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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

From a meta perspective, destroying all of the Old Gods is a gamble in itself, because no one knows what kind of consequences it will bring. 

Do we have any reason to think there will be worse consequences than there being no more Old Gods? This isn't Faerun. "Divine" seems in this setting to be something other people call you rather than something you are.

 

I've heard this argument before, but I don't think there's anything to base it on besides a guess and the last person to raise it wasn't forthcoming when I asked for more. Is there more?

[The Baconer]

Do we have any reason to think there will be worse consequences than there being no more Old Gods? This isn't Faerun. "Divine" seems in this setting to be something other people call you rather than something you are.

 

I've heard this argument before, but I don't think there's anything to base it on besides a guess and the last person to raise it wasn't forthcoming when I asked for more. Is there more?

 

No, nobody knows what's going to happen in either event. It was more of a counter to the hypothetical scenario of feeding Old God essences to the Evanuris.

 

The state of divinity seems like a non-sequitur, at least to me. Even if the Old Gods were "legitimately" divine, it wouldn't grant any intrinsic worth to their continued existence; that characteristic is irrelevant in my mind. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No, nobody knows what's going to happen in either event. It was more of a counter to the hypothetical scenario of feeding Old God essences to the Evanuris.

 

The state of divinity seems like a non-sequitur, at least to me. Even if the Old Gods were "legitimately" divine, it wouldn't grant any intrinsic worth to their continued existence; that characteristic is irrelevant in my mind. 

I'm not sure it works as a counter, since I can see why the "feeding Old God essences to the Evanuris" scenario came up (the scene in the Fade with Flemeth coupled with her post-game epilogue appearance seems to indicate it, though I'm not getting more specific unless someone cares enough to start busting out spoiler tags) but see nothing in-game to support the "Old Gods are necessary" argument.

 

Edit: I will note, however, that there are some settings where killing "divine" beings truly is dangerous because they're tied to the world in some way that makes whatever they're the god of weaker or non-existent if you kill them. The argument that the Old Gods can't be safely disposed of seems to assume that the Old Gods are such beings, which would justify sparing them to avoid screwing things up for large numbers of people. But I don't think Faerun works that way, and I don't think we have any reason to believe it does. And if there is such an effect, I'm curious how the world is still standing after they were all sealed, five of them were corrupted, and from all we can tell most of them were killed.

[The Baconer]

I'm not sure it works as a counter, since I can see why the "feeding Old God essences to the Evanuris" scenario came up (the scene in the Fade with Flemeth coupled with her post-game epilogue appearance seems to indicate it, though I'm not getting more specific unless someone cares enough to start busting out spoiler tags) but see nothing in-game to support the "Old Gods are necessary" argument.

 

Edit: I will note, however, that there are some settings where killing "divine" beings truly is dangerous because they're tied to the world in some way that makes whatever they're the god of weaker or non-existent if you kill them. The argument that the Old Gods can't be safely disposed of seems to assume that the Old Gods are such beings, which would justify sparing them to avoid screwing things up for large numbers of people. But I don't think Faerun works that way, and I don't think we have any reason to believe it does. And if there is such an effect, I'm curious how the world is still standing after they were all sealed, five of them were corrupted, and from all we can tell most of them were killed.

 

It's not an argument that the Old Gods are necessary or worth keeping, but that we don't actually know if killing them all will have the effect that the surface world wants it to. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It's not an argument that the Old Gods are necessary or worth keeping, but that we don't actually know if killing them all will have the effect that the surface world wants it to. 

You mean because of the effect that they have on the darkspawn, and the darkspawn might all awaken? Or am I missing the point again?

[Illegitimus]

 

 

Edit: I will note, however, that there are some settings where killing "divine" beings truly is dangerous because they're tied to the world in some way that makes whatever they're the god of weaker or non-existent if you kill them. 

 

Bah.  The real problem is that the Old Gods song keep most of the darkspawn from doing anything except digging.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bah.  The real problem is that the Old Gods song keep most of the darkspawn from doing anything except digging.  

Hasn't that ship already sailed by the time we're deciding what to do with the one they've already dug up, though?

[The Baconer]

You mean because of the effect that they have on the darkspawn, and the darkspawn might all awaken? Or am I missing the point again?

 

The effect that they have on the Darkspawn. I don't think they will all awaken, though. I really hope they wouldn't.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The effect that they have on the Darkspawn. I don't think they will all awaken, though. I really hope they wouldn't.

