1807 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

 

The situation bothers me  on the design level. It's compelling a party member to do something they express discomfort about. How far should video game protagonists be able to go to convince, persuade, or force another character to do something?This case is far more critical  than the Loghain decision for Alistair which is about beget a bastard and Alistair lived this as a trauma for his entire life with someone he hate.

In Dragon Age, the player character-companion relationship basically boils down to "hey player, make my most important life choices for me" from the companion's point of view. Some of these are framed better than others but you can feel pretty uncomfortable over having to decide a personal matter for someone.

In DA:O, many companions had hard limits on how far you could push them. some companions will leave the party if you're enough of a jerk to them, but that feels more a like a judgment about your overall leadership style than violating a specific core belief.

I can also see beliefs about when life begins and when human beings gain a spirit/soul playing into this too. Some players and characters might not be OK with procreation as a utilitarian act instead of its own end.

 

 

That's kind of a problem with a lot of their games. Or maybe all of them.

 

And it's not standard "roleplaying" stuff btw. It's very specific to computer roleplaying,..where you tend to have strong protagonists, where the world revolves around them. This doesn't fly in pnp...since you gotta deal with other people, and everyone's part of a group of equal adventurers. Rarely do I see the experience replicated well.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That's kind of a problem with a lot of their games. Or maybe all of them.

 

And it's not standard "roleplaying" stuff btw. It's very specific to computer roleplaying,..where you tend to have strong protagonists, where the world revolves around them. This doesn't fly in pnp...since you gotta deal with other people, and everyone's part of a group of equal adventurers. Rarely do I see the experience replicated well.

The closest thing to a PnP experience I've ever seen is Grand Theft Auto V. (Though maybe it's partially because I tended to game with terrible people.)

[straykat]

Hah... really? I would have never guessed (haven't played it btw).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Hah... really? I would have never guessed (haven't played it btw).

You control three more-or-less-equally-important protagonists who don't always get along, and who occasionally do stunts so stupid that you'd think only a tabletop player could have come up with them. I could swear I was back at the PnP table when I played it.

[straykat]

You control three more-or-less-equally-important protagonists who don't always get along, and who occasionally do stunts so stupid that you'd think only a tabletop player could have come up with them. I could swear I was back at the PnP table when I played it.

 

Sounds fun. I've been waiting for it to get cheaper, but GTA's price doesn't go down quickly like some games.

[Qun00]

I am curious... what does Loghain initially think when the Warden suggests that he should do the ritual? What argument convinces him to do it?

[straykat]

I am curious... what does Loghain initially think when the Warden suggests that he should do the ritual? What argument convinces him to do it?

 

It's similar to Alistair. Both of them do some of their best acting there.

 

Loghain already knows of Flemeth. He's not too thrilled about it. The argument that convinces him is if you order him to do it. But he begs you not to. He tells you he'd rather die first.

[Qun00]

Does he actually mention Flemeth?

[straykat]

Does he actually mention Flemeth?

 

You tell him and he scoffs about knowing she's a witch.

 

On another note, it's kind of funny on a Dalish. Everything comes full circle this way. Loghain met the Warden's father, near Flemeth's hut.

[Qun00]

You mean the Dalish elf that Loghain mentions in Ostagar? The one whose skill with a bow had no equal in his opinion?

Unlikely. Mahariel's father was a mage. The keeper.

[straykat]

You mean the Dalish elf that Loghain mentions in Ostagar? The one whose skill with a bow has no equal in his opinion?

Unlikely. Mahariel's father was a mage. The keeper.

 

No, in Stolen Throne... he's the Keeper's second at the time, when Maric and Loghain get rescued by the Dalish and take them to Flemeth.

 

And he's wearing the amulet that Ashalle gives to the Warden later.

 

edit: Actually this hasn't been confirmed.. but I'm putting 2 and 2 together, so to speak.

[ThomasBlaine]

I don't have a problem with it. Leaning on people, reasoning with them and manipulating them is a fundamental part of human interaction. To be honest, I think PnP games make it too hard by pretending that everybody is a completely self-involved individual whom you need both major skill and luck to convince to in any way be swayed from their course. My only gripe with the Origins persuation system as pertaining to party members is that their approval level doesn't factor in.

 

Concerning Alistair and Loghain, one is a sucker and the other is a trooper. Convincing either to ignore minor discomfort for the right reasons certainly isn't unrealistic or unreasonable.

