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[Lotion Soronarr]

ERm...wardens do get corrupted...only much, MUCH slower. What do you think the Calling is?



That said, I really don't trust Morrigan enough or her theory that the child will be uncorrupted or anything.

What is known as a fact is that a corrupted old god causes a blight, that it gets corrupted by darskpawn, that they are constantly looking for the old gods since they hear their "song". Risking another blight is a no-no, especially considering how many lives a Blight usually takes away before it stops.



Just so I could live a bit longer? Not worth it. Every time you go into battle you could die. We all die. It's how you lived and died that matters. And I plan to die as a Big Damn Hero!

[marshalleck]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eclesis wrote...

Compared to that I'd rather take my chances with the godbaby, or at least would be hesitant to label it evil just because the Old Gods opposed the Maker.

I'd go with the Maker. If nothing else, for practical reasons. Chantry is powerfull and everywhere and the Maker PWNED all the Old Gods.
1 old god child can't even compare with the Maker on the power scale, or so it seems.

And there's no real evidence that anything the Chantry says is true. Political power != divine efficacy. Their influence over the political landscape just means they have some smooth talkers on the payroll.

On the other hand, a corporeal Old God, even more powerful than a high dragon, is very, VERY real. Unlike anything attributed to the Maker. Morrigan even hints at this with her talk of giving people something real to believe in.

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 décembre 2009 - 10:24 .

[twincast]

Curlain wrote...

twincast wrote...

Itkovian wrote...
(in a world rampant with obserbable supernatural events, I found it difficult to RP an atheist *grin*).

Morrigan and Leliana have a nice (two-parter?) discussion about that. My main mage and I happen to agree with Morrigan. (My favorite banter is the one between Wynne and Zevran, though.)

My main was already dead set on sacrificing himself because Ferelden needs Alistair and Anora to share the throne and what's more, he didn't want his best friend to die. But then the offer came and after some hesitation (blood magic, sleeping with a woman) he agreed because he trusted Morrigan's claim that the child would not be evil and because preemptive murder can hardly be called ethically sound so to speak. The only worry being that the child could become a danger due to antisocial upbringing. So, he isn't totally happy with it, but in the end you gotta trust your friends, right? Plus, not dying is one nice bonus.

Someone mentioned mercy/redemption being a theme running through the game and as a matter of fact I spared every life that could be spared through dialog - even that bastard of a slaver. The only exception due to meta knowledge was Loghain and it literally pained me to do so, but I didn't wanna lose my best bud. Why can't I throw him into a dungeon, damn it? My main would neither slaughter someone who yielded nor trust such a ruthless bastard in battle. Mod, please?

edit: Another exception, after much thinking, is Flemeth - but she'll supposedly be back anyway.

When Morrigan started talking to my PC about saving and preserving an 'Old God' I thought back to her old discussion with Leliana here on belief in gods vs no belief, and I thought you complete hypocrite Morrigan (still loved her anyway )

Well, they are called Old Gods, doesn't mean she thinks of them as actual deities.

[Curlain]

Aye you have a point, Old God could mean anything here, though of course that means it's probably not the wisest idea ever for the PC to help release whatever it is without knowing more about what the really are, which is info that Morrigan won't supply us unfortunely. Makes for an interesting choice (and sorry I called you a hypocrite Morrigan, please don't turn me into a frog, you know you'll only be proving Alistair right if you do )

Modifié par Curlain, 01 décembre 2009 - 10:28 .

[Thomas9321]

I don't really see the benefits of the Sacrifice ending - a fancy tomb next to Garahel and that's about it. I considered a couple things when considering Morrigan's offer.

First being the middle part of the Grey Warden motto: "In peace, vigilance", well that means guarding the world against the darkspawn does it not? Who will protect Ferelden when my character was gone? The Orlesian Wardens? So I took the offer so my character could protect Ferelden in the future. Also, if Morrigan did get up to some evil stuff with the God Child, my character was ideally suited to deal with future problems.

Secondly, my character (and I) believed Morrigan. The Old God would be purified, freed from the taint. So it becomes more like saving the Old God than slaying the Archdemon. Not to mention my firm belief that the Black City/Old God story is pure propaganda.

Also, I don't see the Wardens sacrifice to kill the Archdemon's as noble - Its that they have no other way. So to my mind I was simply doing what the Wardens that sacrified themselves wished they had done (and It's not like my character was unwilling, I'd already told Alistair and Riordan that I would take the final blow).

