Right but the DR isn't just about personal survival. It could be to spare the other Warden as well or even so you can make the hit to be a hero and live. It could be because it sounds awesome or because you want to bang Morrigan.
And the US could mostly be because I don't care to see the Warden again... not in the half assed way they will do it at least. 
From that perspective everything is metagame.What does any of this have to do with the argument I actually made? I acknowledge that there are arguments against the DR, and in fact the end of Inquisition's main campaign and the end of Trespasser have me wondering if it might end badly after all. What I'm saying is that depending on Alistair/Loghain surviving to protect you from having to choose between the DR and the US is kinda metagame.
From that perspective everything is metagame.
To me is not metagame since i know the ability of those two Gw and i knew they would have been able with the help of the PC to reach the Archdemon.
You're arguing that either both will make it to the final battle or that neither will, and that the Archdemon won't kill either of them before the other kills the Archdemon. I can accept that that's not metagame if you roleplay people willing to bet on a long shot. Not that the Warden isn't already betting on a long shot, since this situation you're railroaded into not fleeing from really does suck, but requiring two Wardens to make it all the way through all of this makes it longer.
From that perspective everything is metagame.
To me is not metagame since i knew the ability of those two Gw and i knew that they would have been able with the help of the PC to reach the Archdemon.
Anything that relies on information that your character wouldn't have is metagaming, yes, by the way the term is typically used in roleplaying games. It's about separating player knowledge from character knowledge.
My character was willing to make the US, but Morrigan talked her out of it. In the end, it was a giant leap of faith, that Elissa could trust Morrigan to do right by the child, since Flemeth didn't.
It is not metagame more likely calculated risks.Anything that relies on information that your character wouldn't have is metagaming, yes, by the way the term is typically used in roleplaying games. It's about separating player knowledge from character knowledge.
The big question is, does your Warden believe there is such a thing as a price too high to pay for ending the Blight? Granted, the DR is no obstacle to that goal but it is also gambling when the decision is made.
My canon Warden let the Architect go in the hopes he is successful in cutting off the Darkspawn from the call of the Old Gods (an Kieran if that was a thing). But he'd also be against Clarel's plan to summon a Demon Army to kill the Old Gods (it's for a reason like that they let Avernus continue his research and they're seeking a cure for the Calling). So make that what you will.
An archdemon is a savage beast with a lot of raw power.
The DR is dangerous because it made the critter even more unpredictable than he was in the archdemon form, since Urthemiel it gain his knowledge and intelligence back and has no more reason to act mindless.
It's now able to use his power into a more effective way(See how it used an Eluvian to enter in the fade).
Plus his powers are added with the one of those Evanuris thus being the perfect substitute for the damn Foci Solas lost the perfect tool to kill everyone since it seems that these entities power can be absorbed by others of their kind.
In short this soul is a dangerous variable that at best can return to be an Archdemon again(another blight) at worse can be used for Flemeth super revenge plans and for the removal of the veil.
I don't see way i should take all these global scale risks for one Gw especially when it is that lunatic of Loghain
Is any of that known to the Warden when the choice is made?
Is any of that known to the Warden when the choice is made?
Savage beast with a lot of power: yes.
More unpredictable: arguably. It's supposed to gain a mind from this. That makes things more unpredictable.
And the risk of a new archdemon is something the Warden could credibly fear. The rest of this does get kinda metagame, and while I do think he's right about where it's going Aren and I might be entirely wrong.
Savage beast with a lot of power: yes.
More unpredictable: arguably. It's supposed to gain a mind from this. That makes things more unpredictable.
And the risk of a new archdemon is something the Warden could credibly fear. The rest of this does get kinda metagame, and while I do think he's right about where it's going Aren and I might be entirely wrong.
Yeah but isn't it unknown what the Old Gods actually are? Are they gods? Are they just dragons? How much power is in the soul and what kind? A lot of an Arch Demon's power comes through its command of the Dark Spawn, its size and strength, and its magical abilities or breath attacks or whatever. What transfers to the human body?
Yeah but isn't it unknown what the Old Gods actually are? Are they gods? Are they just dragons? How much power is in the soul and what kind? A lot of an Arch Demon's power comes through its command of the Dark Spawn, its size and strength, and its magical abilities or breath attacks or whatever. What transfers to the human body?
