1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Domakir]

That's an interesting idea of "being realistic" you have there.

You know what I mean. xD

[Xawer]

"Public knowledge" doesn't mean what you think it does in a medieval society. Imagine if all the news you heard were relayed to you entirely through innocent smalltalk with others who had only heard it through innocent smalltalk with others who had only heard it through innocent smalltalk with someone who might have heard the equivalent of a town crier say something about something while they were busy getting on with their day, none of whom knew or cared anything about politics.

 

No print, no fact-checking, nothing at all to make things clear or filter out the misinformation of braggarts and idiots and outright propaganda in the mind of the average peasant who would know nothing about the workings of upper society except that they're a bunch of ****s always making trouble for everyone.

 

Now consider that Loghain, the celebrated national hero uniquely loved by peasants for his humble origins and his heroism saving them all from the dirty Orlesians, has spent an entire year campaigning to ruin the Grey Wardens' image everywhere in the country.

 

What is it specifically about the ending that convices you that you're the epic hero to Ferelden's people? People in the know are well aware of what you've done, and what Loghain has done, but those are an absolutely miniscule percentage. The rest are just cheering because they're alive.

In-game Gossip, inn rumors, common sense and what Anora says at the celebration.

 

Considering how the people in-game react to you, i would say this '' propaganda'' you speak of that Loghain has supposedly conducted is pure conjecture. The people that hated you were strictly part of the Loghain party and his subordinates. And we kill most of them by the time the Landsmeet happens and even his devoted Ser Cauthrien doubts him. Either way she is either persuaded or killed.

 

You make it sound like you are in hostile country during the main Origins game. Loghain's influence in Ferelden was not that big in the first place. Don't forget there was a Civil War.

 

Now you consider an eternity of Alistair as King and the Anti Loghain party as a victors, campaigning to tell the truth of what happened.

[Qun00]

There's simply no way that message would have gotten out to the entire population, or even the majority of it. Loghain is shown to be very, very popular with the masses, and there are plenty of other scapegoats to go around. Loghain Mac Tir, hero of the Fereldan war of independence, betraying his King and getting bested by, what? A dwarf? An elf? A mage? Come on, don't be ridiculous.

And in another hundred years when they tell tales of the Grey Wardens, will they talk of the young upstart who did some nifty diplomacy or the great Hero of River Dane who slew the Archdemon Urthemiel and ended the Fifth Blight in its cradle, saving his beloved country in the process?

A true hero of compassion and humility accepts that history is fickle.

Exactly. "The HoF defeated the archdemon and then Loghain helped a little" just won't stick.

As far as people are concerned, the one who delivered the final blow is the one responsible for the beast's death.

[Xawer]

Exactly. "The HoF defeated the archdemon and then Loghain helped a little" just won't stick.

As far as people are concerned, the one who delivered the final blow is the one responsible for the beast's death.

Loghain neither doesn't help, nor he helps.

 

All he does is get redemption. The HoF is still the Warden.

 

You guys are making it sound like when people mention the HoF in DA2 and Inquisition, they mean Loghain or something.

 

Not sure from where this glory thief paranoia comes from. There isn't any evidence of that in any DA game.

Maybe the Morrigan attempt to pull your strings before the Ritual?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Let's be realistic, they will talk about the warden just for the simple fact that he/she is the protagonist or they won't talk about it at all.

That first one does seem to be the way things went judging by the Codex. (I haven't yet read the way it comes out in a Redeemer World-State, but I haven't heard it's any different.)

 

I can grant you that ThomasBlaine's theory is how you'd expect it to work, but it doesn't seem to have worked that way.

[Natureguy85]

That's an interesting idea of "being realistic" you have there.

 

I think you misunderstand him. I think he means this idea:

 

Another way to look at it is that amazing things don't happen to the main characters because they're the main characters — rather, they're the main characters because amazing things happen to them. If they weren't remarkable people with remarkable feats and tales to their name, there wouldn't be a story about them and you wouldn't be hearing it in the first place.

[Xawer]

It's called redemption for a reason. If he got redeemed, then he must have done some terrible stuff. Hence i  am pretty sure people would know that if the Loghain party won the Civil War, the Blight and the Archdemon would have won. All the credit goes to the HoF in the history books, otherwise he wouldn't be called that.