[Dalish-Elf]

     Of this, I'm slightly indecisive. (Almost purely for selfish reasons. It would be much easier to let myself off the hook by saying that Morrigan *isn't* going to raise the child to tap into the supremely dark powers that are naturally inherent in such a child.... but that would be hoping for a bit much, if you ask me. And if I *have* gotten that deluded? I probably *do* deserve to explain myself to a tribunal. >.>) But I digress.

     The whole point of Dragon Age, (besides to tell a good story,) is, I believe, a way to determine just how you constitute moral right or wrong. It's a factor that made the game feel like a personalized experience, rather than just another game. In my opinion, Morrigan's ritual is only evil, if you're making preconceptions. If anything, trusting her is one such dangerous preconception... but so is assuming that simply because you know little about her, she's going to do something heinous.

     *My* biggest concern, was just *why* she wanted a child with the soul of an Old God. She's not very er...motherly, for one, so (I felt,) I could safely assume that she didn't want a child simply to nurture and love. There had to be something in it for her. An angle. What would this child be like? Is she going to prevent this child, my child, from ever having a hope of a happy, normal life? The very same thing that (as a Mage,) I feel was torn from me?

     Did I give into Morrigan, even with all of these questions completely unanswered? Yes. Was I thinking when I made such a decision? Not as much as I thought I was. It was like being drunk: you always think you have more reason in your head than you actually do. I already knew about The Calling, that was bad to begin with, and enough to make part of me hate being a Grey Warden...which made my game experience all the better. The game makes me choose, to make choices based on simply how I feel.

    I was even more effected by Morrigan's ritual because due to the choices I made, I think it was the most important decision in the game. I had just promised Lelianna that once everything was over, we'd travel the world together, and, up until a short time before, I sacrificed everything for Morrigan. Sure I made decisions based on my morality...sometimes. But she was a very powerful influence. My main goal in the game, was to try and change her. To make my character show her that there's more to life than her pain that's made her see the world this way. 

   I tried to balance a relationship between her and Lelianna because, honestly, I couldn't choose! Ultimately I felt that Morrigan needed "love" more, and I did everything to try to change her.(She's a difficult one to walk on eggshells with, I'm tellin' 'ya.) And now....I hear I'm going to die?? WTF?! All my character wanted was to live a life without all the suffering, all the bleakness and duty, and fate decided for him how his life was going to take it's course. As a result, he became very cynical and hardened, (if still empathetic,) and lost himself to The Blight, just as he feared he would. Morrigan's offer was far too tempting to resist.

  He only regrets that he couldn't change her, and that now, he has to live with the knowledge that he may have passed on the same darkness he tried to save himself, and Ferelden from. At the end of the day, I think that's the main question posed by Dragon Age. Just who were you as a Grey Warden, and did you become the thing you hunted for so long? It's a moral that demonstrates just how rich in scope the story is, and what it says about our world.

 Do I believe I was wrong for participating in Morrigan's ritual? Honestly? I don't know. All I know, is that I wanted to live more than I cared about the consequences of not dying. I felt so cheated that some justification was necessary, even if the rest of the world feels the poison that my choices inflict, and perhaps it's a mentality like that that's ruined the world. We all cause each other to suffer, simply because we wish to avoid suffering, eh?

[PinkShira]

I was recruited into the Gray Wardens, not told about the ritual and never even introduced to the other Gray Wardens at Ostagar. Though I understood what the role of a Gray Warden is/was, I felt my character never really had a total connection to them like Alistair. So when told about possibly dying to the Archdemon and if not then definitely have a limited amount of time left... and on top of that slim chances I was ever going to have a child!, my character felt more loyalty to herself and Alistair which I had romanced and was completely in love with. So the ritual was a no brainer for me, live and love!

[MassEffect762]

That all depends on what Morrigan has in the works. She is "slippery" to judge.

If Morrigan wasn't lying about her intentions than I see it as smart and not selfish, BUT who the heck knows really with Morrigan.

I get so many cliche plot theories thinking about what could happen. A few that have popped in my head.

Beowulf spin-off
007(daniel craig) and Vesper romance spin-off

What's the end game, only bioware knows.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 01 décembre 2009 - 11:41 .

[tigrina]

I see the whole "Old Gods = Bad" as a typical chantry thing. I think, like with Andraste and the Urn, it is not all what it seems.

The Dalish have some interesting stories on 'their' Old Gods though, and those weren't all exactly benevolent Gods.

Personally I believe Morrigan wants to have the child to be ready before Flemeth returns, so she expects to gain power with it. I'm not so sure if that is either good or bad. She also says she'll teach the child respect to where he came from. I believe that part. Not so sure if she has a choice in the matter though.

