I redeemed him as a Cousland for several reasons-I couldn't let Anora have that kind of experience especially because i was going to marry her-My warden dislike his father which was too much of royalist who never once understood that if he would have accepted responsibility as a king of Ferelden things could have been better especailly during the blight.
That makes sense. I suppose as long as you have a good RP reason, it works. I went more plain about it, and my Cousland loved his parents.
I just can never see, from the perspective of the PC, the idea of sacrificing themselves. It just always seems wrong to me, IMO.
It's odd because someone is sacrificed, but I guess I just don't see a person themselves as ever really able to justify sacrificing themselves if some other option is available... it just seems off to me essentially IMO.
Obviously it happens anyway and all that, but yeah, so anytime in a game there's anything that precludes me dying, I take it.
So like in Blood Omen I would just have Kain basically destroy nearly all world so that he can live.
No regrets... strangely enough... I mean it's a great tragedy and all, and it would of been nice if there was some other way, but in that extreme situation.
He's just put in that position and grins and bears it. It isn't something he wanted.
Especially my Dalish. He didn't even want to be a Warden... but to me, the whole story was a growing process, and he started caring about consequences, and caring for people - including humans.
I refined it that way at least. My first character ever was a sacrifice and it just felt like the right thing to do, given the options. I didn't know about Loghain until much later. Not to mention I'm just weary of magical sex rites done with Witches in the dark of night. That just screams archetypally bad, on a literary level.
I would have the ritual on more imports though if it wasn't so half-assed. Everything about the Warden is half-assed now. So I'm even more in the Sacrifice camp. I just want them out of the story so I don't have to think about it.
Huh. Sex rites with witches are common in fiction? Tell me more.
It's the centerpoint of Arthur. Probably something before that too. It's a story that gets repeated.
I recall that one Beowulf movie made a few years back. Angelina Jolie played the Morrigan type of witch. That was pretty good... and it had consequences. Like the Arthurian story.. the offspring came back to haunt the hero.
Okay, another possible argument for the Ritual is that Morrigan's explanation of the mechanics imply that with her unborn child in the vicinity, anyone will be able to kill the Archdemon without fear of it fleeing into another tainted creature and prolonging the Blight. Given the number of Wardens present, that could be reason enough to do it all by itself.
He's just put in that position and grins and bears it. It isn't something he wanted.
Especially my Dalish. He didn't even want to be a Warden... but to me, the whole story was a growing process, and he started caring about consequences, and caring for people - including humans.
I refined it that way at least. My first character ever was a sacrifice and it just felt like the right thing to do, given the options. I didn't know about Loghain until much later. Not to mention I'm just weary of magical sex rites done with Witches in the dark of night. That just screams archetypally bad, on a literary level.
I would have the ritual on more imports though if it wasn't so half-assed. Everything about the Warden is half-assed now. So I'm even more in the Sacrifice camp. I just want them out of the story so I don't have to think about it.
Hm, you sound almost as conflicted and heavy hearted as Loghain himself! 
Okay, another possible argument for the Ritual is that Morrigan's explanation of the mechanics imply that with her unborn child in the vicinity, anyone will be able to kill the Archdemon without fear of it fleeing into another tainted creature and prolonging the Blight. Given the number of Wardens present, that could be reason enough to do it all by itself.
That's a good enough argument that if it did work like that she'd want to make it explicit. Therefore it shouldn't come as a surprise that we have Word of Gaider that it doesn't.
That's a good enough argument that if it did work like that she'd want to make it explicit. Therefore it shouldn't come as a surprise that we have Word of Gaider that it doesn't.
Word of Gaider is kinda meaningless here. The truth is that he'd never thought about it and had no real answer.
Then a fan came up with a clever explanation and he was like "Uh... yeah, sure, whatever you say".
Having watched the conversation again, I think it's perfectly conceivable that she just doesn't think to make sure the Warden understands her on that point.