[ThomasBlaine]

In-game Gossip, inn rumors, common sense and what Anora says at the celebration.

 

Considering how the people in-game react to you, i would say this '' propaganda'' you speak of that Loghain has supposedly conducted is pure conjecture. The people that hated you were strictly part of the Loghain party and his subordinates. And we kill most of them by the time the Landsmeet happens and even his devoted Ser Cauthrien doubts him. Either way she is either persuaded or killed.

 

Now you consider an eternity of Alistair as King and the Anti Loghain party as a victors, campaigning to tell the truth of what happened.

 

I can assure you that no gossip, tavern tales or personal suspicions will ever accurately reflect what you and Loghain respectively got up to during the Blight. And what Anora says at the celebration she says entirely to the high nobility and a couple of guards. Yes, that'll totally inform everyone.

 

Loghain's efforts to defame the Grey Wardens are canon, and explicitly stated several times. That most people you talk to don't actually give a damn speaks in my favor. The average person just doesn't know and just doesn't care, and usually goes with simplest and most appealing explanation if anything at all.

 

What's Alistair going to do? Stand at the top of Fort Drakon and scream "I HATE LOGHAIN!!" at the top of his lungs? Again, yes, that'll surely inform everyone.

 

You guys are making it sound like when people mention the HoF in DA2 and Inquisition, they mean Loghain or something.

 

Not sure from where this glory thief paranoia comes from. There isn't any evidence of that in any DA game.

Maybe the Morrigan attempt to pull your strings before the Ritual?

 

People who mention the HoF in subsequent games are invariably those who personally knew him/her and members of intelligence agencies. Hardly those you pick off the street for a survey. Do you ever hear cheers of "Hail the Grey Warden! Hail the Hero of Ferelden" from random passerbys on the streets of Kirkwall? In Amaranthine? I didn't think so.

 

It's got nothing to do with glory thief paranoia, I just don't care about my Warden being recorded in the canals of history as a legendary hero whose kung fu is the stuff of legends just to polish off my ego. Loghain getting most of the credit and the Warden passing into relative obscurity is much more realistic, nothing in the games actually contradict it and it makes the ending more interesting than just "Welcome to the You Saved The World party! Autographs in five minutes."

 

Also, Loghain is one of my favorite characters and I don't begrudge him the attention just because of an unfortunate call or two.

 

That first one does seem to be the way things went judging by the Codex. (I haven't yet read the way it comes out in a Redeemer World-State, but I haven't heard it's any different.)

 

Which codex do you mean? What does it say, specifically?

 

I think you misunderstand him. I think he means this idea:

 

Another way to look at it is that amazing things don't happen to the main characters because they're the main characters — rather, they're the main characters because amazing things happen to them. If they weren't remarkable people with remarkable feats and tales to their name, there wouldn't be a story about them and you wouldn't be hearing it in the first place.

 

I know what he meant, the combination of "Let's be realistic" and essentially "the universe revolves around my guy" was just hilarious.

 

It's called redemption for a reason. If he got redeemed, then he must have done some terrible stuff. Hence i  am pretty sure people would know that if the Loghain party won the Civil War, the Blight and the Archdemon would have won. All the credit goes to the HoF in the history books, otherwise he wouldn't be called that.

 

Just because the game interface mentions him as redeeming himself doesn't make that take on events the consensus among the Fereldan population. And no, your average guy would have no idea what would have happened if Loghain's party hadn't been overthrown, or even that they actually were overthrown.

[Xawer]

Loghain's efforts to defame the Grey Wardens are canon, and explicitly stated several times.

I rather meant the effectiveness of those efforts.

* * *

I specifically remember gossip about Loghain deserving to be hanged instead of joining the Gray Wardens. + inn rumors about about how the people hate Loghain and don't want him as a regent even before the Landsmeet.So in my view that settles the debate about how much the common man knows.

 

The function of these gossips and rumors is for the player to see how his actions effect the world, me thinks.

 

And then there is the Civil War, in which a huge chunk of Ferelden actively and with arms, oppose him.

 

Loghain is basically completely disgraced in the eyes of the whole country after the Landsmeet. Gray Warden or no.

 

I would even go as far as saying that him last hiting the Archdemon doesn't improve his status much in the eyes of the people, having in mind how much he screw up before that.