The problem is that we have no idea whether or not they can still effect the darkspawn after being forced into mortal bodies the way Urthemiel can be. And we don't know that it's a good thing if the Old Gods can still effect the darkspawn in their current state: before, the darkspawn to a large degree stayed in the Deep Roads due to the song. If it still works the same way, and they have to seek out the Old God Souls on the surface, where will the darkspawn go?

[The Baconer]

The problem is that we have no idea whether or not they can still effect the darkspawn after being forced into mortal bodies the way Urthemiel can be. And we don't know that it's a good thing if the Old Gods can still effect the darkspawn in their current state: before, the darkspawn to a large degree stayed in the Deep Roads due to the song. If it still works the same way, and they have to seek out the Old God Souls on the surface, where will the darkspawn go?

 

It would depend on whether or not they emit the song the same way the dragon forms did. It is very strongly implied that there is an Old God beneath the Western Approach, and that one emitted a physically audible sound (as in, not exclusive to Darkspawn and Wardens) that also caused tremors. Kieran certainly doesn't have that quality.  

 

In any case, this has trailed off from the original question of the Dark Ritual being "selfish". I think it is not, at least going by the connotations that I associate with the word. 

[Aren]

The whole Archdemon confuses me even more. He is supposed to be a tainted/corrupted OldGod.
You kill him and his soul jumps to another tainted body. But why a TAINTED body?
Does the taint corrupt the very soul? If only the body is corrupted by the taint, then the soul of the Old god should be free to go anywhere...right?
So is the soul itself tainted (?? very big implications here, for all grey Wardens too ??) or was the OldGod always like that?
How can Morrigan clense the taint?
How can she be trusted?
She isn't a moral person to begin with, deliberately hides very important stuff from you, and she is supposed to be trusted with raising a god child????

Hell no.

[Aren]

The problem is that we have no idea whether or not they can still effect the darkspawn after being forced into mortal bodies the way Urthemiel can be. And we don't know that it's a good thing if the Old Gods can still effect the darkspawn in their current state: before, the darkspawn to a large degree stayed in the Deep Roads due to the song. If it still works the same way, and they have to seek out the Old God Souls on the surface, where will the darkspawn go?

Not all darkspawns in the deep roads are seeking Old gods, we know little if nothing about what they do.
Some of them are in the surface and don't give a damn about the old gods, while others are searching them.
Also the calling is not emitted by them only as those like the Nightmare demon and Corypheus can do the same thing.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

There is also another reason to be highly against the Dark Ritual. Making Kieran shoulder the burden of housing the Old God soul without him having any say on it is no different from Dorian's parents wanting to force him to be someone he is not and his father was willing to use blood magic to make that happen. Recall that Morrigan and the Warden could potentially engage in a blood magic ritual to force their offspring to lead a life that he did not ask for.  In many ways, it is no different from parents who treat their children as merely a tool to carry out their dashed hopes and wishes instead of a sentient being that should choose their own path someday.

 

That is probably the biggest reason of me being against the Dark Ritual. I was the firstborn of an Asian family, the son who was shouldered with all the wishes and hopes of his parents and as such, was never really allowed to choose a life path he wanted until I rebelled and we had massive arguments where I won. I do not want an innocent child to be shouldered with the burden of carrying the soul of a powerful ancient being without him having any choice in it, much in the same way I do not want anyone to be raised and driven to study solely to be a medical doctor that gets married, gets a big house and pops out the typical 2.5 kids and have hobbies that his parents had to approve and control, has to eat food that his parents had to approve and control, etc.

 

More importantly, I also do not see how one can choose to remain in love in Morrigan and not do the Dark Ritual. She effectively betrays you by leaving her love at the eve of his most important battle because the man she claims to love, the very same man that she could not manipulate, has some shred of ethics. It did not matter if you helped her by killing Flemeth and retrieving the real Grimoire for her. It did not matter if you were able to see past her acerbic nature and her other flaws and loved her. What mattered to her was the Urthemiel's Soul and when she is denied access to it, she throws up a tantrum and leaves.

[Aren]

Demons: The child of a mage who has the soul of a dragon god? Every demon in the Fade would see this as prime opportunity.
This was also one of the risks of the Dark ritual

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Demons: The child of a mage who has the soul of a dragon god? Every demon in the Fade would see this as prime opportunity.
This was also one of the risks of the Dark ritual

It's entirely possible the dragon god will throw out anything else that might try to possess this child.

 

Or it was, anyway.