[Xawer]

I see no reason why our Warden would be interested in preserving the ''pure'' spirit of an Old God, which hides many unknowns, especially inside your own child, unless he is mage. If he is a mage then he would be fascinated with such things so he would be more willing.

 

Also story wise, if Morrigan is romanced, its better not to do the ritual, again unless the protagonist is a mage.

[Qun00]

Also story wise, if Morrigan is romanced, its better not to do the ritual, again unless the protagonist is a mage.

Interesting. Why?

[Xawer]

Interesting. Why?

 

Because if Kieran has the Old God soul, this would be within Morrigan's original plans which didn't include sentimental notions and love.

The addition of the Warden and later the development of maternal feelings would be just an unexpected addition to the original plan.

 

If Kieran is a normal baby produced unexpectedly due to natural reasons, having a son and being in love with the Warden is a bigger deal in the context of Morrigan's character development.

In this case the experience of living with the Warden and their normal human son is a completely unexpected turn of events for Morrigan which are influenced purely out love and generally notions  she used to mock.

[Natureguy85]

 

That's one of the thing  i detest about Alistair  which is his ineptitude in judging a situation for what it is rather than always joke like an idiot especially his ineptitude  in terms of personality that make  him the puppet of the PC who is able to command him to beget a child.

I took Morrigan with extreme rigor and severity and kicked her out with a fierce glance and that was priceless seeing a PC who do not falter unlike this idiot.

 

 

It fits his personality though. Alistair is a weak man who uses humor to cover his insecurities. So do you detest the character as in he is somebody you wouldn't like, or do you detest the character design?

 

 

 

 

 

The situation bothers me  on the design level. It's compelling a party member to do something they express discomfort about. How far should video game protagonists be able to go to convince, persuade, or force another character to do something?This case is far more critical  than the Loghain decision for Alistair which is about beget a bastard and Alistair lived this as a trauma for his entire life with someone he hate.

In Dragon Age, the player character-companion relationship basically boils down to "hey player, make my most important life choices for me" from the companion's point of view. Some of these are framed better than others but you can feel pretty uncomfortable over having to decide a personal matter for someone.

In DA:O, many companions had hard limits on how far you could push them. some companions will leave the party if you're enough of a jerk to them, but that feels more a like a judgment about your overall leadership style than violating a specific core belief.

I can also see beliefs about when life begins and when human beings gain a spirit/soul playing into this too. Some players and characters might not be OK with procreation as a utilitarian act instead of its own end.

 

 

But isn't it good design that you have to actually argue with him and convince him via proper responses? Ultimately this format is limited because there are "right" answers that you can know or look up, but it still exists. He's at least a person and not just an instrument of the PC's will. That he gives in is part of his character, who is quite weak willed.

 

And as to the last bit, players have the option to role play that.

 

 

 

Because if Kieran has the Old God soul, this would be within Morrigan's original plans which didn't include sentimental notions and love.

The addition of the Warden and later the development of maternal feelings would be just an unexpected addition to the original plan.

 

If Kieran is a normal baby produced unexpectedly due to natural reasons, having a son and being in love with the Warden is a bigger deal in the context of Morrigan's character development.

In this case the experience of living with the Warden and their normal human son is a completely unexpected turn of events for Morrigan which are influenced purely out love and generally notions  she used to mock.

 

The addition of feelings still changes things. I had my Warrior go through the mirror with her in Witch Hunt. You're on to something but I think you have it backwards. Yes, Morrigan might have a complete character shift if she has a normal child and now her plan is toast, but I find it far more intriguing to see what sort of monkey wrench those feelings are in her original plan!

[Xawer]

^

If Kieran is ogb then the Warden is essentially helping her, with her plan. The only difference is unexpected maternal feelings + a lover/husband partner to help her with it.

 

If Kieran is normal then as you said it's a complete character shift, which makes for a better romance story imo. + i am not a fan of the idea of preserving the Old God spirit in the first place.

[Aren]

That's kind of a problem with a lot of their games. Or maybe all of them.

 

And it's not standard "roleplaying" stuff btw. It's very specific to computer roleplaying,..where you tend to have strong protagonists, where the world revolves around them. This doesn't fly in pnp...since you gotta deal with other people, and everyone's part of a group of equal adventurers. Rarely do I see the experience replicated well.

PC are literally God-protagonists in most computer rpg.

I think the only one who matched the PC in their franchise and didn't lose was Solas.

[Natureguy85]

^

If Kieran is ogb then the Warden is essentially helping her, with her plan. The only difference is unexpected maternal feelings + a lover/husband partner to help her with it.

