1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Aren]

Something just occurred to me.

 

It's by no means certain that you'll all survive the battle with the Archdemon, yet you NEED at least one Grey Warden near it during the killing blow for it to stay dead. You only have three Grey Wardens in Ferelden--four if you're desperate/charitable enough to pick Loghain Mac Backstabber. You never know what could happen. While death is a huge possibility for any of you, what happens if all Grey Wardens are somehow killed before the Archdemon? (Again, night before the battle, you never know.) Even if one of your companions or allies or brothers in arms manages to finish the job after you fall, no Grey Wardens around means it'll just jump to the nearest darkspawn, reform into another dragon, and it'll be a never-ending Blight.

 

Morrigan being alive and nearby with a Fetus Old God Soul Fly Trap could be just an extra safety net to help ensure victory.

 

(Or rather, just another precaution against the Archdemon being able to tear up the countryside should the worst happen and your Grey Wardens fall before Morrigan in battle. Saving Ferelden from getting blighted off the map is worthy of setting up more precautions against.)

 

Just something to think about.

Of course if we forget how many beasts the warden killed by that point of the game....some of them worst than the Archdemon and possibly even on solo

The DR makes the presence of Grey Wardens unnecessary. The Old God soul will seek out Morrigan's womb whether she was near the archdemon or not.

Imply that the DR has somehow a strategic advantage is a bit of an assumption Morrigan doesn't use this argument because it isn't true, with or without it only a Grey warden can kill the archdemon.

Form what i remember from Gaider explanation (link is not working anymore however) it had something to do with the fact that the archdemon essence in order for the dark ritual to work it need first to enter into the body of a GW and absorbe part of it's resistance

(yes it is always absorbed by the GW who kill it first, the scene is the same for all the achievements), without a GW the soul will simply reach another darkspawn vessel.

That's why the child act like a beacon,it act like that only if the archdemon soul it has absorbed part of the GW resistance first otherwise the archdemon essence is unable to distinguish between Morrigan and the thousands of darkspawn at Denerim whom taint is far more storng than Morrigan's child.

So from what i understood the archdemon essence need first to be "altered" then it is pulled to Morrigan.

[Illegitimus]

The ritual works because the taint in the baby lures in the Old God soul.

 

But I think it still needs filtering through a warden's body. 

[Aren]

What I'm saying is that although that's how it should work, it apparently doesn't work that way. Although I suppose the characters in question don't know that, so there's that.

You mean the Warden?

Because i doubt Flemeth withholds this kind of informations from Morrigan.

Morrigan is secretive during the DR in fact unless you play a female warden she doesn't even reveal to you that senior Warden are unsuitable for the ritual.

[Qun00]

It seems difficult to RP a reason that doesn't come from self-interest.

Even the idea that the Warden wants to live so he can help rebuild the Order in Ferelden doesn't make much sense. It is pretentious to assume they won't be able to accomplish that without you.

[Natureguy85]

It seems difficult to RP a reason that doesn't come from self-interest.

Even the idea that the Warden wants to live so he can help rebuild the Order in Ferelden doesn't make much sense. It is pretentious to assume they won't be able to accomplish that without you.

 

Since when does wanting to help equal thinking the entire thing hinges on you?

[Qun00]

That is simply what it is when you use this as a strong reason why your death must not happen.

And if you don't believe there is such urgency in keeping yourself alive, as in they *need you*... well, then why do it at all?

Because it would be nice to participate?

[Natureguy85]

That is simply what it is when you use this as a strong reason why your death must not happen.

And if you don't believe there is such urgency in keeping yourself alive, as in they *need you*... well, then why do it at all?

Because it would be nice to participate?

 

Acknowledging that they need every Warden, which includes you, is not pretentious in the least. A goal might be accomplished with less help but it might take more time or cost more. "Not absolutely essential" does not equal "not helpful."

[Remmirath]

I do think it's highly likely to be done for selfish reasons. Certainly, that is why my only Warden to do it thus far made that choice; not only did he not want to die, he couldn't take the feeling that by not choosing to do the ritual he would be dooming one of the others to die in his place (assuming it wasn't him, obviously). Of course, that doesn't mean that I consider it unreasonable. It may not be the best thing to do from a moral standpoint, but acting to preserve one's own life or the lives of one's close friends is certainly an understandable reason to do something.

