lock it up in a box and sell it to Xenon the Antiquarian to be on display ?) and what she plans to do with the child (Merely use him as a tool / a pawn ? Raise him to become a super mage ? Use him to destroy the Darkspawn  completely ?)

 

 

Morrigan's motives for wanting to preserve the archdemon soul are resolved in DAI and it has confirmed my first impression ,that she want to preserve things regardless of how dangerous or counterproductive they are because she was raised under a certain belief system.

Spoiler

She admit in DAI to not even know what an Old god is

Flemeth taught to Morrigan  to value power and that there is a great deal of power in some ancient artifacts/"wonders"  however for her own reasons she never offered to her daughter the true knowledge or a further motivation to preserve beyond that.

Spoiler

Funny is when in DAI Flemeth asked to Morrigan as to why she want to preserve what once was and she was unable to answer,then FLemeth replied that it was because she taught to her to act in this way and at the same time she mention that she is doing this because "things happened that were never meant to happen" and to avenge Mythal.

Flemeth has a  motivation and she was so ruthless to use her own daughter for her goal.

The point is that i'm incredibly astonished by this type of behaviour,how can someone endanger his/her life for a dream that has no idea of certainty behind it?

 

[The Baconer]

Why should it be considered selfish? A Warden is already consigned to die via megacancer. 

[Aren]

Why should it be considered selfish? A Warden is already consigned to die via megacancer.

Because it can be seen as a gamble for the entire world especially with our beloved Evanuris who will love to go on gnam gnam mode on the old god powers.

[The Baconer]

Because it can be seen as a gamble for the entire world especially with our beloved Evanuris who will love to go on gnam gnam mode on the old god powers.

 

From a meta perspective, destroying all of the Old Gods is a gamble in itself, because no one knows what kind of consequences it will bring.