It was really interesting to ask Flemeth for the truth (for Morrigan's quest). She simply refuses to give it.

Modifié par tigrina, 02 décembre 2009 - 12:10 .

[Loki330]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

TheDrunkenPanda wrote...

The Chantry says many things.

yep lol

True. Not even the Sacred Ashes of Andraste are real proof that the Maker exists. If you bring Ogrhen with you on this quest he'll mention that he can sense an extremely strong Lyrium vein around the temple and that it affects everything inside. He actually says that it might not all be real.

I remember one theory knocking around that the 'chantry' (Andraste I suppose) imprisoned the gods the teventan empire worshipped in the fade.

Long story short, the theory was the mages tried to get into the 'golden city' to rescue their gods, only for it to go horribly, horribly wrong.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ERm...wardens do get corrupted...only much, MUCH slower. What do you think the Calling is?

Yes, but their corruption is different than typical corruption. The Calling seems more like they finally start hearing the song that drives darkspawn to dig for old gods. They never, AFAIK, become deformed hunchback creatures like Ruck or Hespith did. And in the meantime, they're immune to the taint.

[DaySeeker]

First time through I gave into Morri. The second time we were in love, but I refused, thinking that conceiving the child was the plan all along, especially because she admits to knowing the Grey Warden's final fate. And she would tell me nothing and demanded to never be seen again, AND was in effect, killing my child, which I haven't seen anyone talk about. Add to this what she has told us about her mother being close to immortal through the sacrifice of her children. Maybe this was the deal. Flemeth and Morri made a deal, Flemeth would spare Morri out of love if she provdided the "Old God" soul. Maybe Morri had you kill her mom so she could have the soul to herself. The fact that she leaves me when I refuse seems to me to indicate there was no cause for her outside of securing the soul. That seems very dangerous to me, and it explains her strange behavior and dialogue choices and disapproval over things that could be easily explained (I'm helping these idiots in Lothering because I need something from them and I DON'T need Logain's troop coming here to find me;" she was just testing you the whole time, seeing how much influence she had and what she could get you to do.



Plus Alistair had set himself up from the beginning as being perfectly happy to sacrifice himself. It would have been different (and harder if he'd said he wanted to be king and that he wanted to live, then I'd have to make a bastard choice, kill him or myself, or my child and who knows who else when Mori got what she wanted.

[eschilde]

Well, there's no way you can say the Dark Ritual isn't selfish, even if it's so you can live to fight some more. Even if the kid turns out to be a non-demon you're condemning it to be raised by Morrigan, of all people. I rather doubt she's going to get in touch with her motherly, nurturing side (and if she does.. I'd be afraid. Very afraid.) Best case scenario is you end up with another emotionally damaged kid... you have no control over how it's raised, even if it's yours, and no matter what it actually is, you have to know it's going to make trouble somehow.



But even disregarding that, a Grey Warden conceiving a kid at all is kind of a selfish thing. It's going to be born with the taint, which is not exactly fun and games; it's doomed to a short lifespan and horrible dreams should another archdemon wake up. Then, in this case, you're destroying its taint and the archdemon, but think about what that actually does.. I mean.. it kills a normal person (well, if you can call a Grey Warden normal anyway..), and this is a fetus you're talking about.. it'd be kinda shocking if it didn't come out with some sort of deformity even if Morrigan says it won't be harmed..

[The Capital Gaultier]

Silensfurtim wrote...

What would you choose:

Destroying an Old God once and for all?

Let an Old God live again with a chance of getting tainted again for 8th Blight?

That is a false dilemma.  An Old God's soul in a human body is not nearly as troublesome as an Old God buried somewhere in the ground.  The darkspawn are the only ones likely to find the latter.  The former rests somewhere within human society.  You don't kill women just because they have a chance of becoming Broodmothers, so why would you kill the child?

Besides, that all depends on the supposition that the Archdemons really are Old Gods who have been tainted.  It may not even be the case.

[eschilde]

That is a false dilemma. An Old God's soul in a human body is not nearly as troublesome as an Old God buried somewhere in the ground. The darkspawn are the only ones likely to find the latter. The former rests somewhere within human society. You don't kill women just because they have a chance of becoming Broodmothers, so why would you kill the child?

I agree with that but I also wonder that an Old God by itself wouldn't be dangerous. What kind of memories/knowledge does it have access to? Would it know about the Tevinter Imperium, or about its own godhood? If it knows it's a god, would it try to recreate something like that? I think something along those lines would case a bigger problem than the darkspawn just concerning, well, stability of the realm.. I mean just on a small scale it could cause something like the Haven cult. If the Tevinters found out about it it could cause something much bigger? I mean, that's just off the top of my head. Morrigan doesn't answer any of those questions, you know? ><

[The Capital Gaultier]

eschilde wrote...