 

* * *

The bit about Alistair was funny.

[Aren]

But then you are no longer the person who killed the archdemon. You are reduced to "the one that led the army", as Anora says it in her speech after the battle.

From epic slayer of legendary beasts to a mere military general. The Warden basically is just another Loghain now (before falling into disgrace).

How lame would it be if the Dragonborn weren't the one that destroys Alduin in Skyrim? What if Link needed someone else to step forward and deliver the final blow to Ganondorf?

No. Just no.

Truth is, there is no satisfying way for the Warden to survive.

Spoiler

[ThomasBlaine]

I rather meant the effectiveness of those efforts.

* * *

I specifically remember gossip about Loghain deserving to be hanged instead of joining the Gray Wardens. + inn rumors about about how the people hate Loghain and don't want him as a regent even before the Landsmeet.So in my view that settles the debate about how much the common man knows.

 

Loghain is basically completely disgraced in the eyes of the whole country after the Landsmeet.

 

As did I. As stated in the line riiiiight below the one you quoted.

 

Where and when do you hear this gossip and these inn rumours, and what "specifically" do they say?

[Aren]

Loghain would work just as well, so her having an alternate source of reluctant insemination isn't really a point that needs conceding, And I have no doubt that if Morrigan put her mind to it she'd be able to take what she wanted without the alternate Warden's consent. Her starting spells make it clear that she's a Controller by natural inclination, sneaking into his room and paralyzing or confusing or putting a single warrior to sleep and keeping him incapacitated while she did whatever she needed to do would have been child's play. Nothing to do with him being weak.

Because when a man is sleeping or paralyzed his boy is still functional......

[Xawer]

 

 

Where and when do you hear this gossip and these inn rumours, and what "specifically" do they say?

the inn rumor was just before you enter the landsmeet, denerim inn

the gossip was  by the 2 humans outside of Orzammar, which i visited for side quests before the final fight.

 

Though it doesn't really matter, it's the same in all locations.

 

I can't actually quote them unless i start loading old saves.

[Qun00]

Spoiler

https://www.youtube....h?v=9JVNdsyjU5A

Here.

[ThomasBlaine]

Because when a man is sleeping or paralyzed his boy is still functional......

 

Well. Yes. Assuming you're a guy too, that can't possibly be a surprise to you.

 

the inn rumor was just before you enter the landsmeet, denerim inn

the gossip was  by the 2 humans outside of Orzammar, which i visited for side quests before the final fight.

 

I can't actually quote them unless i start loading old saves.

 

 

I'll keep my ears open when I get that far in my current playthrough. Not being able to comment on what is actually said, the Gnawed Noble in Denerim caters to nobility, not commoners, and the words of two guys standing outside Orzammar don't reflect Loghain's general image in South Reach, or West Hill, or in Gwaren where he has ruled for three decades.

 

Granted, his association with Howe has probably cost him a few points in Highever if the Couslands really were as popular as they're made out to be.

[Aren]

Loghain neither doesn't help, nor he helps.

 

All he does is get redemption. The HoF is still the Warden.

 

You guys are making it sound like when people mention the HoF in DA2 and Inquisition, they mean Loghain or something.

 

Not sure from where this glory thief paranoia comes from. There isn't any evidence of that in any DA game.

Maybe the Morrigan attempt to pull your strings before the Ritual?

The Warden is the main reason the Archdemon is dead and everyone is kissing his feet while completely ignoring Loghain. I guess Morrigans prediction was ultra extremely wrong when she played on his pride, saying that "Warden will just be one unknown warden who helped mighty Loghain defeat blight".

Considering above; why the heck would you pull US or DR just for honor of stabbing that critter in the head?

Cailan and his  polished daddy sword for archdemons syndrome

[Aren]

Well. Yes. Assuming you're a guy too, that can't possibly be a surprise to you.

 

 

I think that's nonsensical on so many level.

1)Assuming that she can erase memories from those GW she could supposedly rape...

2)Assuming that the warden or anyone will not go into Loghain or Alistair room to speak to them

(and gameplay wise the player has  access to their room)

3)Assuming that those GW wouldn't be able to defend themselves from Morrigan spells.

4)assuming that she can perform the ritual and at the same time maintain a person into paralysis.

