1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

But he has no problem in giving a second chance to the Archdemon the true monster that caused the massive destruction?

He's distracted by his wildest fantasy: sex with Morrigan.

 

 

Alistair has never been consistently on anything in DAO.

The player may decide to craft a complete evil warden far worse than Loghain and Alistair will have no problem in following them and taking orders from them while doing much more questionable choices than in taking Loghain in the party.

I don't think it's Loghain's apparent evil that really motivates Alistair. It's the fact that Alistair sees Loghain as having deprived him of the closest thing Alistair has ever had to a family. He's not really thinking it through or applying any moral principle.

[Qun00]

Well, Alistair does make a list of everything Loghain has done when Riordan suggests that he should join.

[straykat]

I wish Alistair would leave it all Business and just talk about his ideals for Wardens. I would give him a break then.

 

This whole idea that they're his family or Duncan is his dad is ridiculous. He apparently doesn't know that Duncan was a rogue-ish thug in his youth, he mocks people like Daven who are closer in spirit to Duncan than he is, and he's only known the guy for 6 months. All of the sudden he's a father figure? Pathetic.

[Qun00]

If you talk to Alistair while you're still in Ostagar, he says it is because Duncan was the first person who's ever cared about what he wanted.

Of course, maybe that is also naive of him, considering that Duncan most likely just wanted a Grey Warden recruit. Nothing to do with the fact that Alistair wasn't happy as a would be templar.

On an unrelated note, I'm glad that Flemeth removes the OGS from Kieran. If you had any concerns or moral conflicts regarding how it affects the child, problem solved. The outcome is the same whether you did the DR or not.

[straykat]

I don't think it's the same. The kid grows up 8 or 9 years from birth with a completely different mindstate. He isn't even allowed to be a kid to begin with. Or even a person as 100% of people would perceive what a "person" would be. Or maybe 99.9%. Maybe severe schizophrenia might relate to him. If that.. most of those people fight their perceptions, not embrace them.

 

And he's messed up again by having that stripped. It's stranger than having to learn to walk again.

 

I don't see how the kid's life would be normal. He'll struggle more than other kids. And when he gets older, he's going to resent, if not outright despise his mother and father too. He'll see that whatever problems he has isn't his fault --- and he'd know where to point the finger.

[Seraphim24]

I kind of wish you could of summoned some kind of magical unicorn that just kinds of deals with the archdemon sacrifice thing and just heals everyone and makes it all better... that's my head canonical ending. 

[ThomasBlaine]

I don't think it's the same. The kid grows up 8 or 9 years from birth with a completely different mindstate. He isn't even allowed to be a kid to begin with. Or even a person as 100% of people would perceive what a "person" would be. Or maybe 99.9%. Maybe severe schizophrenia might relate to him. If that.. most of those people fight their perceptions, not embrace them.

 

And he's messed up again by having that stripped. It's stranger than having to learn to walk again.

 

I don't see how the kid's life would be normal. He'll struggle more than other kids. And when he gets older, he's going to resent, if not outright despise his mother and father too. He'll see that whatever problems he has isn't his fault --- and he'd know where to point the finger.

 

Being Morrigan's son, I expect him to be intelligent and provided with both expert tutoring and comfortable surroundings. Kids often surprise you with how quickly they adapt to new realities and revalations, both in their environment and in themselves. It's pretty much what they do. A grown man in the same position would have had it far, far worse. As it is, his prospects are better than a normal child's in this setting, and certainly better than not existing at all in the first place. Yes, obviously he would need time to adjust and the result might not be an entirely balanced individual. But then, who is?

 

I also don't remember having much of a mind myself at age 8-9. Having had to start over then wouldn't have been a huge loss to the world, to be honest.

[Aren]

He's distracted by his wildest fantasy: sex with Morrigan.

 

 

I don't think it's Loghain's apparent evil that really motivates Alistair. It's the fact that Alistair sees Loghain as having deprived him of the closest thing Alistair has ever had to a family. He's not really thinking it through or applying any moral principle.

 

Well, Alistair does make a list of everything Loghain has done when Riordan suggests that he should join.

I think you're both half right.

Alistair try to convince Riordan and the warden to kill Loghain by pointing out a list of crimes he has committed  but he did not cared for those crimes he only cared to see him dead because he had to find someone who was responsible for Duncan's death.