I agree with that but I also wonder that an Old God by itself wouldn't be dangerous. What kind of memories/knowledge does it have access to? Would it know about the Tevinter Imperium, or about its own godhood? If it knows it's a god, would it try to recreate something like that? I think something along those lines would case a bigger problem than the darkspawn just concerning, well, stability of the realm.. I mean just on a small scale it could cause something like the Haven cult. If the Tevinters found out about it it could cause something much bigger? I mean, that's just off the top of my head. Morrigan doesn't answer any of those questions, you know? ><

It is troublesome how little detail she wants to give about her intentions or her beliefs.  For being such an anti-religious person, she really does demand a lot of faith from you. :happy:

[Gold Dragon]

Is Morrigan really evil? The Chantry says that Man should never be ruled by Magic. So they turn anyone who could cast a spell into a slave. You obey the Templars, or you die. No exceptions, no mercy. Other than deceitful wretches like Jowan. He just wanted to be free. What's evil about that?



As said earlier, the Chantry is a Religious organization. The Old Gods of the Tevinter Imperium are enemies to the Chantry, so of course the Chantry would say they are evil, but that doesn't make it so. And in-game, we really don't get much info on the Imperium (other than the slavery), so everything is one-sided. Maybe the next game we get a chance to end the Slavery in theTevinter Imperium. Everything said about the old gods being evil is based on a one-sided discussion. Sloppy thinking, at the least.



As for how I handled the Ritual, well....



Human Noble Female fell head over heals for Alistair quite early, and refused to leave him behind for anything (other than those few issues like relieving one's self, of course), and was absolutely HORRIFIED to learn she might lose Alistair. Then along comes Morrigan with " Maybe it doesn't need to be that way". I swear, I think she almost kissed Morrigan for that. SHe took it, no questions.



Elf Mage Joined the Wardens for her safety (the Jowan incident. She claims to have been sent down there on Irving's orders, and this is her reward). When she reaches this point, she, too will take it. More to snub her nose at the Chantry and the Templars for all those years of slavery, more than out of self-preservation or keeping Alistair alive. She's otherwise perfectly content to die over this, but Helping Morrigan (when it finally gets out that she did), well... She will take a hint from Jowan. She'll turn into a tiny spider, find the place in Denerim where her vial is, and destroy it.

[Eclesis]

Whether the Dark Ritual is good for the world, we don't know because we don't have the information to be able to second-guess the cosmology behind the Old Gods/Archdemons/etc. beyond the Chantry party line, and it's not like they've been doing a sterling job of dealing with any Archdemons.



Whether the Grey Warden PC going along with the ritual is selfish, on the other hand, is very easy to determine: did you do it because you honestly thought saving the Old God was better for the world, or did you do it because you wanted to save yourself and/or Alistair? The latter is selfish, the former is not (and "selfish" is not necessarily automatically "bad").



You could have a character who thinks the Chantry doctrine is a load of hogwash and honestly believes it's better for the world to preserve the Old God. Whether s/he is right is another issue, but the motivation for doing so would not be selfish in that case.

[Inakhia]

My Noble girl had been dragged from the scene of her family's slaughter down to Ostagar, with little more then time enough to grab a sword and the memory of a promise to her father to uphold the family honour and rescue her brother. Then Duncan get's himself killed along with all the rest of the Wardens, who she had never met. From that point on, shes alone in the world, in a world of pain and loss. Death staring her in the face every time she turns around and only Alistair and the people she gathers to her side in the name of the Grey Wardens as her friends and family.

Of course she's going to fall for Alistair when he tries to cheer her up and romance her, and after Morrigan's little chat about appreciating their friendship, she probably wont really think twice about accepting her offer either.

Being a Grey Warden for my char is less about the Warden aspect, and more about continuing this quest to safeguard the lives of her friends and family and the people that depend on her.

She's nobility, of the best kind. With a strong sense of responsibility towards the landsmen that woud have lived under her families rule. She only has Alistair and his stories and legends of Grey Wardens to go by. She has little first hand experience and she's all to familiar with constant sacrifice, to believe that when death is the only option its a good thing.

But as sick of death as she is, she's going to jump as the chance to preserve some small measure of happiness with Alistair. If the other grey wardens have an issue with that? Well then they should have tried harder to get their arses into the country before this.