If and only if all those points can be evaded than the idea may work but Gameplay wise if the ritual is refused she can't do anything.

 

[ThomasBlaine]

 

I think that's nonsensical on so many level.

1)Assuming that she can erase memories from those GW she could supposedly rape...

2)Assuming that the warden or anyone will not go into Loghain or Alistair room to speak to them

(and gameplay wise the player has  access to their room)

3)Assuming that those GW wouldn't be able to defend themselves from Morrigan spells.

4)assuming that she can perform the ritual and at the same time maintain a person into paralysis.

If and only if all those points can be evaded than the idea may work but Gameplay wise if the ritual is refused she can't do anything.

 

 

 

1) She could make sure they never regained consciousness throughout, or just leave them confused, disoriented and unable to make sense of the episode.

2) She could, gee, I don't know, wait for people to go to bed? Lock the door? The risk of someone walking in on her and Alistair/Loghain is no greater than the risk of someone walking in on her and the Warden.

3) Morrigan's spells work pretty reliably on people everywhere in Ferelden, even templars and dwarves. I don't see why Alistair or Loghain in particular would enjoy special immunities, especially not if she surprised them.

4) If she can perform the ritual while having sex then she can perform the ritual while having sex and casting the occasional spell. In fact, it might be easier and quicker to get the Grey Warden in question to... release... by controlling his thoughts and dreams than it would during conventional intercourse where he would be uncomfortable, distracted and on guard with her.

 

There, points "evaded". I'm certain the idea would work given Morrigan's capabilities. If the ritual is refused she still has either Alistair or Loghain and Riordan, and potentially all three to turn to, that much is undeniable, and there are definitely ways she could get what she wanted out of one of them. It's curious that she doesn't try.

[Aren]

1) She could make sure they never regained consciousness throughout, or just leave them confused, disoriented and unable to make sense of the episode.

2) She could, gee, I don't know, wait for people to go to bed? Lock the door? The risk of someone walking in on her and Alistair/Loghain is no greater than the risk of someone walking in on her and the Warden.

3) Morrigan's spells work pretty reliably on people everywhere in Ferelden, even templars and dwarves. I don't see why Alistair or Loghain in particular would enjoy special immunities, especially not if she surprised them.

4) If she can perform the ritual while having sex then she can perform the ritual while having sex and casting the occasional spell. In fact, it might be easier and quicker to get the Grey Warden in question to... release... by controlling his thoughts and dreams than it would during conventional intercourse where he would be uncomfortable, distracted and on guard with her.

 

There, points "evaded". I'm certain the idea would work given Morrigan's capabilities. If the ritual is refused she still has either Alistair or Loghain and Riordan, and potentially all three to turn to, that much is undeniable, and there are definitely ways she could get what she wanted out of one of them. It's curious that she doesn't try.

1)Assuming she know a spell to erase memories which i have no evidence about since her specialization is shapeshifting

2)Assuming than Alistair /Loghain remain in their room rather than decide to go on downstairs with all the others and yes they don't sleep in Redclieffe.

3)I don't know maybe because they are in their room in full battle array and Loghain would never allow her to approach him closely since he don't trust her?

4)Assuming she can actually paralyze two wardens who can possibly know templars ability of magic dispel.

 

When the ritual is refused the warden can intimidate Morrigan with menace to kill her on the spot

(she has a plot armor there since the warden don't attack her in the room) remaining around the castle to try to use the others wardens would be certain death.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Which codex do you mean? What does it say, specifically?

The Hero of Ferelden Codex describes your PC, regardless of who died or even if anyone did. And if the Codex for the Fifth Blight is different if Alistair or Loghain died than if the Warden did the DR, the wiki doesn't reflect it. (If my PS3 was plugged in and handy I'd check my Sacrificed Alistair playthrough to be sure, but it's not.)

 

Combine that with the fact that Threnn seems to be your quartermaster no matter who's in charge and who died (if Loghain was in good odor you'd expect her not to be there,) and Alistair acting like the Hero of Ferelden is the big draw if you meet him as a Warden, and it really seems like the Warden is remembered as the leader under all circumstances.

[Qun00]

Now consider that Loghain, the celebrated national hero uniquely loved by peasants for his humble origins and his heroism saving them all from the dirty Orlesians, has spent an entire year campaigning to ruin the Grey Wardens' image everywhere in the country.