Alistair could have potentially commited far worse crimes than Loghain over the course of the game simply by following a more ruthless warden during the course of the campaign while obeying to their orders even being implicated into slavery support.

Use those crimes as the motivation for his own sense of guilt and revenge for having lost Duncan really bend my perspective into beleiveing that  he is a little bit of an hypocrite especially In light of deciding to allow to the Archdemon's spirit to survive 

(dragon who effectively killed Duncan and Cailan by mind-controlling an Ogre and an Alpha)  by kneeling on the Warden manipulation at Redclieffe.

 

I kind of wish you could of summoned some kind of magical unicorn that just kinds of deals with the archdemon sacrifice thing and just heals everyone and makes it all better... that's my head canonical ending. 

Aside from the lack of a horn in his head Loghain is equally valid.

[straykat]

Being Morrigan's son, I expect him to be intelligent and provided with both expert tutoring and comfortable surroundings. Kids often surprise you with how quickly they adapt to new realities and revalations, both in their environment and in themselves. It's pretty much what they do. A grown man in the same position would have had it far, far worse. As it is, his prospects are better than a normal child's in this setting, and certainly better than not existing at all in the first place. Yes, obviously he would need time to adjust and the result might not be an entirely balanced individual. But then, who is?

 

I also don't remember having much of a mind myself at age 8-9. Having had to start over then wouldn't have been a huge loss to the world, to be honest.

 

Not existing at all in the first place isn't bad. I mean, I don't lament all the people who haven't been born yet. Between him and regular Keiran though, regular Keiran is loads better. Just for simply being a kid. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

You're not giving yourself credit on that age range. A lot about one's psychology has already taken root by then and are early predictors of adulthood. If you want to take studies into account, that is. I'm not one who can't quantify it, but I'll defer to that.

[ThomasBlaine]

Not existing at all in the first place isn't bad. I mean, I don't lament all the people who haven't been born yet. Between him and regular Keiran though, regular Keiran is loads better. Just for simply being a kid. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

You're not giving yourself credit on that age range. A lot about one's psychology has already taken root by then and are early predictors of adulthood. If you want to take studies into account, that is. I'm not one who can't quantify it, but I'll defer to that.

 

Personally, I very much prefer having been born to the alternative.

[straykat]

I appreciate being alive too I just wouldn't know the difference if I wasn't born. It's not the same as dying or anything.

[ThomasBlaine]

I appreciate being alive too I just wouldn't know the difference if I wasn't born. It's not the same as dying or anything.

 

True. Kieran doesn't exist in my own canon either. 

 

It's a bit surprising that she doesn't just find and rape Alistair if the Warden refuses the Ritual.

[Aren]

 

 

And he's messed up again by having that stripped. It's stranger than having to learn to walk again.

 

I don't see how the kid's life would be normal. He'll struggle more than other kids. And when he gets older, he's going to resent, if not outright despise his mother and father too. He'll see that whatever problems he has isn't his fault --- and he'd know where to point the finger.

She didn't wanted to be possessed by Flemeth but she had no problem in letting her child to  be possessed by the archdemon....the hypocrisy is strong here.....

 

[Aren]

 

It's a bit surprising that she doesn't just find and rape Alistair if the Warden refuses the Ritual.

If we concede the point that Alistair is still alive after the Landsmeet i still don't see how she will be able to do that unless you think Alistair is so weak to not be able to defend himself against one opponent.

[Qun00]

Aside from the lack of a horn in his head Loghain is equally valid.

But then you are no longer the person who killed the archdemon. You are reduced to "the one that led the army", as Anora says it in her speech after the battle.

From epic slayer of legendary beasts to a mere military general. The Warden basically is just another Loghain now (before falling into disgrace).

How lame would it be if the Dragonborn weren't the one that destroys Alduin in Skyrim? What if Link needed someone else to step forward and deliver the final blow to Ganondorf?

No. Just no.

Truth is, there is no satisfying way for the Warden to survive.

[Natureguy85]

 

But he has no problem in giving a second chance to the Archdemon the true monster that caused the massive destruction?

 

Ha, that's a fun way to look at it. I never tried (and can't read the dialogue on the video I watched) so does the Warden actually explain that part of it to Alistair?