 

However, motivations are very complex, and it's entirely possible there is some non-selfish reason for doing it that I'm not bringing to mind. Ah, well, there's one I've thought of already -- if the Warden agrees with what Morrigan is doing, and is actually participating in the ritual for most of the same reasons that she is, it wouldn't be selfish. Or, potentially, if they're in a romance with Morrigan and are doing it purely for her, although one could also argue that's somewhat selfish as well.

[Natureguy85]

I do think it's highly likely to be done for selfish reasons. Certainly, that is why my only Warden to do it thus far made that choice; not only did he not want to die, he couldn't take the feeling that by not choosing to do the ritual he would be dooming one of the others to die in his place (assuming it wasn't him, obviously). Of course, that doesn't mean that I consider it unreasonable. It may not be the best thing to do from a moral standpoint, but acting to preserve one's own life or the lives of one's close friends is certainly an understandable reason to do something.

 

On that note, I would argue that there is a difference between selfishness and self interest. The latter is doing something in your own best interests and I don't think something is selfish unless it harms others.

[Aren]

he couldn't take the feeling that by not choosing to do the ritual he would be dooming one of the others to die in his place

Which was suppsoed to be Riordan the man who was already going to die anyway.....

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Which was suppsoed to be Riordan the man who was already going to die anyway.....

That loophole depends on a plan surviving first contact with the enemy.

[Aren]

That loophole depends on a plan surviving first contact with the enemy.

The DR also work on the assumptions that with every GW  dead  this one that need to be saved is surviving alone long enough to kill the archdemon......

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The DR also work on the assumptions that with every GW  dead  this one that need to be saved is surviving alone long enough to kill the archdemon......

The DR works on the assumption that at least one Warden will survive long enough to kill the Archdemon. Which is a questionable assertion, but one that the country is already betting on fairly massively and one that the PC won't live to regret assuming the truth of if it turns out the assumption was an error. So we might as well go with it. And to be honest it's not nearly as questionable as your hope that Riordan in specific will survive even if we don't metagame and realize he won't.

 

You're also really reaching to assume that the one surviving Warden (in a situation where two of the three are dead) is alone. There's the rest of the party, and the rest of the army. The only thing that Loghain, Alistair, Riordan, and the PC have that sets them apart from the companions is the capacity to perma-kill the Archdemon; incredible badassery isn't unique to the Wardens, and the companions arguably show more of it than Riordan. And if the rest of the army is useless individually, zerg swarms are a useful tactic with soldiers you can't otherwise use.

 

Not to say there aren't arguments against the DR, but this was a really poor one.

[Aren]

The DR works on the assumption that at least one Warden will survive long enough to kill the Archdemon. Which is a questionable assertion, but one that the country is already betting on fairly massively and one that the PC won't live to regret assuming the truth of if it turns out the assumption was an error. So we might as well go with it. And to be honest it's not nearly as questionable as your hope that Riordan in specific will survive even if we don't metagame and realize he won't.

 

You're also really reaching to assume that the one surviving Warden (in a situation where two of the three are dead) is alone. There's the rest of the party, and the rest of the army. The only thing that Loghain, Alistair, Riordan, and the PC have that sets them apart from the companions is the capacity to perma-kill the Archdemon; incredible badassery isn't unique to the Wardens, and the companions arguably show more of it than Riordan. And if the rest of the army is useless individually, zerg swarms are a useful tactic with soldiers you can't otherwise use.

 

Not to say there aren't arguments against the DR, but this was a really poor one.

 

Our argument is how strong the temptation of the dark ritual is if all it does is save the life of the Grey Warden if the Grey Warden lands the final blow. 

And I am arguing it is very weak. If you have Alistair/Loghain (assuming that you  don't care about their fate or of Ferelden or about humans) There is a very reasonable chance that Alistair/Loghain does not die, since you've overcome an insane amount of obstacles. 

You could have killed two dragons, a pride demon, a super-golem, a broodmother, not to mention effectively an army of soldiers, werewolves and darkspawn plus enough abominations to put the templars to shame.

Basically, if you suppose you as the Warden has awesome odds to survive, you have to suppose the same applies to your companion. 

And if you think Alistair/Loghain has a huge chance to die, then so do you.

So what I am saying is that her actual potential payoff is only if you are left alone, and the odds of that mattering are astronomicaly low in either possible case. 

What I am saying is simple: Alistair and Loghain have no more of a risk to die than the Warden. If the risk for them dying is enormous, it is the same for the Warden.

So the dark ritual in that case is nothing but for the special scenario where the Warden lives and Alistair or Loghain dies, which is incredibly unlikely beacuse all signs point to both dying. And if the odds of the Warden living are high, then the chance of the other warden doing the same is higher.