What is it specifically about the ending that convinces you that you're the epic hero to Ferelden's people? People in the know are well aware of what you've done, and what Loghain has done, but those are an absolutely miniscule percentage. The rest are just cheering because they're alive.

Ending the Blight and saving the world is far more impressive than winning back a country's independence.

You always keeps going on and on about how obvious it is that Loghain's accomplishments are greater than the Hero of Ferelden's.

I... just don't see it. There is a large gap.

And it seems the strength of Loghain worship is overstimated. Ten years later, his first response when the Inquisitor asks about his past is "The traitor teyrn. Yes, I've heard all the names". That sounds like a man who is used to living in disgrace.

It is equally interesting that you say only people who personally knew the Warden mention him. The only npcs that ever praise Loghain are his subordinates.

Meanwhile, we have Nathaniel who isn't just bitter about his father's death but also the fact that his killer is famous. I believe the line was "Here comes our hero, vanquisher of all evil".

Ariane says she heard about you in Witch Hunt.

There is an adoring crowd waiting outside after the new ruler delivers the speech.

Jerrik Dace mentions in his letter that the Warden's accomplishments are the reason why he decided to ask him for help.

Carver mentions the Hero of Ferelden when he writes to Hawke.

In The Masked Empire, Celene speaks of the Warden's involvement in saving the Circle tower.

During party banter, Tallis brings up the fact that Hawke is Fereldan and asks him if he's ever met the Warden. She doesn't even live in the south.

[straykat]

Militarily, sure... I might agree. Some of the stuff he does is pretty cool and would be remembered in real life.

 

But since this is a high fantasy story, it doesn't mean much. When you write "save the world" plots all the time, nothing else has any meaning. That goes for everything, beyond Loghain.

 

And people wonder why I hate Inquisition.

[Aren]

Militarily, sure... I might agree. Some of the stuff he does is pretty cool and would be remembered in real life.

 

But since this is a high fantasy story, it doesn't mean much. When you write "save the world" plots all the time, nothing else has any meaning. That goes for everything, beyond Loghain.

 

And people wonder why I hate Inquisition.

Where's the glory in repeating what others have done?

Saving the world of Thedas it has become ordinary administration by now and  I think that making a lemon soda is actually more glorious.

[ThomasBlaine]

 

1)Assuming she know a spell to erase memories which i have no evidence about since her specialization is shapeshifting

2)Assuming than Alistair /Loghain remain in their room rather than decide to go on downstairs with all the others and yes they don't sleep in Redclieffe.

3)I don't know maybe because they are in their room in full battle array and Loghain would never allow her to approach him closely since he don't trust her?

4)Assuming she can actually paralyze two wardens who can possibly know templars ability of magic dispel.

 

When the ritual is refused the warden can intimidate Morrigan with menace to kill her on the spot

(she has a plot armor there since the warden don't attack her in the room) remaining around the castle to try to use the others wardens would be certain death.

 

1) Why would she need to erase memories when she can keep someone entirely unconscious?

2) Of course they sleep at Redcliffe. You don't march your huge army out in the middle of the night, it would be a nightmare to coordinate and burn everyone out before midday, and notice that the army reaches Denerim by evening of the next day if the "performed on the eve of battle" part of Morrigan's spiel is anything to go by.

3) Morrigan's spells, aside from working, also work perfectly well from across the room on armored targets. There's simply no way either of them could resist her if she chose to put them under.

4) Morrigan's spells are only marginally less likely to succeed on Templars, I've had her freezing and paralyzing and immobilizing them in half a dozen different ways on several occasions in this playthrough alone, and her stories of her and Flemeth toying with them make it clear that they don't frighten her.

5) At worst she'll be forced to make her escape, already intending to leave if she doesn't get her way somehow, and if it succeeds she gets the Old God Baby she's been fighting for a whole year to get her hands on. You've most likely faced far worse odds with her staunchly at your side just to get to this point. Why is it not worth at least a try?

 

(The developers might also have thought that the Warden getting the option to immediately strike down a longtime companion and comrade in arms for propositioning them for sex would cross a line or two.)