 

Anyway, the only way Loghain is "getting a second chance" is if you spare him and either do the ritual or the US. If he kills the Archdemon, as is the stated plan, that's his death sentence rather than beheading at the Landsmeet.

 

 

 

She didn't wanted to be possessed by Flemeth but she had no problem in letting her child to  be possessed by the archdemon....the hypocrisy is strong here.....

 

Maybe. It wouldn't be out of character, but it sounded to me as though she was saying that the child wouldn't have a soul of it's own yet at the time the archdemon was slain. That's not the case for her.

 

 

 

But then you are no longer the person who killed the archdemon. You are reduced to "the one that led the army", as Anora says it in her speech after the battle.

From epic slayer of legendary beasts to a mere military general. The Warden basically is just another Loghain now (before falling into disgrace).

How lame would it be if the Dragonborn weren't the one that destroys Alduin in Skyrim? What if Link needed someone else to step forward and deliver the final blow to Ganondorf?

No. Just no.

Truth is, there is no satisfying way for the Warden to survive.

 

I like that analysis as far as not being the one to kill the Arch Demon but I disagree with the last line. I found making Alistair king and having him do it was satisfying. I found the Dark Ritual satisfying with my Warden that romanced Morrigan, particularly looking forward to what would happen in further stories.

 

However, I would grant you that the US is probably the best way to wrap up the Warden's story within Origins itself.

[ThomasBlaine]

If we concede the point that Alistair is still alive after the Landsmeet i still don't see how she will be able to do that unless you think Alistair is so weak to not be able to defend himself against one opponent.

 

Loghain would work just as well, so her having an alternate source of reluctant insemination isn't really a point that needs conceding, And I have no doubt that if Morrigan put her mind to it she'd be able to take what she wanted without the alternate Warden's consent. Her starting spells make it clear that she's a Controller by natural inclination, sneaking into his room and paralyzing or confusing or putting a single warrior to sleep and keeping him incapacitated while she did whatever she needed to do would have been child's play. Nothing to do with him being weak.

[Xawer]

If the bald baby killer in Game of Thrones can join the Night's Watch, i suppose sparing Loghain and making him join the Grey Wardens is not that big of a deal.

 

 

But then you are no longer the person who killed the archdemon. You are reduced to "the one that led the army", as Anora says it in her speech after the battle.

From epic slayer of legendary beasts to a mere military general. The Warden basically is just another Loghain now (before falling into disgrace).

How lame would it be if the Dragonborn weren't the one that destroys Alduin in Skyrim? What if Link needed someone else to step forward and deliver the final blow to Ganondorf?

No. Just no.

Truth is, there is no satisfying way for the Warden to survive.

I just finished another playthrough yesterday with Loghain being the  one that kills the Archdemon. I don't/didn't get that impression at all. In my view he is exactly just the guy that did the last hit, nothing more. All the credit for absolutely everything goes to our Warden. He is the one that defeats the Blight and the Archdemon. All Loghain did is a little bit of  redemption. There are  many people(in-game-universe) that think he didn't  deserve even that.

You even have the opportunity to tell Anora exactly that at the celebration.

[ThomasBlaine]

If the bald baby killer in Game of Thrones can join the Night's Watch, i suppose sparing Loghain and making him join the Grey Wardens is not that big of a deal.

 

 

I just finished another playthrough yesterday with Loghain being the  one that kills the Archdemon. I don't/didn't get that impression at all. In my view he is exactly just the guy that did the last hit, nothing more. All the credit for absolutely everything goes to our Warden. He is the one that defeats the Blight and the Archdemon. All Loghain did is a little bit of  redemption. There are  many people(in-game-universe) that think he didn't  deserve even that.

You even have the opportunity to tell Anora exactly that at the celebration.

 

There's simply no way that message would have gotten out to the entire population, or even the majority of it. Loghain is shown to be very, very popular with the masses, and there are plenty of other scapegoats to go around. Loghain Mac Tir, hero of the Fereldan war of independence, betraying his King and getting bested by, what? A dwarf? An elf? A mage? Come on, don't be ridiculous.

 

And in another hundred years when they tell tales of the Grey Wardens, will they talk of the young upstart who did some nifty diplomacy or the great Hero of River Dane who slew the Archdemon Urthemiel and ended the Fifth Blight in its cradle, saving his beloved country in the process?