The argument is not a poor  one is absolutely coherent since it work with and without metagaming

 

[Natureguy85]

So the dark ritual in that case is nothing but for the special scenario where the Warden lives and Alistair or Loghain dies, which is incredibly unlikely beacuse all signs point to both dying. And if the odds of the Warden living are high, then the chance of the other warden doing the same is higher.

The argument is not a poor  one is absolutely coherent since it work with and without metagaming

 

 

How so? I got the impression that it didn't matter which Warden landed the final blow. The soul of the Arch demon goes to the child. That said, I never tried having Alistair do the Ritual. Does he finish off the Arch Demon in that case? When I had my Warden do the DR, I assumed he killed the Arch Demon simply because he was the PC and main character and there was no point in debating who would do it or giving the player a choice.

 

So the DR allowed both my Warden and Allistair to live.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

 

Our argument is how strong the temptation of the dark ritual is if all it does is save the life of the Grey Warden if the Grey Warden lands the final blow. 

And I am arguing it is very weak. If you have Alistair/Loghain (assuming that you  don't care about their fate or of Ferelden or about humans) There is a very reasonable chance that Alistair/Loghain does not die, since you've overcome an insane amount of obstacles. 

You could have killed two dragons, a pride demon, a super-golem, a broodmother, not to mention effectively an army of soldiers, werewolves and darkspawn plus enough abominations to put the templars to shame.

Basically, if you suppose you as the Warden has awesome odds to survive, you have to suppose the same applies to your companion. 

And if you think Alistair/Loghain has a huge chance to die, then so do you.

So what I am saying is that her actual potential payoff is only if you are left alone, and the odds of that mattering are astronomicaly low in either possible case. 

What I am saying is simple: Alistair and Loghain have no more of a risk to die than the Warden. If the risk for them dying is enormous, it is the same for the Warden.

So the dark ritual in that case is nothing but for the special scenario where the Warden lives and Alistair or Loghain dies, which is incredibly unlikely beacuse all signs point to both dying. And if the odds of the Warden living are high, then the chance of the other warden doing the same is higher.

The argument is not a poor  one is absolutely coherent since it work with and without metagaming

Is the argument that the Warden who used the DR is the only one who can kill the Archdemon without it failing? Because we see perfectly well that that's not the case if Alistair or Loghain does the Ritual and the PC strikes the final blow. Which is kinda metagame, but since Morrigan wants the PC to succeed you'd expect her to warn the PC if it was otherwise.

 

Or is the argument that the PC doesn't care if Alistair/Loghain dies, and can achieve the same result as the DR by just sacrificing him? Because that's a questionable argument, especially if the PC is romancing Alistair.

[Aren]

How so? I got the impression that it didn't matter which Warden landed the final blow. The soul of the Arch demon goes to the child. That said, I never tried having Alistair do the Ritual. Does he finish off the Arch Demon in that case? When I had my Warden do the DR, I assumed he killed the Arch Demon simply because he was the PC and main character and there was no point in debating who would do it or giving the player a choice.

 

 

 

 

2  So the DR allowed both my Warden and Allistair to live.

With the DR they are simply your spare a Grey Warden. 

You missed the point which was about the PC survival only and not about the survival of Alistair and Loghain.

It only matters how likely you think your spare is to live relative to how likely you think the ritual is dangerous. And I am saying that the degree of temptation falls dramatically if the only thing that it does is remove your worry of your spare dying at the cost of saving the life of the archdemon.

Morrigan apparently offers the chance to guarantee life if the other Wardens are dead and this particular Warden survives long enough to kill a dragon single-handedly. It's stupid because of how implausible the one specific outcome where it applies is versus the potential risk. 

 

2

I would think it doesn't matter what Morrigan says.

What I am saying is as the player, you know nothing about what Morrigan is offering. Even if you are a mage, you have no understanding and no one of understanding the process. You are shooting blind and you are potentially commitiing suicide the moment you land the killing blow for "glory"

 

 

 

Is the argument that the Warden who used the DR is the only one who can kill the Archdemon without it failing? 

No.

The argument is about the warden being able to survive even without the need of the dark ritual simply by reasoning on the fact that is unlikely that all the GW will die at Denerim and leave the PC alone thus force the PC to commit the US.

 

 

Or is the argument that the PC doesn't care if Alistair/Loghain dies, and can achieve the same result as the DR by just sacrificing him? Because that's a questionable argument, especially if the PC is romancing Alistair.