[Illegitimus]

Demons: The child of a mage who has the soul of a dragon god? Every demon in the Fade would see this as prime opportunity.
This was also one of the risks of the Dark ritual

 

Doesn't sound very plausible.  He'd eat them.  

[Aren]

Doesn't sound very plausible. He'd eat them.

Who?
The child who was not even able to control his own nightmares?
Or the soul?
It depends on the power level of the demon some of them had the power to submit the OGB, like the Nightmare.
And who knows how many powerful demon like the Nightmare are in the fade (if not more powerful) waiting for powerful hosts like the Old gods

[Qun00]

No argument is worse than "If you just trusted Morrigan you would've done the DR".

Sorry, but even if my bestest friend in the whole world told me to jump off a bridge I wouldn't do it. Caring about someone doeesn't mean blindly agreeing with everything they say.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No argument is worse than "If you just trusted Morrigan you would've done the DR".

Sorry, but even if my bestest friend in the whole world told me to jump off a bridge I wouldn't do it. Caring about someone doeesn't mean blindly agreeing with everything they say.

I don't think that argument follows. It seems to equate caring about someone to trusting them. Merely caring about someone has nothing to do with going with their suggestions. However, if you trust someone, then when they assert something's a good idea and there's no proof otherwise you might consider doing it. I'm rather under the impression that that's what trust means. Of course, trusting someone enough to be willing to hand her an Old God is arguably a bit of a stretch: there are degrees of trust, and while by this point Morrigan has earned some trust you can argue she hasn't earned this much.

[Ghost Gal]

Something just occurred to me.

 

It's by no means certain that you'll all survive the battle with the Archdemon, yet you NEED at least one Grey Warden near it during the killing blow for it to stay dead. You only have three Grey Wardens in Ferelden--four if you're desperate/charitable enough to pick Loghain Mac Backstabber. You never know what could happen. While death is a huge possibility for any of you, what happens if all Grey Wardens are somehow killed before the Archdemon? (Again, night before the battle, you never know.) Even if one of your companions or allies or brothers in arms manages to finish the job after you fall, no Grey Wardens around means it'll just jump to the nearest darkspawn, reform into another dragon, and it'll be a never-ending Blight.

 

Morrigan being alive and nearby with a Fetus Old God Soul Fly Trap could be just an extra safety net to help ensure victory.

 

(Or rather, just another precaution against the Archdemon being able to tear up the countryside should the worst happen and your Grey Wardens fall before Morrigan in battle. Saving Ferelden from getting blighted off the map is worthy of setting up more precautions against.)

 

Just something to think about.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Something just occurred to me.

 

It's by no means certain that you'll all survive the battle with the Archdemon, yet you NEED at least one Grey Warden near it during the killing blow for it to stay dead. You only have three Grey Wardens in Ferelden--four if you're desperate/charitable enough to pick Loghain Mac Backstabber. You never know what could happen. While death is a huge possibility for any of you, what happens if all Grey Wardens are somehow killed before the Archdemon? (Again, night before the battle, you never know.) Even if one of your companions or allies or brothers in arms manages to finish the job after you fall, no Grey Wardens around means it'll just jump to the nearest darkspawn, reform into another dragon, and it'll be a never-ending Blight.

 

Morrigan being alive and nearby with a Fetus Old God Soul Fly Trap could be just an extra safety net to help ensure victory.

 

(Or rather, just another precaution against the Archdemon being able to tear up the countryside should the worst happen and your Grey Wardens fall before Morrigan in battle. Saving Ferelden from getting blighted off the map is worthy of setting up more precautions against.)

 

Just something to think about.

This is a good thought, but I think I remember Word of Gaider to the effect that it still needs to be a Grey Warden who strikes the final blow either way.

[Qun00]

The DR makes the presence of Grey Wardens unnecessary. The Old God soul will seek out Morrigan's womb whether she was near the archdemon or not.

[Illegitimus]

The DR makes the presence of Grey Wardens unnecessary. The Old God soul will seek out Morrigan's womb whether she was near the archdemon or not.

 

 

I don't believe that's true. I think it still has to pass through a warden first.  If it doesn't then the taint won't be cleansed.  

[Qun00]

I don't believe that's true. I think it still has to pass through a warden first.  If it doesn't then the taint won't be cleansed.

The ritual works because the taint in the baby lures in the Old God soul.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The DR makes the presence of Grey Wardens unnecessary. The Old God soul will seek out Morrigan's womb whether she was near the archdemon or not.

What I'm saying is that although that's how it should work, it apparently doesn't work that way. Although I suppose the characters in question don't know that, so there's that.