I consider the dark ritual to be extremely dangerous simply because the warden has reasons to believe that the product of the ritual is an immortal being which has magical knowledge capable to bend the modern world.The only certainty for now is that the only way to kill an old god is when it is an archdemon when it is awakened into another host (Flemeth,OGB) who know if it is killable?In short with the dark ritual Morrigan is asking a ridiculous amount of power in return for one mortal life which is to me a non tempting deal.I don't even know if an awakened old god is still vulnerable to the taint and even if it is killable with some arcane procedureSpoilernobody knows that procedure unless they are ancient beings like this old god and certainly they aren't loyal folks to the modern world because they are mostly Evanuris.
A valid point, but I'd qualify it by saying that literal immortality doesn't seem to exist in this setting. Things can be immune to age and resistant to stabbing, and there are beings capable of self-resurrection, but so far it appears that everyone can die in a way that sticks. The closest thing to an exception to this seems to have been Flemeth, who I think we're meant to understand is now perma-dead. So while it can absolutely be dangerous, if you're afraid that it literally can't die I think you can rest easy. (Well, easier.)
Tl;dr: If one thing in Thedas is certain - if the overarching plot of this series has taught us anything... it's that you can kill anybody.
Bottom line with the DR: Do you trust Morrigan? If you have a male Warden who romanced Morrigan, it is understandable. For any other Warden, it is incomprehensible. SHE DOESN'T LIKE PEOPLE! Her counsel is always to be selfish at the expense of others. Even in the alienage with a warden lover, she thinks accepting the Tevinter mage's offer to create a special rune? (or was it an amulet?) using captured city elves is a good idea. She thinks sacrificing dwarven warriors to the Anvil of the Void is acceptable. She's willing to let Redcliffe be massacred by the undead. The only time she shows empathy for anybody is for Sten in his cage at Lothering. And this, for an individual who massacres a bunch of poor farmers! (Maybe that's why she initially liked him! 
)
So, comes the night before the big battle and she proposes the DR to Allistair and the PC Warden. She tells the Warden he/she won't have to die after all; the child will be unharmed but be born with the soul of the Old God, and no other details. What are the ramifications of a child with the soul of an Old God? She won't tell you; only that she will leave after the battle and no one is to follow her. WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG? Conveniently, you can't consult with Riordan, the only experienced Grey Warden nearby. (For all the Duncan fans out there, what would Duncan have done?) It goes without saying, the senior Grey Wardens would not approve! The obvious risk is that the Blight would resume and you would have to kill him a second time, resulting in more people being killed.
Ultimately, the only logical reason to do the DR is for the Warden's self-preservation, i.e. selfish reasons. Either that or you have the Warden do it because the game expects you to do it! (But that, of course, violates the concept of metagaming.)
More likely the question is do you trust Urthemiel and Flemeth?Bottom line with the DR: Do you trust Morrigan?
Flemet was the wisp of another more powerful being and only the magic of an Evanuris killed her even if i don't even know if it is dead or was a way to perform a possession or was part of her plans.A valid point, but I'd qualify it by saying that literal immortality doesn't seem to exist in this setting. Things can be immune to age and resistant to stabbing, and there are beings capable of self-resurrection, but so far it appears that everyone can die in a way that sticks. The closest thing to an exception to this seems to have been Flemeth, who I think we're meant to understand is now perma-dead. So while it can absolutely be dangerous, if you're afraid that it literally can't die I think you can rest easy. (Well, easier.)
Tl;dr: If one thing in Thedas is certain - if the overarching plot of this series has taught us anything... it's that you can kill anybody.
This young woman doesn't even seem to care about the consequences of her actions since she only said "These powers must be preserved no matter how feared" and there is no logic in this.
This is roughly how I feel about her speech in the Temple of Mythal (which I assume is what you're talking about.)
Frankly, I think the worst part of it might where she says that the death of dragons renders everyone the lesser. They are a threat to civilization. The one in Crestwood killed a guard that had no chance of threatening her, and I think is implied to be eating people who pass by. We know the one in the Blackmarsh was eating people. Those two are either unthinking monsters, which means they should be put down, or sapient beings who are guilty of murder, which would mean they should be either imprisoned or executed if it wasn't so difficult take them into custody to do one of those things. Either way, unless they're a whole lot less typical of dragonkind than we've been allowed to think the world would be a better place if they had stayed extinct. That Morrigan disagrees, and that she doesn't even answer this issue, really does seem to show where her priorities lie.
Flemet was the wisp of another more powerful being and only the magic of an Evanuris killed her even if i don't even know if it is dead or was a way to perform a possession or was part of her plans.
