1807 réponses à ce sujet

[Eclesis]

eschilde wrote...

Maybe it's only the Chantry that says the Old Gods are evil, but whether you think the _Archdemon_ is evil or not, it's definitely causing huge problems (you know, that little thing they call the Blight) and it needs to be gotten rid of. I'm not sure giving it another incarnation, if that's even what happening, is something justifiable by anyone, especially a Grey Warden, regardless of whether or not it's tainted. Basically, it's a case of an evil you know vs. something completely unknown. 

My point with Morrigan is simply that she's got issues and any kid she raises is likely going to end up the same.

And sometimes it may be worth taking a chance at the unknown. Everything we have says the Old Gods are tainted to become Archdemons, it's just a matter of whether you believe that it can be purified. If it can be purified, destroying it out of hand means you lose the potential from whatever else it might become. Obviously the Old God may be malevolent, too, but again that's not a guarantee. The Archdemon (= Blight) is gone. Whether it becomes one again because you spared the soul or not, we don't know that; killing it when it supposedly has a chance to become reincarnated as a different creature because it might become an Archdemon again doesn't feel so clear-cut to me. It reminds me of the Brecilian Forest plot - if the werewolves are cured, do you kill them anyway just to make sure they don't revert?

I'm not bringing up Morrigan's child-rearing abilities or anything, just saying that most of this depends on how much you trust her motivations or knowledge of what she's doing.

[Brimleydower]

I doubt there's any risk of Morrigan's child becoming another Archdemon. After all, it takes the Darkspawn discovering a trapped and sleeping Old God to bring about Blights in the first place. Taking Morrigan at face value, she just feels this is something worth preserving. That's a load of hogwash, more likely than not, and she intends to follow in mama's footsteps by possessing a body. Just so happens that she's going to do it with an Old God.



Is the choice evil? Depends on who you ask. Your end goal was accomplished the same, with less loss of life to go around. As to the Wardens from around the world who want to complain, I couldn't imagine anyone in Ferelden at that point in the game not simply saying "Go **** yourselves." They had an eternity to march their asses down to Denerim and take part in this, but they decided Ferelden (which by all accounts was now bereft of Grey Wardens) could fend for itself while they sat on their laurels in their own homelands. If they want to bark about duty and obligations, they can look no further than themselves when wishing to dole out punishments and criticism.



I've played the game through both endings. I think morally it's just a shade of Grey (tee hee, tee hee, sorry!) The Blight ends regardless, and the end result is essentially the shame. The Chantry, no doubt, would view it as blasphemy of the highest sort, but they're also medicating their entire military branch to such an extent that they're going crazy from prolonged consumption. The only opinions that matter in the end belong to the enlightened race of Ferelden: the mabari. And maybe Sten.



If you want to talk about corruption and evil choices, the options given to you by Avernus in Warden's Keep are a lot more easily pegged as evil. "Hay thar, buddy! I can extend our lives and maybe eliminate the side effects of the Taint! I just need a legion of Grey 'Dens to expurriment on, playze!"

[eschilde]

Is the choice evil? Depends on who you ask. Your end goal was accomplished the same, with less loss of life to go around. As to the Wardens from around the world who want to complain, I couldn't imagine anyone in Ferelden at that point in the game not simply saying "Go **** yourselves." They had an eternity to march their asses down to Denerim and take part in this, but they decided Ferelden (which by all accounts was now bereft of Grey Wardens) could fend for itself while they sat on their laurels in their own homelands. If they want to bark about duty and obligations, they can look no further than themselves when wishing to dole out punishments and criticism.

That's not really their fault, Loghain stopped them from being able to come. Can't really be helped that they were coming from Orlais, or that they were Wardens.



Speaking from a meta-game perspective, I really can't see a follow-up to demon baby where s/he grows up, goes to college, gets married and lives in the house with two kids, a mabari hound and a white picket fence. Just sayin'.

[Taleroth]

eschilde wrote...

did you do it because you honestly thought saving the Old God was better for the world

There is very little to support someone's thinking this. You don't have any knowledge, really, of what an Old God actually is. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that very few, if anyone, would have allowed Morrigan to get away with this scheme if it didn't save your lives.

Does one have to know?  Take a risk, man!  Take a risk!

For every negative outcome someone speculates on, I can speculate something beautiful.  Click your heels together and believe!