 

A true hero of compassion and humility accepts that history is fickle.

[Xawer]

There's simply no way that message would have gotten out to the entire population, or even the majority of it. Loghain is shown to be very, very popular with the masses, and there are plenty of other scapegoats to go around. Loghain Mac Tir, hero of the Fereldan war of independence, betraying his King and getting bested by, what? A dwarf? An elf? A mage? Come on, don't be ridiculous.

 

And in another hundred years when they tell tales of the Grey Wardens, will they talk of the young upstart who did some nifty diplomacy or the great Hero of River Dane who slew the Archdemon Urthemiel and ended the Fifth Blight in its cradle, saving his beloved country in the process?

 

A true hero of compassion and humility accepts that history is fickle.

It was my understanding that Loghain and his party,including Hawes being found traitors, morons and being disgraced and defeated was public knowledge. The same goes  with the news that he was offered the chance to join the Wardens.

 

What happened is not just some kind of secret that only people in power knew between themselves.

 

Don't forget that there was a Civil War, even if there is any amount of truth in what you said, and there isn't, it would still be nullified by the other half of Ferelden, the one that fought against the Loghain party. They would insist that the truth of what happened be spread around. Not to mention that Alistair is king and he would insist the truth to be told.

+ there is the victors write history thingy

 

There is no way Loghain would be remembered as a hero in any way shape or form as far as what happened during the 5th Blight is concerned. Quite the opposite.

Our Warden is still the man, in a Loghain ''redemption'' playthrough.

[Domakir]

There's simply no way that message would have gotten out to the entire population, or even the majority of it. Loghain is shown to be very, very popular with the masses, and there are plenty of other scapegoats to go around. Loghain Mac Tir, hero of the Fereldan war of independence, betraying his King and getting bested by, what? A dwarf? An elf? A mage? Come on, don't be ridiculous.

And in another hundred years when they tell tales of the Grey Wardens, will they talk of the young upstart who did some nifty diplomacy or the great Hero of River Dane who slew the Archdemon Urthemiel and ended the Fifth Blight in its cradle, saving his beloved country in the process?

A true hero of compassion and humility accepts that history is fickle.

Let's be realistic, they will talk about the warden just for the simple fact that he/she is the protagonist or they won't talk about it at all.

[Xawer]

Let's be realistic, they will talk about the warden just for the simple fact that he/she is the protagonist.

There is no evidence of this.

Everything inside the game points towards the Warden being the epic hero.

[Natureguy85]

Is it not automatic that the epilogue tells you Loghain was remembered as a hero if he killed the Archdemon?

[Xawer]

Is it not automatic that the epilogue tells you Loghain was remembered as a hero if he killed the Archdemon?

The only mention is Anora saying he got redemption at the celebration by last hiting the archdemon. He wasn't even mentioned in my Epilogue.

[ThomasBlaine]

It was my understanding that Loghain and his party,including Hawes being found traitors, morons and being disgraced and defeated was public knowledge. The same goes with with the news that he was offered the chance to join the Wardens.

 

"Public knowledge" doesn't mean what you think it does in a medieval society. Imagine if all the news you heard were relayed to you entirely through innocent smalltalk with others who had only heard it through innocent smalltalk with others who had only heard it through innocent smalltalk with someone who might have heard the equivalent of a town crier say something about something while they were busy getting on with their day, none of whom knew or cared anything about politics.

 

No print, no fact-checking, nothing at all to make things clear or filter out the misinformation of braggarts and idiots and outright propaganda in the mind of the average peasant who would know nothing about the workings of upper society except that they're a bunch of ****s always making trouble for everyone.

 

Now consider that Loghain, the celebrated national hero uniquely loved by peasants for his humble origins and his heroism saving them all from the dirty Orlesians, has spent an entire year campaigning to ruin the Grey Wardens' image everywhere in the country.

 

What is it specifically about the ending that convinces you that you're the epic hero to Ferelden's people? People in the know are well aware of what you've done, and what Loghain has done, but those are an absolutely miniscule percentage. The rest are just cheering because they're alive.

 

Let's be realistic, they will talk about the warden just for the simple fact that he/she is the protagonist or they won't talk about it at all.

 

That's an interesting idea of "being realistic" you have there.