The others were Imprisoned because they were probably too hard to kill in Arlathan and in modern Thedas i don't think someone know the weakness of these ancient beings.
The Evanuris were probably sealed because there were too many of them to kill. Killing any one of them is probably doable if you have the right skills. Mythal was killed, after all. It even seems to have mostly taken. Though I'll grant that counting on the right skills being available is a bit of a gamble. Still, I've already conceded that the creature in question could be dangerous and is worth fearing. I just think that fearing that it might be literally immortal is a bit out there.
That comic doesn't make sense to me since Morrigan is OOC and i'm glad it was not part of the game.I've recently come across this comic written by David Gaider and illustrated by an artist of his choice. It features a scene that was originally intended to be part of the game but was cut out due to limitations.
This is for the scenario where the Warden romanced Alistair and became Morrigan's best friend as well.
http://romeyooo.tumb...lled-dragon-age
I don't know if it makes any real difference to all of you, but it still is some nice insight into this. I also believe it applies to a Warden that romanced Morrigan.
It had always bothered me that her line "That you may live makes me all the more determined to see it done" sounded so icy and emotionless that it seemed more like she was just saying that so you'd give her what she wanted.
I have never understood why the PC was not allowed to consult Riordan?Conveniently, you can't consult with Riordan, the only experienced Grey Warden nearby. (For all the Duncan fans out there, what would Duncan have done?) It goes without saying, the senior Grey Wardens would not approve!
That comic doesn't make sense to me since Morrigan is OOC and i'm glad it was not part of the game.
It seem that Morrigan think the ritual is a bad idea while all she ever wanted from the start was to use a Gw for it.
It cannot be applied to any other scenario other than a female warden in love with Alistair and friend of Morrigan and even there she is OOC for me.
The big question is, does your Warden believe there is such a thing as a price too high to pay for ending the Blight? Granted, the DR is no obstacle to that goal but it is also gambling when the decision is made.
What's funny is that this is the motto Duncan passes on to us and of which Alistair reminds our Warden constantly. Even a darkspawn knows its meaning, better than some Wardens, and has taken action to combat the Blight using what few resources he had available (the Architect in DA: Awakening, not in The Calling).
And yet, I've seen people comment on Youtube absurdities such as: "My Warden died a hero and a good Warden by making the Ultimate Sacrifice rather than taking the easy way out by performing the DR."
But wait. Doesn't the DR end the Blight with the advantage of sparing a Warden's life, so that he/she may continue to fight against the Blight, as is his/her sworn duty? So ending the Blight through the means of killing one Warden is more dutiful than sparing a Warden so that he may train others in the future and continue to serve humanity? Why? Because it's "the traditional way"? Because tradition is noble?
Only if it's the tradition of ignorance. The Archdemon is a magical creature. No one alive today knows how that magic works. The only people who know about such magic are Morrigan and Flemeth. The Wardens know NOTHING about it, so they came up with an imperfect solution, an improvisation, which uses forbidden magic: blood magic. We perform a blood rite willingly, an act that goes contrary to everything we uphold as righteous because it's "a noble sacrifice".
So doing another blood ritual later which is actually based on accurate knowledge about the magic behind the origin of an Archdemon is dirty, is wrong? It's not dutiful because you get to live? Even though the Wardens have been fighting that evil in the wrong way all along due to their deep-seated ignorance about the fundamentals behind how the magic behind the Blight and the Archdemon works?
In the end, what's funny is that no ultimate sacrifice is required at all. That'swhat the game is telling you. That's what the only people who are qualified at all to tell what's true from what's false regarding the taint, the Blight and Archdemons tell the players in the game. And yet some obviously very virtuous people completely missed the point and stubbornly chose to ignore such vital information, simply because it would look bad if my Warden didn't die, didn't do what was expected, even though it's a mistake that's been perpetrated for centuries by every Warden that's ever lived...while bashing other players who believe there's nothing morally wrong in doing the DR, much less of selfish at all.
The DR is simply the right solution for the problem. Dying is not required. In the end, every Warden that made the Ultimate Sacrifice died in vain.
What's funny is that this is the motto Duncan passes on to us and of which Alistair reminds our Warden constantly. Even a darkspawn knows its meaning, better than some Wardens, and has taken action to combat the Blight using what few resources he had available (the Architect in DA: Awakening, not in The Calling).
And yet, I've seen people comment on Youtube absurdities such as: "My Warden died a hero and a good Warden by making the Ultimate Sacrifice rather than taking the easy way out by performing the DR."