[Brimleydower]

I doubt there's any risk of Morrigan's child becoming another Archdemon. After all, it takes the Darkspawn discovering a trapped and sleeping Old God to bring about Blights in the first place. Taking Morrigan at face value, she just feels this is something worth preserving. That's a load of hogwash, more likely than not, and she intends to follow in mama's footsteps by possessing a body. Just so happens that she's going to do it with an Old God.



Is the choice evil? Depends on who you ask. Your end goal was accomplished the same, with less loss of life to go around. As to the Wardens from around the world who want to complain, I couldn't imagine anyone in Ferelden at that point in the game not simply saying "Go **** yourselves." They had an eternity to march their asses down to Denerim and take part in this, but they decided Ferelden (which by all accounts was now bereft of Grey Wardens) could fend for itself while they sat on their laurels in their own homelands. If they want to bark about duty and obligations, they can look no further than themselves when wishing to dole out punishments and criticism.



I've played the game through both endings. I think morally it's just a shade of Grey (tee hee, tee hee, sorry!) The Blight ends regardless, and the end result is essentially the shame. The Chantry, no doubt, would view it as blasphemy of the highest sort, but they're also medicating their entire military branch to such an extent that they're going crazy from prolonged consumption. The only opinions that matter in the end belong to the enlightened race of Ferelden: the mabari. And maybe Sten.



If you want to talk about corruption and evil choices, the options given to you by Avernus in Warden's Keep are a lot more easily pegged as evil. "Hay thar, buddy! I can extend our lives and maybe eliminate the side effects of the Taint! I just need a legion of Grey 'Dens to expurriment on, playze!"

[eschilde]

Does one have to know?

Yes.

Take a risk, man! Take a risk!

No.



(That said, I did do it to save my human noble so she could get married to Alistair and live happily ever after.. but damned if I didn't know I'd probably be killing his bastard demon child in the next game.)

[Taleroth]

eschilde wrote...

Does one have to know?

Yes.

Take a risk, man! Take a risk!

No.

(That said, I did do it to save my human noble so she could get married to Alistair and live happily ever after.. but damned if I didn't know I'd probably be killing his bastard demon child in the next game.)

  But what if you're killing our chance for peace?!

[marshalleck]

My human noble was never really completely on board with the whole Warden thing in the first place. Yes, I accepted the terms I was offered--survive my immediate predicament, go fight the Blight. I was told nothing of the "side effects" shall we call them. My obligation was fulfilled, tradition be damned.



And the resurrection of an Old God? I never cared much for Chantry ways, and if it's good and important enough for Morrigan then it's good and important enough for me.

[DaySeeker]

Uh. I really don't see how anyone can wonder about Morrigan's motives. If they were anything but selfish she would explain them to you or give you a choice about child rearing or give up the child to someone else (Wynne comes to mind). She comes to you at your biggest moment of weakness and vulnerability and gives you five minutes to make a decision involving saving your own life, something she knew you could lose since the beginning and she kept it from you. Whether or not the spirit is Old God or not all it is to Morrigan is power. Casting aspersions on the Chantry because they are religious also seems silly, we found the urn and the guardian, both of which seemed very much on the good side. Leli is big on the Chantry and I rather like her world view. Every organization has corruption that does not mean the whole thing is corrupt. Morrigan we know is corrupt. She cares nothing for you and ditches right before the big battle. My noble got the grimoire and never gave them to her because he never trusted her, and kept her close to keep an eye on her.

[marshalleck]

The way I see it is the Old Gods have been locked away for millenia, and in the meantime the world has pretty much gone to seed. Restoring an Old God could help put things back in balance.

In fact I'd be up for more rituals with Morrigan to get the other two.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 décembre 2009 - 05:37 .

[RunCDFirst]

marshalleck wrote...

The way I see it is the Old Gods have been locked away for millenia, and in the meantime the world has pretty much gone to seed. Restoring an Old God could help put things back in balance.

In fact I'd be up for more rituals with Morrigan to get the other two.

And Grandma Flemeth will be there too as a strong moral compass guiding both Morrigan and God Baby down the path of self-sacrifice and virtue as shining examples for the betterment of humanity!

There's hopefuly, then there's delusional.

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 02 décembre 2009 - 05:40 .

[marshalleck]

Self-sacrifice a virtue? Anything that gets one dead isn't what I'd call virtuous; I call it foolish.

[Eonassassin]

A Grey Wardens job is to end the blight, and as far as I can tell the blight was stopped and the archdemon was killed

(yes yes I know I chose sacrificing myself my first playthrough, but at the end of the second playthrough when I did the ritual and became the king, it was much much more satisfying)

edit* 
And this way I can find Morrigan!