We have "the Word of Gaider" that while it wasn't intended to be taken as such, since it's left ambiguous you can decide for yourself:
I remember our thinking at the time was that the Archdemon's essence had to enter a Grey Warden first-- and that the Dark Ritual would effectively "pull" the essence from the Grey Warden into the child. It didn't seem like it was important enough to explain (certainly even if that wasn't the case the player is probably the only person with the personal power to kill the Archdemon as it is), and Morrigan has a lot of explaining to cover.
Seeing as it was never mentioned, however, you can opt for whichever explanation you prefer.
What I take from this is that there's a great justification for doing the Dark Ritual if you really need or want one. Personally I prefer it the other way around, as this being a factor would make the Ultimate Sacrifice pure, almost Cailan-esque idiocy. Or at least a very tragic misunderstanding of Morrigan's words, which is pretty plausible.
If I had to convince a hero to have sex with me in spite of ingrained prejudices and potential personal issues, the consequences of which could mean the salvation or destruction of a country and make or break my plans to become the mother of a god, I might not be in a state of mind to make perfectly concise and thorough arguments either.
Having watched the conversation again, I think it's perfectly conceivable that she just doesn't think to make sure the Warden understands her on that point.
We have "the Word of Gaider" that while it wasn't intended to be taken as such, since it's left ambiguous you can decide for yourself:
What I take from this is that there's a great justification for doing the Dark Ritual if you really need or want one. Personally I prefer it the other way around, as this being a factor would make the Ultimate Sacrifice pure, almost Cailan-esque idiocy. Or at least a very tragic misunderstanding of Morrigan's words, which is pretty plausible.
If I had to convince a hero to have sex with me in spite of ingrained prejudices and potential personal issues, the consequences of which could mean the salvation or destruction of a country and make or break my plans to become the mother of a god, I might not be in a state of mind to make perfectly concise and thorough arguments either.
I don't think Morrigan would miss any potential argument in favor of this idea. She's been actively working towards this for at least a year, and planning for it her whole life. She's almost certainly not coming up with her arguments on the spot; Flemeth probably gave her a basic script years ago with a caveat that she should alter the script in her head as she came to know who she was trying to persuade and what might persuade that person to make questionable choices to save their own life. If she doesn't make this argument, it's probably because it isn't true.
I don't think Morrigan would miss any potential argument in favor of this idea. She's been actively working towards this for at least a year, and planning for it her whole life. She's almost certainly not coming up with her arguments on the spot; Flemeth probably gave her a basic script years ago with a caveat that she should alter the script in her head as she came to know who she was trying to persuade and what might persuade that person to make questionable choices to save their own life. If she doesn't make this argument, it's probably because it isn't true.
I'd say all that makes it more likely for her to make a mistake rather than less. I don't know about you, but I've never had an important conversation scripted out in my imagination in which things didn't either take a complete turn from what I was expecting, catching me totally off-guard, I accidentally left something out in my crude attempts to formulate what seemed like straightforward arguments in my head, or I didn't hear half of what the other person was saying and only in hindsight realized what s/he was actually talking about because I was in my own world where the conversation was going this way instead of that.
Conversing is complicated business, especially if it's something that doesn't come naturally to you, and the voice acting during that scene alone makes it clear that she's not feeling on top of her game by the time the Warden starts asking questions. She isn't checking off a mental list of arguments, at best she's trying to remember the one she made when you weren't demanding answers and forcing her to look you in the eye. And under those circumstances, and given the progression of her actual dialogue, I find that her her forgetting to underline this point fits okay with the scene.
I don't think Morrigan would miss any potential argument in favor of this idea. She's been actively working towards this for at least a year, and planning for it her whole life. She's almost certainly not coming up with her arguments on the spot; Flemeth probably gave her a basic script years ago with a caveat that she should alter the script in her head as she came to know who she was trying to persuade and what might persuade that person to make questionable choices to save their own life. If she doesn't make this argument, it's probably because it isn't true.
Having watched the conversation again, I think it's perfectly conceivable that she just doesn't think to make sure the Warden understands her on that point.