But wait. Doesn't the DR end the Blight with the advantage of sparing a Warden's life, so that he/she may continue to fight against the Blight, as is his/her sworn duty? So ending the Blight through the means of killing one Warden is more dutiful than sparing a Warden so that he may train others in the future and continue to serve humanity? Why? Because it's "the traditional way"? Because tradition is noble?
Only if it's the tradition of ignorance. The Archdemon is a magical creature. No one alive today knows how that magic works. The only people who know about such magic are Morrigan and Flemeth. The Wardens know NOTHING about it, so they came up with an imperfect solution, an improvisation, which uses forbidden magic: blood magic. We perform a blood rite willingly, an act that goes contrary to everything we uphold as righteous because it's "a noble sacrifice".
So doing another blood ritual later which is actually based on accurate knowledge about the magic behind the origin of an Archdemon is dirty, is wrong? It's not dutiful because you get to live? Even though the Wardens have been fighting that evil in the wrong way all along due to their deep-seated ignorance about the fundamentals behind how the magic behind the Blight and the Archdemon works?
In the end, what's funny is that no ultimate sacrifice is required at all. That'swhat the game is telling you. That's what the only people who are qualified at all to tell what's true from what's false regarding the taint, the Blight and Archdemons tell the players in the game. And yet some obviously very virtuous people completely missed the point and stubbornly chose to ignore such vital information, simply because it would look bad if my Warden didn't die, didn't do what was expected, even though it's a mistake that's been perpetrated for centuries by every Warden that's ever lived...while bashing other players who believe there's nothing morally wrong in doing the DR, much less of selfish at all.
The DR is simply the right solution for the problem. Dying is not required. In the end, every Warden that made the Ultimate Sacrifice died in vain.
As far as I can tell this doesn't address the idea that the player or his/her Warden might not trust Morrigan with the power of the OGB. Which is rather easy to justify given that her reaction to Caladrius trying to buy elves from you is "'tis a reasonable enough starting offer" and her general "might makes right" policy. No Ultimate Sacrifice is required at all, but not doing one makes her stronger.
^ I pretty much agree, ModernAcademic.
Much like Orzammar dwarves to lyrium, the Grey Wardens are the ones in the best position to study darkspawn and the taint in order to learn more about it, and come up with newer, better ways to utilize it (this includes fighting darkspawn and defeating Archdemons), but they're so stuck in tradition they haven't tried to learn or change anything since inception. It makes sense why the first Grey Wardens did what they did--they were exhausted and desperate from nearly a century of fighting the first Blight, and they made a grasping, patchwork solution to finally kill that bloody dragon. But instead of taking the time their founders didn't have to study new ways of utilizing the taint, fighting darkspawn, defeating Archdemons, every Warden since then has just blindly followed tradition, doing things the way their founders did them just because that's the way their founders did it.
Sacrifice is noble and all, but if you don't have to do it, if there's another solution offered to you, why not take it? The Grey Warden's motto is "stop the Blight at any cost," and if the Dark Ritual stops the Blight without needlessly destroying two souls (the Old God's and Warden's), it's not interfering with your job, it's not interfering with you mission, so go on and do it.
Also, I personally see the DR as an added safety net, because you only have three, maybe four (if you spare Loghain) Wardens in all of Ferelden. If you all fall in battle before reaching or slaying the Archdemon, Ferelden falls. Morrigan is a shapeshifting witch who can (theoretically) turn into a bird and fly away any moment. It doesn't hurt to have a shapeshifting pregnant lady with an Old God Soulcatcher in her belly on standby, just in case you guys fall in battle and some non-Warden has to slay the Archdemon instead. Instead of the Archdemon just jumping from darkspawn to darkspawn because there aren't any Grey Wardens who'll arrive in time to save them (since they're all in Orlais or further away) Morrigan can just hover close to whoever takes the torch of slaying the Archdemon and catch its soul that way.
Then again, a player could make the argument that they don't trust Morrigan or Flemeth, or even an Old God (a patron deity of Tevinter), or what they intend to do with an Old God's Soul (whether the fate they have in store for it might cause more damage for Thedas in the long run), so... player's choice.
The Grey Wardens justify any actions that end the Blight even outright murder if required. So I imagine thy would be more interested in discovering any magic or rituals that allowed them to kill the Dark Spawn or Archdemons, they might even consider the child could be a very useful tool or weapon as well.
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