Modifié par Eonassassin, 02 décembre 2009 - 05:45 .

[RunCDFirst]

marshalleck wrote...

Self-sacrifice a virtue? Anything that gets one dead isn't what I'd call virtuous; I call it foolish.

You just made Andraste a very sad girl. How could you?<_<

Helping someone is considered a good thing is it not? Then would not helping someone at the expense of oneself be more virtuous? Then would not helping another by giving up yourself be most virtuous?

It's a rather standard virtue whether you appreciate it or not. If someone wants to sacrifice their life for me, all the power to them!

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 02 décembre 2009 - 05:52 .

[marshalleck]

Andraste didn't really sacrifice herself though, yeah? She got betrayed.

Also, I guess I should be more clear. Sacrifice when there is another way is foolish. And we could quibble over the definition of sacrifice as well; for example. If I threw myself at a bear to protect my wife and infant child, one could consider that noble sacrifice. But the impulse there isn't suicidal; if you can find a way to survive such circumstances, you should, because surely your survival is preferable for your wife and child than your untimely demise.

Likewise, Alistair is an idiot and he really shouldn't be left alone with the kingdom and the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 décembre 2009 - 06:00 .

[RunCDFirst]

marshalleck wrote...

Andraste didn't really sacrifice herself though, yeah? She got betrayed.

Why must you go and ruin her moment? She burned for you man. She Burned For You!

[Ulicus]

DaySeeker wrote...

Uh. I really don't see how anyone can wonder about Morrigan's motives. If they were anything but selfish she would explain them to you or give you a choice about child rearing or give up the child to someone else (Wynne comes to mind).

I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. If you've romanced (and possibly if you've befriended her, too) her, it's pretty clear that she doesn't *want* to leave but - for whatever reason - *has* to leave. We don't know why this is. 

PC: "Morrigan, I don't want to lose you."
Morrigan: "Don't be a fool... I am already lost. I told you that you would regret this, did I not?" (wtte)
(Just a shame you can't get that exchange in the main conversation without having to say you'll go get someone else to do it for you)

I'm tempted to assume that there is some reason beyond Morrigan wanting to raise the child alone that precludes the possibility of anyone else - especially a Warden - being involved. It may be something as simple as the Godchild going crazy around tainted individuals until it reaches maturity. Or maybe Morrigan and Flemeth are trying to fulfill some prophecy that is very clear about the child coming from a single-parent family. Or, I don't know, maybe she has to become a dragon and as such living around humans isn't going to be quite as fun as it used to be.

I just know I thought it was curious that, when my PC told Morrigan (despite having agreed not to previously) "I will find you Morrigan, i swear it" she simply said, "I... would not recommend it".

Sounds less like, "I don't want you there" and more like "I'm pretty worried about what would happen if you were"

[Alex Savchovsky]

Ulicus wrote...

I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. If you've romanced (and possibly if you've befriended her, too) her, it's pretty clear that she doesn't *want* to leave but - for whatever reason - *has* to leave. We don't know why this is. 

PC: "Morrigan, I don't want to lose you."
Morrigan: "Don't be a fool... I am already lost. I told you that you would regret this, did I not?" (wtte)
(Just a shame you can't get that exchange in the main conversation without having to say you'll go get someone else to do it for you)

I'm tempted to assume that there is some reason beyond Morrigan wanting to raise the child alone that precludes the possibility of anyone else - especially a Warden - being involved. It may be something as simple as the Godchild going crazy around tainted individuals until it reaches maturity. Or maybe Morrigan and Flemeth are trying to fulfill some prophecy that is very clear about the child coming from a single-parent family. Or, I don't know, maybe she has to become a dragon and as such living around humans isn't going to be quite as fun as it used to be.

I just know I thought it was curious that, when my PC told Morrigan (despite having agreed not to previously) "I will find you Morrigan, i swear it" she simply said, "I... would not recommend it".

Sounds less like, "I don't want you there" and more like "I'm pretty worried about what would happen if you were"

Excellent point really. And this would also make a strong story point. Yes, yes... the more I think, the more I like this theory.

[Crunchyinmilk]

Its still a selfish act. The soul/spirit of the unborn child died in your place and the body now houses the old god's spirit. Morrigan admits this. By performing the ritual you basically killed your own child to survive another 30 years. Its not called a Dark Ritual for nothing.



The Warden's may believe the only way to stop blights and defeat the darkspawn forever is to kill Archdemons. Morrigan's offer is just an intriguing alternative that offers some small proof that what a lot of people believe, is not necessarily true. At the very least there may be other, terrible as they may be, alternatives. With very interesting outcomes.