We have "the Word of Gaider" that while it wasn't intended to be taken as such, since it's left ambiguous you can decide for yourself:
What I take from this is that there's a great justification for doing the Dark Ritual if you really need or want one. Personally I prefer it the other way around, as this being a factor would make the Ultimate Sacrifice pure, almost Cailan-esque idiocy. Or at least a very tragic misunderstanding of Morrigan's words, which is pretty plausible.
If I had to convince a hero to have sex with me in spite of ingrained prejudices and potential personal issues, the consequences of which could mean the salvation or destruction of a country and make or break my plans to become the mother of a god, I might not be in a state of mind to make perfectly concise and thorough arguments either.
Please don't compare me to Cailan
It's just not interesting anymore. I'm best off just washing the Warden out of my head. That's the best reason not to do it. And I'm not that attached that I have to make the character happy or something.
For me at least. I can come up with many reasons within the narrative, but this is the biggest one now.
Cailan was seeking glory. I'd say I'm doing the complete opposite.
Please don't compare me to Cailan
It's just not interesting anymore. I'm best off just washing the Warden out of my head. That's the best reason not to do it. And I'm not that attached that I have to make the character happy or something.
For me at least. I can come up with many reasons within the narrative, but this is the biggest one now.
Cailan was seeking glory. I'd say I'm doing the complete opposite.
Heh, I wouldn't dream of it. Ultimate Sacrifice is my canon too. It's just that refusing a ritual that would make the Archdemon fair game for anyone in case you don't make it that far just to be able to honorably sacrifice yourself is a very 'Cailan' decision. Very "glorious!"
As such, any playthrough in which the Dark Ritual is treated as having that effect is a playthrough where the Ritual is a no-brainer and the Ultimate Sacrifice is a tactical blunder far worse than Ostagar. Therefore necessarily, any playthrough where the Ultimate Sacrifice is treated seriously must also have the Dark Ritual without this benefit, or at least perceived to be without this benefit, which is equally plausible and canon.
I like this way of thinking of it, although it requires a bit of compartmentalization from playthrough to playthrough.
As such, any playthrough in which the Dark Ritual is treated as having that effect is a playthrough where the Ritual is a no-brainer and the Ultimate Sacrifice is a tactical blunder far worse than Ostagar. Therefore necessarily, any playthrough where the Ultimate Sacrifice is treated seriously must also have the Dark Ritual without this benefit, or at least perceived to be without this benefit, which is equally plausible and canon.
Your premise is totally undermined by the simple fact that the Ultimate sacrifice is old god killer therefore the refusal of the Dark ritual has nothing to do with tactical blunder in any event.
Heh, I wouldn't dream of it. Ultimate Sacrifice is my canon too. It's just that refusing a ritual that would make the Archdemon fair game for anyone in case you don't make it that far just to be able to honorably sacrifice yourself is a very 'Cailan' decision. Very "glorious!"
As such, any playthrough in which the Dark Ritual is treated as having that effect is a playthrough where the Ritual is a no-brainer and the Ultimate Sacrifice is a tactical blunder far worse than Ostagar. Therefore necessarily, any playthrough where the Ultimate Sacrifice is treated seriously must also have the Dark Ritual without this benefit, or at least perceived to be without this benefit, which is equally plausible and canon.
I like this way of thinking of it, although it requires a bit of compartmentalization from playthrough to playthrough.
I get you.. I don't think I paid attention to the main point before. My apologies. What you're saying makes sense.. 
I get you.. I don't think I paid attention to the main point before. My apologies. What you're saying makes sense..
Even if we concede to the DR a tactical advantage that was never confirmed anywhere it's effect would not allow the soul destruction which implies an inherent series of potentially dangerous variables related to the preservation of the soul that the warden may not be willing to concede for the sole benefit of a tactical advantage.
Your premise is totally undermined by the simple fact that the Ultimate sacrifice is old god killer therefore the refusal of the Dark ritual has nothing to do with tactical blunder in any event.
Your premise is totally undermined by the simple fact that the Warden isn't omniscient and so has to make whatever calls s/he deems sensible without knowing the actual fallout beforehand.
Even if we concede to the DR a tactical advantage that was never confirmed anywhere it's effect would not allow the soul destruction which implies an inherent series of potentially dangerous variables related to the preservation of the soul that the warden may not be willing to concede for the sole benefit of a tactical advantage.