Yes is this.

More importantly, there is a difference between caring about Alistair and caring about Alistair enough do die for him or summon Cthulhu.

If the cost is god knows what sort of eldrich abomination, you damn well better really like the person you're risking screwing the world up for. 

 

(which is not my case because the world is far,far more important than Alistair/Loghain.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

With the DR they are simply your spare a Grey Warden. 

You missed the point which was about the PC survival only and not about the survival of Alistair and Loghain.

It only matters how likely you think your spare is to live relative to how likely you think the ritual is dangerous. And I am saying that the degree of temptation falls dramatically if the only thing that it does is remove your worry of your spare dying at the cost of saving the life of the archdemon.

Morrigan apparently offers the chance to guarantee life if the other Wardens are dead and this particular Warden survives long enough to kill a dragon single-handedly. It's stupid because of how implausible the one specific outcome where it applies is versus the potential risk. 

 

2

I would think it doesn't matter what Morrigan says.

What I am saying is as the player, you know nothing about what Morrigan is offering. Even if you are a mage, you have no understanding and no one of understanding the process. You are shooting blind and you are potentially commitiing suicide the moment you land the killing blow for "glory"

 

 

 

No.

The argument is about the warden being able to survive even without the need of the dark ritual simply by reasoning on the fact that is unlikely that all the GW will die at Denerim and leave the PC alone thus force the PC to commit the US.

 

Yes is this.

More importantly, there is a difference between caring about Alistair and caring about Alistair enough do die for him or summon Cthulhu.

If the cost is god knows what sort of eldrich abomination, you damn well better really like the person you're risking screwing the world up for. 

 

(which is not my case because the world is far,far more important than Alistair/Loghain.)

 

Well, that works metagame, but in RP you don't know what's going to happen. As far as you know in RP, an arrow could hit just a little more accurately than the last five hundred that Alistair didn't die of, and just go right through his heart. It's far more likely they'll both die than that only one will, but both of them coming through alive is still sort of a minor miracle that you can't really count on if you're strictly RPing.

 

You can argue that it's worth either Alistair's life or the Warden's life to truly end the threat, and you'd have a point in RP. It might even turn out you're just flatly right depending on where this plot thread goes. But that's a separate argument.

[Natureguy85]

 

With the DR they are simply your spare a Grey Warden. 

You missed the point which was about the PC survival only and not about the survival of Alistair and Loghain.

It only matters how likely you think your spare is to live relative to how likely you think the ritual is dangerous. And I am saying that the degree of temptation falls dramatically if the only thing that it does is remove your worry of your spare dying at the cost of saving the life of the archdemon.

Morrigan apparently offers the chance to guarantee life if the other Wardens are dead and this particular Warden survives long enough to kill a dragon single-handedly. It's stupid because of how implausible the one specific outcome where it applies is versus the potential risk. 

 

2

I would think it doesn't matter what Morrigan says.

What I am saying is as the player, you know nothing about what Morrigan is offering. Even if you are a mage, you have no understanding and no one of understanding the process. You are shooting blind and you are potentially commitiing suicide the moment you land the killing blow for "glory"

 

1) They are no more a spare Warden than before. The Arch Demon needs to die and one of you must land the blow. All the DR means is that the person who does so won't die. You're not explaining how the DR has anything to do with the likelihood of the other surviving. If the Warden dies and Alistair/Loghain lives to kill the demon, they survive because the Warden did the DR. If Alistair/Loghain dies and the Warden strikes the blow, they live. If both survive, they both live. The only way the DR doesn't help is if all Wardens die and then nothing matters.

 

2) Correct but there is no more personal risk than before. You're going in knowing you might have to make that last hit and die. All what you're saying means is that there is a risk that you thought it would work and thus make the strike expecting to survive, but it doesn't and you die where you otherwise would have made the other person do it so they'd die.

[Remmirath]

On that note, I would argue that there is a difference between selfishness and self interest. The latter is doing something in your own best interests and I don't think something is selfish unless it harms others.

 
Indeed. The two are commonly used interchangeably, so I assumed that a least some people in this thread have been doing so.
 

Which was suppsoed to be Riordan the man who was already going to die anyway.....

It's entirely possible that your Warden would rather come up with a way to keep that from happening, too. What if your character is concerned about there being no senior Grey Wardens left in Ferelden, for example? After all, neither they nor Alistair have much idea of what's going on. It could be quite valuable to get at least some good advice about the whole thing, even if Riordan doesn't last more than a year or two after the final battle. Obviously, from the player's perspective, Riordan's clearly a fairly temporary mentor kind of guy -- but there's no reason that your character has to think that way (and I'd argue, it's more likely that they wouldn't).