The blight its self is nicely mirrored by Zathrien's little problem. If you follow the mentality that all darkspawn and archdemon's must just be killed outright then I have to wonder if you just wiped out all the werewolves.



Or did you free their ancestors by confronting the instigator of their curse?



I'm looking forward to taking things up with the Maker in a sequel.

[FedericoV]

All we know about the blight, the darkspawn and the archdemon is based upon the teaching of the Chantry.



What if it's all or partially false? Any charachter could start to have doubts about the teachings of the Chantry after all the experience he has been thorugh. The maker could exist or not, but after all you've seen, who do you trust more?



The Chantry? Or Morrigain (that maybe is your true love)? I decided to trust more Morrigain than the Chantry. Not to say that the silent god of the chantry is quite selfish and vindicative himself having forgotten his child...



I think that it's not selfish or evil to fulfill the dark ritual. It's a choice that has its consequences. Maybe the consequences will be bad for you and Thedas but at least you give it a shot. Yes, it's blood magic and blood magic generally have bad consequences. But after all, even the joining itself is based upon some sort of Blood Magic.



Btw, I would love to have Morrigain child as a companion in DA:O 2 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...
 They never, AFAIK, become deformed hunchback creatures like Ruck or Hespith did. And in the meantime, they're immune to the taint.

Tehy never become that because they die fighting darskpawn. The taint begins to influence their minds and is allready influencing the body. If a warden doesn't die, what do you think would happen in a few years? The song/vpices would drive him mad...and what the taint would enventually do to him?

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
That is a false dilemma.  An Old God's soul in a human body is not nearly as troublesome as an Old God buried somewhere in the ground.  The darkspawn are the only ones likely to find the latter.  The former rests somewhere within human society.  You don't kill women just because they have a chance of becoming Broodmothers, so why would you kill the child?

Besides, that all depends on the supposition that the Archdemons really are Old Gods who have been tainted.  It may not even be the case.

Actaully no. The books clearly state that the darkspawn are drawn to the old gods. If it just switched the body, does it matter? The essence of hte old god is stil ltehre and it is what's calling for the darkspawn.

Even if you disregard that, you basicly killing your own child. Remeber - the essence/soul of hte old gods replaces it. TIs like Flemeths possesion of her daughters or abominations. The original person is gone.
Your'e basicly killing your own child (it's soul) with the ritual. It's not called a dark ritual for nothing.

[hawat333]

Performing the ritual is a dangerous road to walk. It cannot be considered as the pure/good/noble ending. We can't know what will happen when that child is born. It may poses a greater threat than the Blight itself.

On the other hand -out of practicality- there are three grey wardens left in Ferelden. We can't know for sure if the orders in other nations will help rebuild it. And another Blight will come eventually. May it is safer to preserve as many wardens as we can.

[Rainen89]

It's selfish yup, it's also human. Think of yourself as Zathrian and the werewolves as the future inhabitants of Thedas. Old gods aren't by definition evil, they are corrupted by darkspawn but if that's true then the child could be corrupted or possesed etc by Morrigan/Flemmeth in which case that's hardly a desirable situation. Frankly you should've been able to kill Morrigan if you refuse the plan.

[Ulicus]

Crunchyinmilk wrote...

Its still a selfish act. The soul/spirit of the unborn child died in your place and the body now houses the old god's spirit. Morrigan admits this. By performing the ritual you basically killed your own child to survive another 30 years. Its not called a Dark Ritual for nothing.

We don't know how the metaphysics of Thedas works.

Is "essence" the same thing as consciousness and/or soul? We don't know.

Does the soul exist at the moment of conception? Or does it enter the body on birth? Does reincarnation happen? We don't know.

Morrigan says only that this is an opportunity for an "ancient power to be reborn". That you've chosen to interpret "power" in the same sense of Planescape (aka, a conscious deity; a someone, as opposed to a something) is your presumption to make. (You may even be correct)

Still, add to that the fact that Morrigan explicitly states that "the child will not be hurt. It will be changed", and I think to suggest that the "original" child conceived is destroyed and replaced is a little premature.

To be honest, at present I see it more in terms of the child being "Urthemiel reborn" in the sense that he or she is the heir to his power.  There may be some degree of fusion, there, too.

Put simply, the very fact that Morrigan has to raise this child leads me to doubt any notion of the child coming packaged with Urthemiel's consciousness and memories... though one could argue for "reincarnation amnesia", I suppose.