An overwhelming tactical advantage, thank you very much. Having hundreds if not thousands of troops in Denerim instead of three capable of slaying the Archdemon without just making things worse. Gambling that the Wardens will make it to the Archdemon and defeat it is certainly no less risky than attempting the Ritual.
Or what, a city filled to the brim with darkspawn to personally fight through doesn't qualify as "an inherent series of potentially dangerous variables"?
Hypothetical or not, that's the kind of thing that would make me consider.
I wouldn't do it to save my own ass though.
Your premise is totally undermined by the simple fact that the Warden isn't omniscient and so has to make whatever calls s/he deems sensible without knowing the actual fallout beforehand.
I wouldn't call it a mere tactical advantage. I think from early on when I played, I always wished I had more Wardens. Like it was a normal blight. We're like no Warden ever before. Very disadvantaged. It'd be nice if you could throw just anyone at an archdemon.
Your argumentation does not make sense,the warden is perfectly aware at the moment of making the decision that the ritual will not destroy the soul and they can decide that is still not worth the risk to summon Chtulu for a pseudo tactical advantage,a Chutulu that could be far worse than the Archdemon.Being able or attempt to predict the fallouts beforehand is integral part of being a commander.
The Warden, at the moment of making the decision, knows next to nothing about Old Gods, souls or for that matter the works of H.P. Lovecraft. What s/he knows is that the Archdemon needs to die. Realistically, three Wardens fighting their way through Denerim and killing the Archdemon would be a miracle. Taking the possibility of failure into account is an equally integral part of being a commander, which the Warden also isn't yet. Everybody else being able to kill the Archdemon would mean a huge increase in likelihood of it actually happening, and a baby "born with the soul of an Old God" sounds, on the face of it, like a far more manageable threat than the Blight continuing to rage on.
Aren, I still don't like the choice.. I understand when you still don't like it. But this is kind of advantage that would make me a sellout. lol. My price wouldn't be "Hey you can save yourself". It'd have be on this scale. And then I might be interested enough to see the results or pay the price later, if need be.
The Warden, at the moment of making the decision, knows next to nothing about Old Gods, souls or for that matter the works of H.P. Lovecraft. What s/he knows is that the Archdemon needs to die. Realistically, three Wardens fighting their way through Denerim and killing the Archdemon would be a miracle. Taking the possibility of failure into account is an equally integral part of being a commander, which the Warden also isn't yet. Everybody else being able to kill the Archdemon would mean a huge increase in likelihood of it actually happening, and a baby "born with the soul of an Old God" sounds, on the face of it, like a far more manageable threat than the Blight continuing to rage on.
You preserve an old god soul and since these souls emit the calling you don't know if as a result of it the darkspawn in Denerim will retreat or no,with the huge risk to be unsure if that process is really able to trick the darkspawns both by hiding the calling of the old god from them
(thus end the blight) and into being attracted to a child rather than a darkspawn.
The Ultimate sacrifice is not a tactical blunder in any event because is a military certainty who was tested several times.
From Gaiders own words the wardens are the only one who possess among the military the raw power to defeat the Archdemon without being turned into ghouls,so unless you forgot that non-GW are vulnerable to the taint and that the one of the Archdemon is highly infective and can be emitted through his magical vortex i don't see how the weak Ferelden military could defeat him while he his protected by Darkspawns
Potential ghouls i will dare to say that may turn against you and serve the Archdemon.
There you have more Archdemon killers that are unable to do anything until the Archdemon is defeated by the wardens.
Aren, I still don't like the choice.. I understand when you still don't like it. But this is kind of advantage that would make me a sellout. lol. My price wouldn't be "Hey you can save yourself". It'd have be on this scale. And then I might be interested enough to see the results or pay the price later, if need be.
Still contrary because you have to assume that once that the ritual is done the blight will end while perfectly aware that old god soul emit the calling that may keep those darkspawns in the battlefield.
In any case, I don't have this advantage anyways, so the choice is easier.
I'm just saying I hit a threshold..
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