If pressed, she'll mention Morrigan, daugther of Flemeth apostate and powerful mage, wave her hands in the air in a general sense of frustration and confusion and leave them to leap to their own (incorrect) conclusions.

[eschilde]

did you do it because you honestly thought saving the Old God was better for the world

There is very little to support someone's thinking this. You don't have any knowledge, really, of what an Old God actually is. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that very few, if anyone, would have allowed Morrigan to get away with this scheme if it didn't save your lives.

[AtreiyaN7]

I recall that Duncan actually said at some point during the mage origin quest that the use of blood magic was acceptable to Wardens in stopping the Blight after he asks you about your opinion on the subject (I think it was after he tells the story about the blood mage). That being said, I don't think he had anything like Morrigan's ritual in mind, and I'm pretty sure that no other Wardens have been faced with a similar choice.

I do believe that you should have to explain your actions to a tribunal of Wardens, because people need to be aware that there might be future fallout from this. I mean, technically, you can tell Alistair that he should tell the other Wardens the truth (being sensible however, he says let's go with the playing dumb option). However, accepting Morrigan's offer doesn't negate the fact that you fulfilled your duties (as Alistair points out, you could still be squished to death anyway).

Oh well, Wynne said that love was ultimately selfish. Let's face it, the main reason anyone does it is specifically to save their love interest. Was it a selfish act? Certainly. Was it criminal? Doesn't seem like it (unless it qualifies as blood magic of the sort the Chantry disapproves of). It's certianly morally questionable, but for all anyone knows, you might have had a hand in creating a potential savior rather than a destroyer.

[Eclesis]

eschilde wrote...

did you do it because you honestly thought saving the Old God was better for the world

There is very little to support someone's thinking this. You don't have any knowledge, really, of what an Old God actually is. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that very few, if anyone, would have allowed Morrigan to get away with this scheme if it didn't save your lives.

However, just because you don't know what it is, does that mean you have to choose to destroy it? If the ritual succeeds the Blight still ends; the character has no foresight over what happens after that.

The people who say they're evil are the Chantry. The same guys who can't even get consistency in their own Chant of Light, and (depending on PC race/origin) haven't really done you any favors. The one who tells you that the Old God is worth preserving is Morrigan, who your character may have come to know and trust over their journey. Now, you can argue that it's silly to trust her, that she's ultimately evil, etc., but that's really up to the individual PC to decide. I'd say she has at least as good a case as the priests, *if* you trust her.

Now I do think that self preservation (and/or wanting to save your friend or love interest) probably figured greatly into the decision for most people, but it's still conceivable that a character could want to do it even if it weren't attached to the sacrifice.

[Krigwin]

It's interesting so many are already drawing their own conclusions about the Chantry even though there's no evidence of their corruption or evil, unlike in most other games with religious organizations.

[eschilde]

Eclesis wrote...

eschilde wrote...

did you do it because you honestly thought saving the Old God was better for the world

There is very little to support someone's thinking this. You don't have any knowledge, really, of what an Old God actually is. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that very few, if anyone, would have allowed Morrigan to get away with this scheme if it didn't save your lives.

However, just because you don't know what it is, does that mean you have to choose to destroy it? If the ritual succeeds the Blight still ends; the character has no foresight over what happens after that.

The people who say they're evil are the Chantry. The same guys who can't even get consistency in their own Chant of Light, and (depending on PC race/origin) haven't really done you any favors. The one who tells you that the Old God is worth preserving is Morrigan, who your character may have come to know and trust over their journey. Now, you can argue that it's silly to trust her, that she's ultimately evil, etc., but that's really up to the individual PC to decide. I'd say she has at least as good a case as the priests, *if* you trust her.

Now I do think that self preservation (and/or wanting to save your friend or love interest) probably figured greatly into the decision for most people, but it's still conceivable that a character could want to do it even if it weren't attached to the sacrifice.

You don't know what it is, and you're not destroying something if it doesn't exist in the first place. What you _are_ destroying is an Archdemon, which may or may not have been an Old God--that's also something debatable. You have no idea what kind of thing Morrigan is going to pop out after x months, and not only do you have no idea, you also have no control over what it will become.

Maybe it's only the Chantry that says the Old Gods are evil, but whether you think the _Archdemon_ is evil or not, it's definitely causing huge problems (you know, that little thing they call the Blight) and it needs to be gotten rid of. I'm not sure giving it another incarnation, if that's even what happening, is something justifiable by anyone, especially a Grey Warden, regardless of whether or not it's tainted. Basically, it's a case of an evil you know vs. something completely unknown. 

My point with Morrigan is simply that she's got issues and any kid she raises is likely going to end up the same.