[Aren]

 It's far more likely they'll both die than that only one will

If Alistair/Loghain die it means the battle is going bad(they are in your group so you can watch over them) and the warden would not survive either to face the archdemon

 There is a very reasonable chance that Alistair/Loghain does not die until you met the archdemon, since you've overcome an insane amount of obstacles with them. Basically, if you suppose you as the Warden has awesome odds to survive, you have to suppose the same applies to them.

Riordan dies because he went on solo against the dragon when he was flying  and he wasn't with the warden.

 

1) They are no more a spare Warden than before. The Arch Demon needs to die and one of you must land the blow. All the DR means is that the person who does so won't die. You're not explaining how the DR has anything to do with the likelihood of the other surviving. If the Warden dies and Alistair/Loghain lives to kill the demon, they survive because the Warden did the DR. If Alistair/Loghain dies and the Warden strikes the blow, they live. If both survive, they both live. The only way the DR doesn't help is if all Wardens die and then nothing matters.

 

 

The point is another.

The point is for a matter of personal survival the warden doesn't need the ritual because is improbable that Alistair/Loghain die before to reach the dragon and leave the warden alone.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

If Alistair/Loghain die it means the battle is going bad(they are in your group so you can watch over them) and the warden would not survive either to face the archdemon

 There is a very reasonable chance that Alistair/Loghain does not die until you met the archdemon, since you've overcome an insane amount of obstacles with them. Basically, if you suppose you as the Warden has awesome odds to survive, you have to suppose the same applies to them.

Riordan dies because he went on solo against the dragon when he was flying  and he wasn't with the warden.

It means that either the battle went badly or they got separated when an ogre punched one or a genlock archer managed to get a shot in at just the right angle to put an arrow through Alistair/Loghain's heart. (Or the Warden's heart, since unless the Warden is a warrior they're probably more lightly armored than Alistair or Loghain.) Assuming that the main characters only take losses if they lose is kinda metagame. My argument doesn't assume that anyone has awesome odds of survival; we're supposed to understand that this is actually dangerous and that there are no guarantees of anything. Any Warden making it to the Archdemon is sort of a minor miracle. Assuming that two do is really pushing it. And that's not even getting into how dangerous the Archdemon fight would be if those involved didn't have plot armor.

 

And even if I conceded this point for some reason, this still requires you to assume that the PC is willing to sacrifice Alistair but wouldn't sacrifice themselves given an out. If the Warden cares about their safety rather than that of others, wouldn't they be more inclined to do the DR?

[Aren]

And even if I conceded this point for some reason, this still requires you to assume that the PC is willing to sacrifice Alistair but wouldn't sacrifice themselves given an out. If the Warden cares about their safety rather than that of others, wouldn't they be more inclined to do the DR?

You could have made Alistair King because you prefer him to Anora, which is very different. And it does not have to be Alistair; it could be Loghain. They are simply your spare Grey Warden.
If Hespith was one of the last 3 living beings that could become brood mothers, saving her untained soul isn't quite the good deed. We don't know whether or not the old god could return as an archdemon again. That is a risk that you're taking with the ritual, provided it does what it is designed to do.
One life (which is even tainted)is not worth imho an old god soul.

[Natureguy85]

The point is another.

The point is for a matter of personal survival the warden doesn't need the ritual because is improbable that Alistair/Loghain die before to reach the dragon and leave the warden alone.

 

 

Right but the DR isn't just about personal survival. It could be to spare the other Warden as well or even so you can make the hit to be a hero and live. It could be because it sounds awesome or because you want to bang Morrigan.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You could have made Alistair King because you prefer him to Anora, which is very different. And it does not have to be Alistair; it could be Loghain. They are simply your spare Grey Warden.
If Hespith was one of the last 3 living beings that could become brood mothers, saving her untained soul isn't quite the good deed. We don't know whether or not the old god could return as an archdemon again. That is a risk that you're taking with the ritual, provided it does what it is designed to do.
One life (which is even tainted)is not worth imho an old god soul.

What does any of this have to do with the argument I actually made? I acknowledge that there are arguments against the DR, and in fact the end of Inquisition's main campaign and the end of Trespasser have me wondering if it might end badly after all. What I'm saying is that depending on Alistair/Loghain surviving to protect you from having to choose between the DR and the US is kinda metagame.