 

The Hero of Ferelden Codex describes your PC, regardless of who died or even if anyone did. And if the Codex for the Fifth Blight is different if Alistair or Loghain died than if the Warden did the DR, the wiki doesn't reflect it. (If my PS3 was plugged in and handy I'd check my Sacrificed Alistair playthrough to be sure, but it's not.)

 

Combine that with the fact that Threnn seems to be your quartermaster no matter who's in charge and who died (if Loghain was in good odor you'd expect her not to be there,) and Alistair acting like the Hero of Ferelden is the big draw if you meet him as a Warden, and it really seems like the Warden is remembered as the leader under all circumstances.

 

Why would you not expect Threnn to join the Inquisition thirteen years later if Loghain was no longer popular? And of course Alistair acts like the HoF is the main hero. Why wouldn't he regardless of Loghain's reputation?

 

Ending the Blight and saving the world is far more impressive than winning back a country's independence.

You always keeps going on and on about how obvious it is that Loghain's accomplishments are greater than the Hero of Ferelden's.

I... just don't see it. There is a large gap.

And it seems the strength of Loghain worship is overstimated. Ten years later, his first response when the Inquisitor asks about his past is "The traitor teyrn. Yes, I've heard all the names". That sounds like a man who is used to living in disgrace.

It is equally interesting that you say only people who personally knew the Warden mention him. The only npcs that ever praise Loghain are his subordinates.

Meanwhile, we have Nathaniel who isn't just bitter about his father's death but also the fact that his killer is famous. I believe the line was "Here comes our hero, vanquisher of all evil".

Ariane says she heard about you in Witch Hunt.

There is an adoring crowd waiting outside after the new ruler delivers the speech.

Jerrik Dace mentions in his letter that the Warden's accomplishments are the reason why he decided to ask him for help.

Carver mentions the Hero of Ferelden when he writes to Hawke.

In The Masked Empire, Celene speaks of the Warden's involvement in saving the Circle tower.

During party banter, Tallis brings up the fact that Hawke is Fereldan and asks him if he's ever met the Warden. She doesn't even live in the south.

 

I do not "go on and on" about any such thing. Facilitating the ending of the Blight and saving Ferelden is indeed "greater" than ending a hellish century-long occupation, but public perception is a different thing altogether.

 

Alright, you have enough examples that I didn't remember to convince me that the HoF isn't exactly rendered obscure within a decade. Duncan himself believes Loghain to be the deciding factor in the campaign at Ostagar even though the man despises him, I vaguely remember Alistair making similar remarks before the battle, and the textbook for the PnP game explicitly states Loghain to be a national hero admired by peasants throughout Ferelden for his common origins.

 

And I have no doubt that the HoF is more famous than Loghain among the Qunari, considering Sten. That doesn't say much, though. And again, Tallis is a spy.

 

Militarily, sure... I might agree. Some of the stuff he does is pretty cool and would be remembered in real life.

 

But since this is a high fantasy story, it doesn't mean much. When you write "save the world" plots all the time, nothing else has any meaning. That goes for everything, beyond Loghain.

 

And people wonder why I hate Inquisition.

 

That's a fair point for what it is, but thinking about my character as some cookie cutter hero getting a cookie cutter hero's reward in a cookie cutter fantasy world makes me want to puke, and I think that there's sufficient evidence that Fereldan citizens in general don't consider recognizing and worshipping heroes the point of their existence.

[straykat]

 

Where's the glory in repeating what others have done?

Saving the world of Thedas it has become ordinary administration by now and  I think that making a lemon soda is actually more glorious.

 

 

I love lemonade. Not sure about lemon soda... Pretty good?

 

 

 

 

That's a fair point for what it is, but thinking about my character as some cookie cutter hero getting a cookie cutter hero's reward in a cookie cutter fantasy world makes me want to puke, and I think that there's sufficient evidence that Fereldan citizens in general don't consider recognizing and worshipping heroes the point of their existence.

 

Well, I don't want you to be a cookie cutter hero myself. I was actually hoping Inquisition would tone it down a bit. After DA2 and Asunder, I expected more politics and war and intrigue. Instead, people wanted another Warden... or something even more. A messiah type in the first hour, with global cataclysms that had nothing to do with intrigue and the wars regular people engage in. I'm not just disappointed in Bioware, but the large majority of fans who like this sort of thing...and demanded it... and rejected Bioware for trying to do something different. That stuff is fun to a point, but damn.