 

If Kieran is normal then as you said it's a complete character shift, which makes for a better romance story imo. + i am not a fan of the idea of preserving the Old God spirit in the first place.

 

For me, the normal child is fine if the story is over. If it is going to continue, then I prefer the internal conflict of having both the plan and the feelings. The problems with preserving the Old God are legitimate, but a separate issue.

[Aren]

It fits his personality though. Alistair is a weak man who uses humor to cover his insecurities. So do you detest the character as in he is somebody you wouldn't like, or do you detest the character design?

 

 

For him to show at Redclieffe a malleability that he didn't showed in Denerim at the landsmeet  for his  GW ideals which were the reasons he wanted Loghain dead to save the archdemon and produce a bastard really seem incompatble with the way he defended those GW ideals at the Landsmeet.

where are those GW ideals now?

[Natureguy85]

 

For him to show at Redclieffe a malleability that he didn't showed in Denerim at the landsmeet  for his  GW ideals which were the reasons he wanted Loghain dead to save the archdemon and produce a bastard really seem incompatble with the way he defended those GW ideals at the Landsmeet.

where are those GW ideals now?

 

 

His GW ideals weren't why he wanted Loghain dead. It was a senior Warden that suggested saving Loghain. Alistair wanted revenge and justice, pure and simple. It was very important to him and it consumed him. That moment is an exception to his usual personality, particularly if not hardened. So you're complaining that he is acting more like normal and not like the exception at the Landsmeet.

[Aren]

His GW ideals weren't why he wanted Loghain dead. It was a senior Warden that suggested saving Loghain. Alistair wanted revenge and justice, pure and simple. It was very important to him and it consumed him. That moment is an exception to his usual personality, particularly if not hardened. So you're complaining that he is acting more like normal and not like the exception at the Landsmeet.

Alistair explicitly said to Riorden that Loghain doesn't deserve the "honor" of being a GW because he has an idealistic view of them so for him to bend on the PC manipulation and sell  his GW "honor" to save an Archdemon soul

(the same dragon who did more damages than Loghain and that actually killed Duncan) really seem like if he forgotten those ideals.

 

 

 

[ThomasBlaine]

 

Alistair explicitly said to Riorden that Loghain doesn't deserve the "honor" of being a GW because he has an idealistic view of them so for him to bend on the PC manipulation and sell  his GW "honor" to save an Archdemon soul

(the same dragon who did more damages than Loghain and that actually killed Duncan) really seem like if he forgotten those ideals.

 

Alistair is emotionally an adolescent boy. Expecting him to fully understand the concept of Grey Warden honor is a bit of a stretch. Expecting him to apply it consistently is just silly.

 

And anybody who has kids knows that it's ten times easier to talk a child around when it isn't having a tantrum.

[Natureguy85]

 

Alistair explicitly said to Riorden that Loghain doesn't deserve the "honor" of being a GW because he has an idealistic view of them so for him to bend on the PC manipulation and sell  his GW "honor" to save an Archdemon soul

(the same dragon who did more damages than Loghain and that actually killed Duncan) really seem like if he forgotten those ideals.

 

 

Yes, I remember that line. Saying to be a Grey Warden is a privilege is different from upholding the ideals of the Grey Wardens, which is what you said. The ideals of the Grey Wardens are really just "kill Darkspawn" and "kill more Darkspawn" with a small bit of "stay out of local issues." He does value being a Grey Warden and doesn't want Loghain to have any honor or redemption. He wants Loghain dead and remembered as the regicide traitor Alistair sees him as.

[Aren]

Yes, I remember that line. Saying to be a Grey Warden is a privilege is different from upholding the ideals of the Grey Wardens, which is what you said. The ideals of the Grey Wardens are really just "kill Darkspawn" and "kill more Darkspawn" with a small bit of "stay out of local issues." He does value being a Grey Warden and doesn't want Loghain to have any honor or redemption. He wants Loghain dead and remembered as the regicide traitor Alistair sees him as.

But he has no problem in giving a second chance to the Archdemon the true monster that caused the massive destruction?

 

Alistair is emotionally an adolescent boy. Expecting him to fully understand the concept of Grey Warden honor is a bit of a stretch. Expecting him to apply it consistently is just silly.

 

Alistair has never been consistently on anything in DAO.

The player may decide to craft a complete evil warden far worse than Loghain and Alistair will have no problem in following them and taking orders from them while doing much more questionable choices than in taking Loghain in the party.